Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviews *SPOILERS*

[zinfamous]

That will probably make me hate this trilogy ALMOST as much as I hate episodes 1-3. They've set him down the path of the dark side and added an exclamation mark by having him kill Han. Redeeming him at the end will basically say these three movies meant nothing because he wasn't a bad guy at all and we've all wasted our time because nothing really happened except some explosions and characters dying. A redeeming act at the end of his life doesn't justify all the bad things that he did/caused before.

EDIT: I'm giving Ep 7 a lot of passes regarding plot lines because I can understand the position that they want to establish new characters and recreate the wonders of the original trilogy (eps 4-6) for a new generation. They did homage/stole/whatever some plot lines from the episode 4, but the only way the story in episode 7 can stand by itself is by setting itself as the story of how Ren is indeed accepting his path to the Dark Side. Not just cramming a mirror of Vader's progression to evil and then redemption from eps 1-6 into 3 movies.

What if episode 9 ends with him killing Rey? (After killing Luke in episode 8)

Wouldn't that be something?

 

[Eug]

But realize the whole point of Ren is that you're supposed to sort of like him... he's a Solo for God's sake. He's NOT pure evil -- that is why he struggles throughout the movie.

He WILL be redeemed by the end of EP9 -- most likely by the hand of Rey. They are relatives of some sort, and together they will overthrow Snoke. You're not supposed to hate Ren. You're supposed to, and will end up cheering for him in the end as Snoke and the First Order is defeated.

If they make him "hateable" now, then you will never cheer for him.

be prepared for another "copy" of EP6 -- were Vader... I mean Ren is redeemed in the end.

I don't like him at all. I want to punch him in the face.

Not because he's a bad guy, but because he's an emo twit.

Perhaps that's why he wears the mask, so other people don't punch him in his emo twit face.

 

[Charmonium]

It's not even that as I agree with most the "Lucas raped my childhood" vitriol from the prequels (because he did!) If people are arguing over masks and capes and incredibly nitpicky things that have been more than prevalent in the FANTASY series since beginning to end, than it just proves they have very little to find at fault with EP7

I guess you're late to this thread. There have been many other nits picked here. The mask/cape thing is just the most recent.

Personally I enjoy these sorts of discussions because it gives you insight into how other people perceive the same thing that you do. I think that's fascinating.

Granted that there are always going biases and fanboys, but that doesn't mean you can't still have an interesting discussion.

 

[Kev]

But then it shouldn't be called Episode 7. I wouldn't mind if it got rebooted as a New Hope isn't as easy to watch as it once was.

LOL I'm sure all the star wars nerds out there would just LOVE a full "reboot"

 

[Kev]

Yep. It's a continuation of the "Lucas raped my childhood" vitriol from the prequels. Warms my heart to watch nerds thrash over something so ridiculous.

No I think it's more that people think being contrarian makes them interesting.

 

[Eug]

LOL I'm sure all the star wars nerds out there would just LOVE a full "reboot"

I just want the original pre-CGI IV, V, and VI on Blu-ray.

 

[Chiropteran]

nothing really happened except some explosions and characters dying.

Pretty much sums up every great action movie in existence. Why do you make it sound like it's some bad thing?

 

[Sonikku]

Some Sonikku observations:

-Luke has more lines in the trailer than in the movie.

-More people die in Disney's Star Wars movie than in every other Star Wars movie combined.

 

[destrekor]

That will probably make me hate this trilogy ALMOST as much as I hate episodes 1-3. They've set him down the path of the dark side and added an exclamation mark by having him kill Han. Redeeming him at the end will basically say these three movies meant nothing because he wasn't a bad guy at all and we've all wasted our time because nothing really happened except some explosions and characters dying. A redeeming act at the end of his life doesn't justify all the bad things that he did/caused before.

EDIT: I'm giving Ep 7 a lot of passes regarding plot lines because I can understand the position that they want to establish new characters and recreate the wonders of the original trilogy (eps 4-6) for a new generation. They did homage/stole/whatever some plot lines from the episode 4, but the only way the story in episode 7 can stand by itself is by setting itself as the story of how Ren is indeed accepting his path to the Dark Side. Not just cramming a mirror of Vader's progression to evil and then redemption from eps 1-6 into 3 movies.

