Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviews *SPOILERS*

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foghorn67

Lifer
Jan 3, 2006
11,885
53
91
I have a wild hunch. There is a huge sense of evil that hasn't been fully fleshed out yet. I don't think Luke went to exile himself on Kylo's betrayal alone. I think we are in for a shock.
My guess, Grand Master Snoke is just a hologram. Someone else is puppeting the First Order and Kylo. Kylo is just another Darth Maul/Dooku victim. But we will see Kylo get some closure either redeeming or tragic. He is a Solo after all.
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,582
2,946
136
After the clones massacred all other Jedi, yes, apparently.

Or those who felt the Force had the good sense to lay low because they knew they'd be murdered.


Also: In the video games, right after they blow up the 2nd Death Star Luke starts another Jedi Academy and has tons of students.

I do NOT know what happened between the video games and The Force Awakens. So theres a huge gap in story and plot right there.
Star Wars rebels, which I think takes place between III and IV, has a couple of people who are sensitives - Ezra, Kanan and Ahsoka for example (Ahsoka I think was Anakin's padawan in Clone wars). Plus the various Sith like the Inquisitor.

And in the Clone Wars series, didn't they talk about how people are endowed with force abilities? Can't remember.

So there are constantly humans and aliens being born with varying levels of ability.
 

Udgnim

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2008
3,664
111
106
I have a wild hunch. There is a huge sense of evil that hasn't been fully fleshed out yet. I don't think Luke went to exile himself on Kylo's betrayal alone. I think we are in for a shock.
My guess, Grand Master Snoke is just a hologram. Someone else is puppeting the First Order and Kylo. Kylo is just another Darth Maul/Dooku victim. But we will see Kylo get some closure either redeeming or tragic. He is a Solo after all.

someone threw out Leia being on the dark side

although I can't imagine Kylo Ren going dark side without having physically met Snoke
 

Phoenix86

Lifer
May 21, 2003
14,643
9
81
So there are constantly humans and aliens being born with varying levels of ability.

This. Sure, being related to someone with it helps, but anyone can basically "gain" it naturally. Akin to a regressive or dominate gene.
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,582
2,946
136
This. Sure, being related to someone with it helps, but anyone can basically "gain" it naturally. Akin to a regressive or dominate gene.
That's one of the cool things about Star Wars. It has certain parallels with Zen. Mainly the idea that if you train hard enough, you can eventually become enlightened. Although in Zen, even if you don't become enlightened in this life, your pursuit of enlightenment will guarantee your rebirth on a higher plane of existence where it will be much easier to reach nirvana.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,518
5,340
136
I think the end result of the back story is that it was so hamfisted and failed on every single beat that it was better off if they had never been made--if those movies were the only option. Vader was far, far, far better with an undefined origin after those disasters.

My buddy tried convincing me that Kylo is a compelling villain with this video, but I ain't buying it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR1e4idmvWY

On paper, sure, it makes sense, and I know that JJ is trying to show the growth of a villain (Kylo) as well as the growth of a hero (Rey), whereas the originals only showed the growth of a hero (Luke). But in the movie, it fell flat imo. I think there should have been two changes:

1. Kylo only reveals his face when Han asks him to take off the mask. Then it would have gone from this dude with a scary voice the whole movie to a young kid with a dad, which would have had more shock value because then you see it's a kid with a struggle (a situation in which I would be much more apt to accept his young, unscarred looks), whereas when he took off his helmet in the interrogation room, all I could think about was that his hair should have been in an Herbal Essence commercial

2. It should have been both Han & Leia trying to talk some sense into Kylo. Then he should have moved to stab Han, but Leia jumped in front of him & died instead. THAT would have been shocking, because when Han died, I thought "wow, why would the director do that" instead of "why did Kylo Ren do that, he's so bad!". If he had killed his mom OTOH, holy crap! Even bad guys don't kill their moms! And that would have given Kylo more of an opportunity to choose the dark side...Han holding Leia as her last breath escapes, Kylo looking on, frozen & mortified in shock, but then seeing Ren clamp down on his feelings and decide well, this is where I've gone completely over to the dark side. That would have been an amazing way to develop him as a villain...not just because he killed his mother, but because he decided that he was unrepentant about it...and that moment was when he made the choice, so you could have seen the birth of a true villain.

