Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

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Nashemon

Senior member
Jun 14, 2012
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And that site tries to say today's Star Wars fans are hating on The Last Jedi exactly the same way fans were hating on Empire back then. After reading that well unfortunately they couldn't be more wrong.
Huh?? Did I link the wrong article?

Seems to be a side-by-side comparison to me.

Going back to read it today, I skimmed through it and somehow ended up in the middle of the David Gerrold's quote. I was confused for a moment when he mentioned Han and Leia traveling to Bespin, because for a few paragraphs there it sounded exactly like he was talking about The Last Jedi.

Gerrold's full article here (page 24):
https://archive.org/details/starlog_magazine-038

The Empire Strikes Out

When I called to suggest to ye kindly editor that I had some thoughts about The Empire Strikes Back, he said, "David— wait! Before you write anything, give us a chance to install the new security system. We're putting in steel doors, 10-foot concrete walls, barbed wire, electrified fences, laser beams, sandbag reinforcements, guard dogs, alligators in the moat— we'll have special security clearances for all employees and airport-style weapons-checks at the doors, an X-ray scanner for incoming packages — "

"Howard, Howard—" I managed to interrupt him. "I liked it. I have hardly any quibbles at all."

"Whew!" He breathed a sigh of relief. "Maybe we can do without the machine guns in the guard towers after all."

"Pish tush," I said. (I've always wanted to say "Pish tush" to someone.) "A few angry letters because I asked what makes Kessel run and you get all excited." ♦

"A few angry letters?!!" he screamed. I got the feeling he was jumping up and down on his desk at the time. "We're still picking shrapnel out of the art department!!"

"Howard, Howard," I said as gently as possible. "Please stop scuffing the furniture and sit down. Now, listen to me — we have a responsibility to the readership. It's that simple. I have to tell the truth."

"Gevalt!"

"Even if it's unpleasant," I added.

There was a thud and then silence from the telephone. After a moment, another voice said, "What did you say to Howard?"

"Uh, nothing. I'll talk to him again when he gets out of the hospital."

I liked it. I really did.

I just didn't like it enough.

So I went back for a second look, and the more I thought about it, the more I realized—

— uh, listen, if you're one of those fanatics who started waiting in line sometime last December, who hasn't seen daylight since May 21, who worships the wart over Yoda's left eye, then maybe you'd better skip this part of the magazine and go on to something else. Okay? Because you're not going to like much of what I have to say here.

Howard will appreciate it.

Just about every other critic in the country has been telling you how good the picture is; they've been falling all over themselves to tell you. It's embarrassing. I feel guilty for not liking it as much as I'm supposed to.

I really hesitated before I wrote this column, because nobody likes the guy who stands up to say, "Aww, this party isn't as good as everybody says it is."

And it's no fun being that guy either. You don't get invited to a lot of parties.

You saw the picture. You have your own opinion. Nothing I say here is going to make you like the picture any more or any less. And that's not my job anyway.

My job is to make you think about what you saw. If you're happy, if you don't want to think, then turn the page.

The rest of us will get on with this. It's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it

Let's take the easy— and familiar— quibbles first.

• Han Solo maneuvers the Millennium Falcon into a hole in an asteroid to hide while he makes repairs. Princess Leia sees something outside the ship. They go out to investigate— wearing only oxygen masks. No spacesuits. They explore the inside of the tunnel they are in, walking around the ship — walking?!!

Wait a minute. That asteroid isn't big enough to have a significant gravity well. I'll bet you could reach escape velocity by firing a double-barrelled shotgun at the ground. And if the asteroid doesn't have gravity, then it can't hold an atmosphere. And even if our heroes are not breathing the atmosphere then they still need the pressure of an atmosphere on their bodies to keep from exploding.

Some spacesuits and weightlessness are clearly in order here.

And the fact that there are inside some kind of critter, a giant space snake, does not mitigate it one bit, but it does bring us to:

• A question of ecology. I won't argue the possibility of giant space-going worms living inside asteroids. I rather like the idea. I just want to know what those things eat. (Not to mention, how do they mate?) Most large critters have large appetites. An elephant will eat umpteen pounds of stuff every day just to maintain itself. What does this critter survive on and where does it get it in large enough quantities? Even if this critter is a lot of hollow, its existence still implies (there's that word again) that there is a larger ecology to support it.

What kind of creatures live in space and regularly hide in asteroid holes that a critter like this can survive playing trap-door spider? I don't believe it eats only spaceships. There aren't enough of them in the asteroid belt.

• There's no sense of astronomical scale. The Falcon goes from Hoth system to Bespin "system. How? The hyperdrive is busted.

I thought hyperdrive was the way they traveled faster than light

Even if you're at the core of the galaxy (unlikely— too much hard radiation— probably fatal), most star systems are still going to be a significant distance away from their nearest neighbors. Even half a light-year is a forbidding distance at sub-light speeds.

