Star Citizen: Chris Robert`s new space sim (the Wing Commander guy)

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irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
No but it is Pay 2 Win unfortunately. That one aspect bothers me a lot. Looking forward to the release but not looking forward to the none early investors having their ships outclassed.

How is it pay 2 win? Just because someone has an Idris doesn't mean they can rock the galaxy. Even if they can beat the other purchasable ships in a fight, they can be avoided/outrun.

There's a role for everyone and everything. If all you have is a basic Aurora then you're stuck with exploration and small scale trade, but you can work your way up. The game is set up to greatly reward those who expend time and effort, but that's true of any MMO.

And for disclosure, I'm an original backer and the biggest ship I have is an Aurora LN. I don't feel outclassed in the slightest, but I don't expect to be taking on bigger ships single handedly either.

If you need any further evidence, check out the RSI forums. More than a few people who bought Idrises are bitching about things like paying NPC crewmates, high insurance costs, and other things the devs have announced. These would be those people who thought they were paying to win, and then got slapped in the face.
 

Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
16,367
4
81
A really good pilot will even be able to disable that expensive ship and steal it for themselves...

You can steal other players ships?

So what's preventing me from letting a friend "steal" my super hornet, then have mine replaced with insurance?

Then we each have our very own super hornet.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
You can steal other players ships?

So what's preventing me from letting a friend "steal" my super hornet, then have mine replaced with insurance?

Then we each have our very own super hornet.

That would be called insurance fraud, and the devs have stated that such fraud will be punished if caught, just as it would in the real world.

Also stealing other peoples' ships outside of the lawless periphery is probably not the best idea. Devs have said that there will be "UEE police" in UEE space that act similarly to real life police. So if you steal a ship in UEE space you can expect to get swarmed by high powered NPCs.
 

Joeydubbs

Senior member
Jun 11, 2008
214
2
81
I see a lot of chatter on this board about gameplay, strategy, "skill" of flying your ship...are you guys in a closed beta actually playing or is this all pure speculation? I haven't found any video of gameplay on their website either, just a bunch of big dudes sitting around talking about what features are gonna be cool etc...am I missing something?
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
I see a lot of chatter on this board about gameplay, strategy, "skill" of flying your ship...are you guys in a closed beta actually playing or is this all pure speculation? I haven't found any video of gameplay on their website either, just a bunch of big dudes sitting around talking about what features are gonna be cool etc...am I missing something?

It's based off of the devs statements. The first bit of actual gameplay, via the dogfight module, will be available to backers in a couple of months. The game is still pre-alpha at this point, can't really expect to get gameplay.

That bunch of big dudes are the guys who are making the game, and they've said a lot more than "what features would be cool" via forum announcements and other methods. They've confirmed a Newtonian physics model, as well as the general roles of the ships, the lore/background of the various factions, the different rules regarding different regions of space, etc. There are a ton of details that have been made available. If we can't take their word, who's can we take? If Steve Jobs was still alive, would you refuse to take his word about Apple's next offering?

In any case, everyone talking about tactics, skill, etc is doing so with the unspoken acknowledgement that everything is preliminary, but unless the devs are baldfaced lying to us some of what we're coming up with will prove useful. In fact the devs have commented that some community suggestions have influenced development.
 
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Joeydubbs

Senior member
Jun 11, 2008
214
2
81
Thanks Irish, I'll check back when the dogfighting is available, hopefully this game delivers as this niche needs filling...

Keep in mind that those developer videos main purpose is marketing to attract donors. While I wouldn't say they are lying per se, they do seem to promise quite a bit...freelancer (a good game in its own right imo) made some pretty far reaching promises early on as well and we all know that finished product was far from Robert's initial vision...
 
Feb 4, 2009
34,703
15,951
136
**Finger Crossed** that graphics cards come down in price before the dog fighting module.
I'd love to walk around my hanger but I am not buying a new card for that.
 