So you'd hate the new trilogy if Ren is redeemed in any way, just because he killed Solo?

You must hate the original trilogy then, because Vader killed, among many others, Obi Wan Kenobi, who was his chief mentor before he turned to the dark side. It is in many ways very similar, as a mentor of that capacity is quite like a father. But, he was redeemed at the end. So, terrible trilogy, right? After all that time as a bad guy, killing people, up to no good? And then he gets to called good at the end? What a terrible story!

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I don't like him at all. I want to punch him in the face.

Not because he's a bad guy, but because he's an emo twit.

Perhaps that's why he wears the mask, so other people don't punch him in his emo twit face.

I think he suffers from affluenza.

About planet killers always having a weakness; it is cool with me. Insanity by Einstein's definition; They are insane. Throw in a dash of hubris, and I'm good.

The cloaks and capes fit the knights and monks theme, again, I'm good with it. The first order has the Knights Templar true order feel to it. And Solo carries a light saber that lends to the imagery.

The storyline is about how history has a tendency to repeat itself.

Vader's redemption is analogous to Christianity. Accept Christ and your sins are washed away. All those dastardly deeds forgiven. If they redeem young Solo, it would not surprise me.

For chronology, the films feel like the following to me. 1-3 Roman Empire. There is the era of Arthurian mythology in 4-6. Now, we are in the Crusades era.

 

[Indus]

I finally watched it yesterday.. mixed feelings.. way better than prequels. Very cool way to bring Luke Skywalker back in the fray.. interesting take on the cantina (sorta felt like episode 4 all over again).. incredible that Finn could hold his own against a Sith for a while when Vader would have just owned him.

Overall if I hadn't seen 1-6 it'd be 10/10 but since I have maybe 8.5/10. Looking forward to episodes 8 and 9!

 

[Aikouka]

So, Screen Junkies had a Movie Fight a week or so ago that was all Star Wars based, and one of the questions was to pitch an Episode VIII plot. I thought one of the pitches was actually fairly interesting (you can see it here -- time-code included). What do you think?

 

[gorcorps]

I finally watched it yesterday.. mixed feelings.. way better than prequels. Very cool way to bring Luke Skywalker back in the fray.. interesting take on the cantina (sorta felt like episode 4 all over again).. incredible that Finn could hold his own against a Sith for a while when Vader would have just owned him.

Overall if I hadn't seen 1-6 it'd be 10/10 but since I have maybe 8.5/10. Looking forward to episodes 8 and 9!

I know it's splitting hairs, but the Sith died when the emperor did. He was the last one.

Abrams told Empire in August 2015, "Kylo Ren is not a Sith. He works under Supreme Leader Snoke, who is a powerful figure on the Dark Side of the Force."[1] Abrams had previously told Entertainment Weekly that the character "came to the name Kylo Ren when he joined a group called the Knights of Ren."

 

[destrekor]

I finally watched it yesterday.. mixed feelings.. way better than prequels. Very cool way to bring Luke Skywalker back in the fray.. interesting take on the cantina (sorta felt like episode 4 all over again).. incredible that Finn could hold his own against a Sith for a while when Vader would have just owned him.

Overall if I hadn't seen 1-6 it'd be 10/10 but since I have maybe 8.5/10. Looking forward to episodes 8 and 9!

Vader would have just used the force to knock him about just because. Ren has this need to prove himself, and so he felt that a good ol' fashioned ass kicking by way of light saber would be enough, bring out the force when necessary.

And I think his force powers are still very limited - he doesn't seem to be interested in force pushes or anything like that, seemingly content with only using the force to probe minds. He only once lifts/retrieves something using the force, unless I am mistaken. Oh, wait, there was the frozen blast from a blaster at the beginning. I think that's it. He didn't even choke a bitch.

Right now, he has the hallmark youth rebellion thing going on: he has his idolization with infamy and past infamous figures; he's trying to prove himself; he's doing things like killing his father simply because it helps convince himself he can be infamous; and as routinely mentioned in this thread, he has an image problem. He is the definition of an immature rebel.

He's still relatively low in the ranks - the commander of his ship seems to be on equal footing with Ren. They both go before the Supreme Leader as apparent equals, and upon further reading, it appears he isn't truly in the First Order hierarchy, rather, just going along for his own purposes and helping out when he feels like it. The military is wary of him, and I think put up with him simply to appease Snoke.