And maybe, maybe just to top it off, as Han stares at him in horror & disbelief, Kylo straightens up, makes eye contact with Han with the thousand-yard stare of a man who has crossed the line physically & mentally and is now committed to his (evil) cause, takes a fighting stance, whips out his lightsaber, and beheads Han...and both Han & Leia's body falls into the endless pit as Kylo stands there, chest heaving, firm in his decision that he is now completely on the side of darkness. Meanwhile, Rey & Finn stare on in disbelief, cementing their knowledge that Kylo is in fact a horrible bad guy. This is basically what Vader brought to the table for audiences...he was a Real Bad Dude. He looked scary, he talked scary, he acted scary...he did things that made you realize who he was. I didn't get that vibe from their development of Darth Emo in TFA, whereas the method above would have made me go HOLY CRAP! And be super excited to see how he behaves in the next one now that he's past his questioning-himself phase.

But of course, they would never do that because, after all, this is Disney. That's why Mars Needs Moms tanked - Disney is for kids, and kids don't want to see their moms taken away. But can you imagine how awesome that kind of ending would have been? Number one, Kylo would BE a bad guy now, not just an emo whiner throwing hissy fits with his lightsaber (which was the whole problem with Captain Phasma, she never did anything super awesome or evil, and was a total pushover when she got taken hostage). Number two, it would have immortalized Han & Leia both in the canon & IRL. It would have given both of them an amazing ending & wonderful "out" - they each died a hero's death trying to save their son, but now they're not stuck being old actors in a revamped movie franchise. The fans would be ecstatic about their roles because they performed well, were written well, and really added to the movie...a movie that wasn't afraid to kill off people we love (and do it in an awesome way). As it stands, they killed off Han, who was really the heart of the original movies, and nobody really cared that Kylo did it...we were all just miffed that they took out Han in the very first new movie!
 
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Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,582
2,946
136
One of the things the original movie did that they didn't capture very well here was the scale of the evil. Here you had Ren kill some villagers. OK, definitely villain territory but hardly super-villain.

In the original, you had Vader taunting Leia with the destruction of Alderan. And then when it happened you had that great scene with Yoda feeling a disturbance in the force.

Here, when they destroyed Hoth, they didn't really do anything to convey the magnitude of what had happened. I think they showed one closeup of a character. But no one who had been introduced to the audience died and we didn't even have an indirect connection through a character like Leia.

So in that respect, the original did a much better job of conveying emotion.
 

paperfist

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2000
6,517
280
126
www.the-teh.com
After the clones massacred all other Jedi, yes, apparently.

Or those who felt the Force had the good sense to lay low because they knew they'd be murdered.


Also: In the video games, right after they blow up the 2nd Death Star Luke starts another Jedi Academy and has tons of students.

I do NOT know what happened between the video games and The Force Awakens. So theres a huge gap in story and plot right there.

But didn't the massacre take place before Star Wars? I guess the Knights of Ren did it again, but still the galaxy is massive.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,518
5,340
136
Here, when they destroyed Hoth, they didn't really do anything to convey the magnitude of what had happened. I think they showed one closeup of a character. But no one who had been introduced to the audience died and we didn't even have an indirect connection through a character like Leia.

So in that respect, the original did a much better job of conveying emotion.

I think the only part that really hit home for me on the Death Star 3 was when, I believe it was Finn, looked up and saw the red bolt flying through the sky. It had a good angle and the music hit just right and I thought that was probably the best reaction shot of that whole situation.