ThinClient

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2013
3,980
4
0
This game is the next Duke Nukem Forever. The dude keeps promising more... and more... and more... but doesn't ever increase his team size so they'll never finish the project.

YEAH, DUDES, I'M TOTALLY RELEASING THE DOG FIGHTING MODULE IN DECEMBER 2012, IT'S GOING TO BE AWESOME, I PROMISE

2 months later

YEAH DUDES, I'M TOTALLY RELEASING THE DOG FIGHTING MODULE... AT SOME POINT, IT'S GOING TO BE AWESOME, I PROMISE
 

Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
16,367
4
81
This game is the next Duke Nukem Forever. The dude keeps promising more... and more... and more... but doesn't ever increase his team size so they'll never finish the project.

YEAH, DUDES, I'M TOTALLY RELEASING THE DOG FIGHTING MODULE IN DECEMBER 2012, IT'S GOING TO BE AWESOME, I PROMISE

2 months later

YEAH DUDES, I'M TOTALLY RELEASING THE DOG FIGHTING MODULE... AT SOME POINT, IT'S GOING TO BE AWESOME, I PROMISE

Ummm no. They have been totally transparent about the whole development process. Comparing it to DNF is absurd.
 

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
5
0
This game is the next Duke Nukem Forever. The dude keeps promising more... and more... and more... but doesn't ever increase his team size so they'll never finish the project.



You can go watch the videos on the site and see the new offices and the new hires they've made.
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,776
4
0
I haven't been keeping up with this at all.

All I know is a few months back I watched the trailers, read up on it a bit, and was totally sold on it. So I think I paid like the minimum or something.

I have absolutely no idea what's going on with it or if there's anything I can already play, or if I would want to if there is. Am I right in remembering that it's actually 2 games or something? One that just focuses on spaceship fights or something?

Can someone give me a little summary of where things stand with it? I get a lot of e-mails from them but never really look at them... it always just seems to be something about some new ship or something. I don't know what to make of them.
 

Fallen Kell

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,063
437
126
I see a lot of chatter on this board about gameplay, strategy, "skill" of flying your ship...are you guys in a closed beta actually playing or is this all pure speculation? I haven't found any video of gameplay on their website either, just a bunch of big dudes sitting around talking about what features are gonna be cool etc...am I missing something?

The devs have released footage of gameplay in the dog-fighter module already, and the dog fighter module is being polished some before release in the next couple weeks/months. They had originally planned to get it out by December, but felt that it rushed a couple parts which would have meant either they built some custom stuff which would then be thrown away or waited while they did it right the first time (they opted for not throwing away developer time).

Some of the footage was in various live streams and interviews with the devs working on certain aspects of it. The in ship UI/HUD designer interview shows a lot of footage if I recall.
 

Fallen Kell

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,063
437
126
This game is the next Duke Nukem Forever. The dude keeps promising more... and more... and more... but doesn't ever increase his team size so they'll never finish the project.

Yeah because somehow not hiring, recruiting, and contracting with multiple new companies, moving their Huston offices to a new building that is 8-10x the size of the last place (and already mostly filling it), along with "want ads" for hiring game graphics artists, release engineers, backend system engine designers, etc., doesn't count in your world of "not increase his team size".... If you actually went to the website you would see all of that....
 

Arglebargle

Senior member
Dec 2, 2006
892
1
81
Their PR and marketing has been stellar.....

I think they realize that they are making about a million a month with their present scheme. Delivering something that is actually concrete will interfere with the fantasy they are selling. Best to have it as polished as possible, of course, for the least interference with that golden spigot.

I expect Star Citizen will be buggy and late. As they have shown they can continue to rake in the dough in the interim, there's no sense bringing everyone down until as late as possible.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
This game is the next Duke Nukem Forever. The dude keeps promising more... and more... and more... but doesn't ever increase his team size so they'll never finish the project.