In fact, take a look at this:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kylo_Ren

His helmet isn't even a personal obsession so much as a part of the Knights of Ren (from which he took the surname Ren), so it seems all the recent discussion is moot (well it already was in the first place, alas, here we are).

 

[paperfist]

What if episode 9 ends with him killing Rey? (After killing Luke in episode 8)

Wouldn't that be something?

So there wouldn't be an episode 10?

----

How come Princess Leia Organa isn't a Jedi?

 

[JEDI]

How come Princess Leia Organa isn't a Jedi?

who said she isn't?
think about it

 

[Kelvrick]

What if episode 9 ends with him killing Rey? (After killing Luke in episode 8)

Wouldn't that be something?

I'd be ok with that. I bet nobody would see that coming out of a Disney movie!

Pretty much sums up every great action movie in existence. Why do you make it sound like it's some bad thing?

I don't agree with that. Alien, and then Aliens had some kind of movement forward regarding Ripley. Terminator and Terminator 2 had John Conner surviving and then Arnold's self sacrifice. Explosions with nothing happening are the run of the mill summer movies by Michael Bay (although I love The Rock).

So you'd hate the new trilogy if Ren is redeemed in any way, just because he killed Solo?

You must hate the original trilogy then, because Vader killed, among many others, Obi Wan Kenobi, who was his chief mentor before he turned to the dark side. It is in many ways very similar, as a mentor of that capacity is quite like a father. But, he was redeemed at the end. So, terrible trilogy, right? After all that time as a bad guy, killing people, up to no good? And then he gets to called good at the end? What a terrible story!

To me, the way that original trilogy did it made it better with Vader already being an evil presence who shows he did have some good in him at the end. Episode 7 is building Ren's story as his path into the dark side. Doing the same thing with Ren would make it too similar to what they did in episodes 1-3 to Vader and just crosses the line for me in rehashing the same story. Not only from the generic action movie hero plot line, but within the same universe. And not even in a clever plot twist way, but in a "I'm staring at your deformed helmet and will follow you to the dark side and turn away at the last second and sacrifice myself" kind of way.

 

[Phoenix86]

Would you hire/respect a grown man who dresses up in a costume everyday to emulate his idol?!

 

[Phoenix86]

No one is buying it, but we continue to be puzzled and mildly humored at your uninformed flailing about on such an infantile non-issue as this sith lord wearing a mask.

Also, what do you have to say about these guys?

It's even more stupid when you consider the Fetts. I mean it's stupid on it's own merit, but there's literally another identical example with Jango Fett.

 

[CZroe]

You seem to think that Sith Lords are supposed to be bankers on planet earth. They are not.

This is a fantasy film, first and foremost. It has always been a fantasy franchise. Masks have been rather prevalent from the beginning of the series and through the decades of what was considered canon and now non-canon.

None of us can fathom why you choose to commit the fallacy of ignoring the reality of the world presented in this fantasy setting and ascribe the social values of the world you see in daily life.

It makes no sense, and smacks of an obstinate refusal to analyze and appreciate content for what it is. You're also picking a fight that no logical viewer of this content would think is worth picking.

You seem to know better than everyone, including the creators, what the denizens of the Star Wars galaxy consider "Respectable," "terrifying," "worthy of leadership."

No one is buying it, but we continue to be puzzled and mildly humored at your uninformed flailing about on such an infantile non-issue as this sith lord wearing a mask.

Masks and armor and "pointless regalia" (often used to inspire dread and respect) has long been a staple of classical mythology and epic tales--what Star Wars is primarily inspired by. I can't honestly fathom why you make this very same argument for why a useless cape is acceptable in this world, yet masks or not. One might request that you settle down and consider your blatant contradictions, but we all know that you won't. You're history around here is rather...profound.

But please, ignore every explanation presented to you with your repeated "I know what is right in this fantasy world and you don't" 7th grade argument.

Also, what do you have to say about these guys?

LOL! You've got it completely backwards. I'm making fun of how obstinate people who accept that kind of BS are. I'm not "ignoring" those explanations: I'M CRITICIZING THEM. That was my original point.