I wish they had put in just one scene explaining the planet they blew up. All they did was mention in passing that it was the HQ of the galaxy or something, but I wish they had done like a Leia scene where she was explaining to someone how even though they had crushed the Empire twenty years ago, the rebellion-turned-Republic was still a fledgling government and how causing instability of it (nevermind completely wiping it out) by the new bad guys would cause chaos for the citizens universe as it would turn into the wild west again, with no central government. Then I'd have a reason to understand what was at risk and why it should feel bad that they got blown up...their life's work would be destroyed & it would be an enormous intergalactic setback for all of the citizens of the galaxy. With no one coordinating the forces of good, evil would have their chance at a monopoly again.
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,547
2,759
136
Rey is a Kenobi: The Case for Why She’s Obi Wan’s Granddaughter:

Similarities:

1. British accent (note that Finn is British IRL & has an American accent in TFA)
2. Obi-Wan's voice is heard in the lightsaber flashback
3. Same clothes & boots
4. Both are dope @ Jedi mind tricks

This would be sooooo lame.

1. Maybe Daisy Ridley just doesn't have a good American accent.
2. So is Yoda's, does that mean she's related to him, too?
3. People in desert climates all tend to wear the same thing: whatever won't give you heat stroke.
4. So was Luke in RotJ.

Obi-wan went through all of 4-6 under the impression that Luke was the only hope left for the Jedi. One would think that if he'd had a kid he wouldn't have been so desperate. An unknown child? 100% out of character for him.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
I also feel it's obvious that most of what you don't understand in this movie is likely to be explained by the story in the next one. Probably not directly, but a lot more stuff will make sense. I really like the set-up of Kylo Ren being left alive and he will probably make the full jump to the dark side now, given that he killed his father and now has some type of redemption to work towards for himself.

I'm pretty sure most people understand that, and technically, there's nothing wrong with presenting incomplete content in a movie to answer it in a later sequel. However, you can't do it too much or present content that's too weak to stand on its own, or else people are going to go away asking more questions than getting answers. In a way, this is kind of the problem that we have with the young adult novels and their final book being split into two movies.

What was the part of the script or writing that you found better in any of the other SW films? Even Episode V which is almost universally considered the best of the series wasn't really particularly well written.

I feel like I have to keep repeating myself on this point... even if you think the movie's script/writing isn't any worse than one that came before it, why is it unacceptable to expect anything better after over 30 years of more cinema to use as comparisons? Do we look at a Transformers movie and say, "Well, the script isn't any worse than the last one!", and simply give it a pass? Hell no! We tear that shit to shreds!
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
167
106
Also: In the video games, right after they blow up the 2nd Death Star Luke starts another Jedi Academy and has tons of students.

I do NOT know what happened between the video games and The Force Awakens. So theres a huge gap in story and plot right there.
You can relax about the video games. They're all non-canonical. Excluding the new books, all you need to worry about is the first 6 movies, the 2008 Clone Wars series, and the new Rebels series. The books have a very, very quick treatment of what happened between 6 and 7, but Lucasfilm has by and large left that untouched so far. No one is meant to know what happened between 6 and 7 at this time.

This. Sure, being related to someone with it helps, but anyone can basically "gain" it naturally. Akin to a regressive or dominate gene.
And keep in mind that the Jedi don't have kids, so passing on force sensitivity ala the Skywalker clan doesn't normally happen. Instead the Jedi (and the Sith) go out and find force-sensitive children.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,982
3,318
126
My bet is that Kylo Ren goes full commando and turns out to be the dreaded Darth Ronald McDonald!! What a whopper of a story line that would be.......
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
82,854
17,365
136
Star Wars rebels, which I think takes place between III and IV, has a couple of people who are sensitives - Ezra, Kanan and Ahsoka for example (Ahsoka I think was Anakin's padawan in Clone wars). Plus the various Sith like the Inquisitor.

And in the Clone Wars series, didn't they talk about how people are endowed with force abilities? Can't remember.

So there are constantly humans and aliens being born with varying levels of ability.


In Jedi Academy there was a staff which could infuse normal people with the Force. That took place shortly after Episode 6 and a long time before Episode 7. But as I recall, it was destroyed and everybody was either killed, or rounded up for retraining.
They were also trying to make armor that could resist lightsabers but I dont know what became of that.
 

morpheus305

Member
Jan 31, 2010
180
0
0

Just imagine if someone picked apart the originals in the same manner as this guy does with the prequels. Yes there are flaws with the originals and lots of them. In fact you can tear apart any movie if you are gonna over analyze every scene like he does and only try to find the negatives.
 
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