YEAH, DUDES, I'M TOTALLY RELEASING THE DOG FIGHTING MODULE IN DECEMBER 2012, IT'S GOING TO BE AWESOME, I PROMISE

2 months later

YEAH DUDES, I'M TOTALLY RELEASING THE DOG FIGHTING MODULE... AT SOME POINT, IT'S GOING TO BE AWESOME, I PROMISE

Jumping on the hater bandwagon? Because you clearly haven't been paying attention the dev's releases if that's what you actually think.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
Thanks Irish, I'll check back when the dogfighting is available, hopefully this game delivers as this niche needs filling...

Keep in mind that those developer videos main purpose is marketing to attract donors. While I wouldn't say they are lying per se, they do seem to promise quite a bit...freelancer (a good game in its own right imo) made some pretty far reaching promises early on as well and we all know that finished product was far from Robert's initial vision...

They have the funding to make big promises. As of this moment they have $37,997,688 in funding and are gaining $60,000-85,000 each day despite not adding any new incentives. And it's not like we have absolutely nothing. We've had the hanger module for months, so you can run around a hangar and look at/enter/explore any ships you've bought (that they've finished modeling). They've also shown multiple videos of assets in-engine/flying around, including this update explaining why the dogfight module was originally delayed, but showing the ship destruction system in action. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rez7Hy_BfPY

Someone even managed to hack the hangar module to enable people to fly around (albeit with horrendous controls).

The level of sheer transparency Chris Roberts and Co are showing is quite literally unprecedented for a video game. It even puts the kickstarters to shame.
 
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ThinClient

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2013
3,980
4
0
Jumping on the hater bandwagon? Because you clearly haven't been paying attention the dev's releases if that's what you actually think.

I stopped paying attention when they stopped coming through on their promises, admittedly.

Doesn't really matter. It's STILL two months late and STILL no dog fighting module, to say nothing of other modules promised.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
I stopped paying attention when they stopped coming through on their promises, admittedly.

Doesn't really matter. It's STILL two months late and STILL no dog fighting module, to say nothing of other modules promised.

Uh, we've had the hangar module for several months, and aside from the dogfight module they haven't passed any other deadlines yet. In any case game development isn't an exact science. Preliminary schedule is preliminary, and delays are inevitable. I, and according to forum polls the majority of the backers, would prefer they deliver a polished product as opposed to pushing out broken code to meet semi-arbitrary estimates made over a year earlier.

Now if the dogfight module isn't out by summer without valid explanation I'd have cause for concern, but what delays there have been thus far are inevitable and natural IMO; never mind the detailed explanations posted by the devs.
 

SithSolo1

Diamond Member
Mar 19, 2001
7,740
11
81
Well I went a head and built my SC rig back in Dec, hopefully it won't be too outdated by the time it comes out.

Once we're able to join multiple organizations I'll apply to the one you have running. I've got a few others a want to join but atm I'm running a small one for friends and family.

Dog fighting is currently slated for late April/early May.

Anyone following the The Next Great Starship?
 

Fallen Kell

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,063
437
126
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13610-Monthly-Report-February-2014

Some good information here, each studio is stating what they're working on and how many employees they have. Right now 103 for CIG and 109 contractors, so 212 total people working on the game now. A lot more than I thought.

That would be because you are listening to people like ThinClient.... There are actually more people working on this game than ANY space game ever released, and more than almost all AAA game titles. The average team size of a AAA title is around 80-100.

Yes, they are promising a lot. But they also have the funding and developers to actually deliver along with no arbitrary publisher deadlines to simply fill a hole in their planned releases for the year.
 

Arsinek

Senior member
Feb 9, 2010
599
0
0
Its interesting the people that seem to have a problem with this game. Whats funny is how they complain about it being vaporware, even though theyve already released something, and talking about how its going to fail because the dog fighting got pushed back. Youd think with all the games that fail because they get released before they are done people wouldnt be so butt hurt when something gets delayed. I dont have a problem with devs taking their time. Obviously I want things out as soon as possible but that doesnt mean I want them to release things that arnt done.