They aren't bankers on planet Earth, but they sure as sh-- operate in a hierarchical rank-and-file military organization complete with everything from leaders to special ops to officers to pilots to foot soldiers to sanitation workers. Kylo Ren clearly isn't the leader's only right-hand man. Others in the org clearly feel like they can challenge or contradict him. It doesn't sound like they even have to worry about him Force-choking them!

You're damned right that masks have been prevalent in the series and I'm damned-right that those masks have always been about functionality (Vader's keeps him alive; stormtroopers' protect them in combat). I'm not saying that it sticks out because it's a mask, I'm saying it sticks out because he's wearing it without a functional reason. "Because grandpa pot wore a mask and I want to emulate/channel him" is-wait for it... A STUPID REASON. The fantasy setting doesn't change that because it doesn't even make sense within that setting except to man-children who lap that crap up. I bet you had no problem with that line about "They filter toxins but not gas!" because you just eat it all up

If you can't figure out why I would say that "pointless regalia" is acceptable in this fantasy setting and the mask isn't then, well, I'm baffled because the answer is right there. "...in this fantasy setting." In this fantasy setting and in historical reality to some extent capes have been established as normal for high-ranking and powerful characters while masks with no other purpose than to idolize grandpappy have not. Pretty clear. I am paying attention to the fantasy setting but it seems that you are willing to incorporate new nonsense that doesn't jive with established canon at the drop of a hat... with a simplistic reason that only a child would readily accept (normally).

Grow up. Be more discriminating. It was stupid. Don't let sloppy filmmakers get away with that kind of storytelling or pretty soon all of our entertainment will be as nonsensical as a generic cartoon with poor writing. We keep paying and any objection is quickly ridiculed/shamed, so why wouldn't they keep pulling this crap?

 

[Balt]

I'm so disappointed we never got to see these guys do anything but stand around. They're supposed to be an elite guard unit, but they were basically just ornaments.

 

[paperfist]

who said she isn't?
think about it

She's a Skywalker so the potential is there. I don't recall her playing any mind tricks or wielding a light saber though.

 

[destrekor]

LOL! You've got it completely backwards. I'm making fun of how obstinate people who accept that kind of BS are. I'm not "ignoring" those explanations: I'M CRITICIZING THEM. That was my original point.

They aren't bankers on planet Earth, but they sure as sh-- operate in a hierarchical rank-and-file military organization complete with everything from leaders to special ops to officers to pilots to foot soldiers to sanitation workers. Kylo Ren clearly isn't the leader's only right-hand man. Others in the org clearly feel like they can challenge or contradict him. It doesn't sound like they even have to worry about him Force-choking them!

You're damned right that masks have been prevalent in the series and I'm damned-right that those masks have always been about functionality (Vader's keeps him alive; stormtroopers' protect them in combat). I'm not saying that it sticks out because it's a mask, I'm saying it sticks out because he's wearing it without a functional reason. "Because grandpa pot wore a mask and I want to emulate/channel him" is-wait for it... A STUPID REASON. The fantasy setting doesn't change that because it doesn't even make sense within that setting except to man-children who lap that crap up. I bet you had no problem with that line about "They filter toxins but not gas!" because you just eat it all up

If you can't figure out why I would say that "pointless regalia" is acceptable in this fantasy setting and the mask isn't then, well, I'm baffled because the answer is right there. "...in this fantasy setting." In this fantasy setting and in historical reality to some extent capes have been established as normal for high-ranking and powerful characters while masks with no other purpose than to idolize grandpappy have not. Pretty clear. I am paying attention to the fantasy setting but it seems that you are willing to incorporate new nonsense that doesn't jive with established canon at the drop of a hat... with a simplistic reason that only a child would readily accept (normally).

Grow up. Be more discriminating. It was stupid. Don't let sloppy filmmakers get away with that kind of storytelling or pretty soon all of our entertainment will be as nonsensical as a generic cartoon with poor writing. We keep paying and any objection is quickly ridiculed/shamed, so why wouldn't they keep pulling this crap?

I'm... just going to quote this and laugh. :biggrin:

I don't care if you like the movie or not. I don't care if anyone does. Well, at least enough people to create sales and justify further movies in the franchise, but you can sit it out, we won't mind.