Then they talk about how they "havent seen anything" even though theres multiple videos that show games assets.

I guess its just human nature to hate.
 
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irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
Its interesting the people that seem to have a problem with this game. Whats funny is how they complain about it being vaporware, even though theyve already released something, and talking about how its going to fail because the dog fighting got pushed back. Youd think with all the games that fail because they get released before they are done people wouldnt be so butt hurt when something gets delayed. I dont have a problem with devs taking their time. Obviously I want things out as soon as possible but that doesnt mean I want them to release things that arnt done.

Then they talk about how they "havent seen anything" even though theres multiple videos that show games assets.

I guess its just human nature to hate.

I think it comes down to most people misunderstanding game development. They see a schedule and treat it like the 10 commandments, because the only schedules they've gotten before have been after a game has gone gold. Hopefully the surge of crowd-funded games will help with that.

The game is still pre-alpha, and the communications from CIG are amazing (10-for-the-chairmen on Monday, Wingman's Hangar on Wednesday, The Next Great Starship on Friday). We're talking hundreds if not thousands of hours of communication on the state of the game, all of it quality. Honestly anyone who's complaining has their head up their ass.
 

BrightCandle

Diamond Member
Mar 15, 2007
4,762
0
76
I can see why people are wary of this sort of development model, its really not been used with games so far. Its also had quite a few failures on Kickstarter that didn't deliver so there is a reason to be concerned.

The software industry changed quite a lot in the last decade with web software. Websites don't have any need for version numbers and most companies running websites moved to continuous delivery. That typically means they update changes to the site on a very regular basis, as much as every hour or faster and the change never comes with any update documentation or big version number change. New features just sort of appear. Continuous delivery matches the development really works at its core, we developers make small pieces and include them into the product on a daily basis and in the end the accumulation of these changes makes a final product. But on websites we don't need to make the final product every 12 months, we can release it whenever we like.

A number of companies have pushed the concept to client software as well. Chrome is a classic example as no one ever knows what version they on, the software auto updates in the background and usually you don't even know its happened, you just start it the next day and its changed. Occasionally you get a prompt to restart and that is about it. Well games can be done that way as well, and a number of games have been getting developed in that way in the last few years (project cars, Minecraft). They aren't super agile, like daily or hourly but weekly or biweekly is quite common. The main point is they don't wait until they have the game finished, they release what they have and smaller and bigger features roll out when ready.

What is interesting is the only companies able to do this are the ones funded by the customers and not by the publishers. Big publishers see this early access with continuous feedback from the customers as a risk to the schedule so they aren't interested. Yet its interesting that most of the companies doing crowd funding are trying this model, but not all. The guys making the syndicate remake for example have various insights into how they are getting certain things done but its reasonably irregular. When compared to the constant feedback cycle of star citizen its positively archaic.

Star citizen is still early, they are not at the Minimal viable product stage yet. What that means is there isn't a game or thing to play. They developed the hangar module, that worked and since they have been updating it continuously. Once the dogfight module is out they will do the same thing, it will start its cycle of feedback. You need a minimal product to be able to get feedback otherwise the discussions are never ending. Its not 100% in the spirit of agile development but its about as good as a game like Star citizen can get. They fill the gap with questions, comments, design discussion videos etc that show you their thinking so you can feedback on what they said.

None of this means they will deliver a game, but the contents information and decisions does build confidence that they know what they are doing. Agile requires confidence in the team and its built by continuous delivery of product, and in this case by talking about the building of their MVP.

I don't like the way the funding has been partially used to produce an early Pay 2 win scheme, I am still worried the very expensive ships will give others an early advantage. But I can't fault the way they are going about development so far, its not dissimilar to what I recommend all my clients do.
 
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