Talk about obstinate. All you wish to do is deride the film instead of accepting that, in this very series, it is established as acceptable. Plain and simple. The end. Let it go. There is now a whole order, called the Knights of Ren (from which Kylo Ren got his new name), that appear to also wear helmets.

And if you wish to claim that the helmets for stormtroopers and bounty hunters - and various other characters - are purely functional, let's take a step back: how are they more functional than the helmets that the Knights of Ren wear? Are those not functional? If one helmet can protect their face during battle, why not another one?

You're drawing lines in the sand and making the evidence conform to your conclusion. Stop it. That's childish. People wouldn't hire someone who acts that way. Wait a minute... :hmm:

Realize that we too are criticizing your critiques: they are baseless and founded upon the notion that, apparently, the original trilogy is next to godliness, and anything else must be trash by their very nature, and so now you cherry pick your evidence to support your bias.

No, I will not argue that all of your assertions thus far are incorrect. Rather, I am calling out this helmet nonsense. Yes, the movie drew heavily from the prior series, but let's be honest... they had to start somewhere, and what better way than to take a previously successful format and adapt it to a new plot and new characters. With that in mind, they actually created a perfect story to justify how it went down. A lot of the background story that helps sell the movie is unfortunately not in the movie, but this gave them a starting point from which to grow in the coming sequels. If they skipped this part of the story and jumped ahead, it would have been ever more of a mess.

Sticking to the idea of jumping ahead 30+ years from the last story required them to get creative. I think they did a perfectly fine job. A perfect film? No. Great? Yes. And it can be all but guaranteed that the sequels will outshine The Force Awakens, but not without having TFA create the starting point for new heroes.

Also, one could argue that there must be entirely original story lines for every single story arc in the series, but let's remember something here: history repeats itself far too often in reality, even when the bad guys should have learned something from their predecessors. More importantly, this is a fantasy series with major themes of good vs evil, maturation, redemption, and revenge. Do you honestly suggest they should make a new trilogy that doesn't have all of those themes? What would a Star Wars movie be without those very central themes and tenets?

And frankly, I actually believe they ARE taking this in a new direction. It was said that Snoke chose to train Ben Solo because of both his lineage and his balance between the light and dark side. He didn't want to take someone purely evil. Snoke comes from more of a military conquest background, and has less in common with the Sith. He plays the dark side and wishes to reclaim what was once the Empire, but might be more calm and collected about things, and is almost certainly not catering to the Rule of Two that the Sith mostly stuck to.

But where it will once again follow in the theme/format of the original trilogy, is in the idea of the idea of the Jedi returning, giving meaning to new heroes and vanquishing their enemies. In the prequel trilogy, there were numerous Jedi, then Anakin came and helped destroy everything, nearly exterminating the entire Jedi order. Then the Jedi were down to two, both in exile, and they had to train an apprentice who would need to destroy the Emperor and Darth Vader. Now, yet again, the Jedi are essentially extinct, with one in exile and the dark side taking over the galaxy. What is there to do in the story now? Why, it sounds like we'll need some heroes to be trained in order to fight the new rising empire. But I expect there will be shakeups along the way. There are other villains to be introduced, and the structure of the current dark side users might be a bit different. This balance of light and dark within Ben Solo may very well lead to a redemption, but I suspect if it happens it will be toward the end of VIII, leaving him to possibly help take down the other villains in IX alongside Rey and potentially someone else. I wouldn't doubt if they introduce another Jedi, but if they do, they might be introducing too many characters and/or character changes that might dilute the overall character stories they are currently building.


In other words, be at peace for now, and expect bigger things to come. I can bet that it will not be a retread, but there will, by necessity, exist similarities in theme.

 

[Phoenix86]

LOL! You've got it completely backwards. I'm making fun of how obstinate people who accept that kind of BS are.

Did... Did you just use the I'm rubber and you're glue argument?

 

[zinfamous]

I'd be ok with that. I bet nobody would see that coming out of a Disney movie!

That would actually be awesome, and I think would satisfy the need for a real Darth Vader origin--he was supposed to ruthlessly murder everything at the end of episode whatever but he didn't. No one even cared about the other people--even if he did murder them, so what?

Honestly, I was kinda hoping he would kill Ewan McGregor because he was goddamn awful. Made me hate Obi-Wan. (again, not blaming Ewan for that one)