• The usual quibble about the movements of the spaceships. Very pretty. Very impressive. Very inaccurate. Spacecraft tend to travel at several hundred miles per second. Even the slow ones, like the ones that went to the Moon. (Does anyone remember that?) The fast ones— say, like the Falcon— eat up distance at several thousand miles per second. Or more. At those speeds, dogfights are…unlikely. At least, the kind demonstrated by the special-effects wizards here. A terrific-looking job, but wrong. What we are seeing may look like spaceships, but they move like supersonic fighters and flying aircraft carriers. Impressive, yes. But reminiscent of Battlestar Galactica. And symptomatic —

Listen, this isn't science fiction. It's science fantasy. It's fairy tale, using science-fiction devices. And it's great fun, all this flash and dazzle, zipping and zapping across the silver screen and into your heart. Enjoy it. That's what it's for. Despite the above quibbles, most of the rest of it works very well.

That a project as ambitious as this one succeeds as well as it does is credit to the not-so-small army of talented men and women who've spent the past two years of their lives trying to make it the very best film they could. They deserve our applause.

John Williams' music was great (of course), Leigh Brackett and Larry Kasdan's dialogue was clever, Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford's performances were crisp, Mark Hamill's stunts were impressive, Ralph McQuarrie's designs were beautiful (again), and most of the effects were stunning — particularly the gigantic stop-motion elephant walkers. Wow!

No question, it's the best Saturday matinee I've seen since May 25, 1977.

But even fantasy, science or otherwise, gotta follow some rules —

You can break the rules, of course. Lots of storytellers do — but the good ones always have a good reason for doing so. But you must never forget your audience, because that's the fatal mistake.

I think George Lucas knows this, but I also think there may be some serious miscalculations here…

An audience comes to a story with a "willing suspension of disbelief."

That is, they know it's only a story — but they want to cooperate with the storyteller in the process of convincing themselves, even if only for a short while, that the story is actually happening.

If, even for a single moment, the storyteller says or shows something that the audience knows to be false, then the magic of the story is broken. If it's a very good story, the audience will quickly reestablish their belief in it. But the more such moments occur, the more the disbelief mounts up.

Eventually, a threshold of disbelief is reached, and the audience will no longer cooperate in the process of fooling themselves. The storyteller has lost them. He has failed.

The job of the storyteller — or the filmmaker — is to make his lies as convincing as possible.

The Empire Strikes Back looks very convincing. Most people will be convinced. The technical questions won't bother them a bit. Nor will much of anything else, I suspect.

But — those who do start asking questions are going to ask all the questions. They will dig all the way down, as far as they can go, until they get to the big one: The Cracker Jack test.

Remember? Is there a prize in the story? Does it demonstrate a piece of truth? It's hard to say here, because not all the evidence is in. This isn't a complete story. It's only part of a story. That incompleteness is terribly unsatisfying. It hurts the film.

Star Wars had an epic quality. It felt like a classic myth. Part of that is because it had what Alfred Hitchcock used to call a "McGuffin" — a reason for everybody to be chasing everybody else: "Where are the plans to the Death Star?!!"

The Empire Strikes Back may be told against an epic background but it doesn't quite have that same epic quality. Nor does it have a McGuffin. And that may be the reason why it doesn't have the same mythic feeling. All the chasing and racing is very exciting, but it doesn't seem to have a larger purpose. Where before we were made aware that these events were one small part of a larger rebellion, now it seems as if everything revolves around Darth Vader versus Luke Skywalker. The focus has been narrowed. The rest of the battles are therefore trivialized by comparison, and the sense of epic is weakened.

Structurally, the film is flawed by its need to imitate its predecessor's "formula" of fast-paced cross-cutting. We cut back and forth between Luke and Yoda on Dagobah and Leia and Han in the asteroids, and the time sense of both sets of events is distorted. How long were Han and Leia fleeing? How long is Luke studying?

Why not stay with Han and Leia until they leave the asteroid and head for the Bespin system, then cut to Luke arriving at Dagobah and stay with him until he leaves?

Changes the pace? Yes, it slows it down. It also suggests some scale of distance between these places. (Crosscutting also implies simultaneity — a concept which most modern physicists say is impossible, especially on an astronomical scale. Sorry.)

Because the film now runs at such a fast pace throughout its entire length, it can't build to an additional peak of excitement at the end when Luke finally confronts Darth Vader. It's an exciting fight, yes — but we're already at out peaks, we can't get any more excited — and darn it, we should.

The fight should be a climax, and it isn't, and that's one of the reasons why we're left feeling just a bit unsatisfied.

The other one: Yoda. I like him. It. Whatever. Cute. Zen can be cuddly. But if he's a Jedi master, then the galaxy is in worse trouble than we thought.

Sure, Yoda says all the right things. He has the best line in the picture: "There is no try. Either do or do not." That piece of truth is worth the price of admission alone. But it doesn't look like Yoda believes in it himself.

There's a scene where Luke tries to use the Force to raise his X-wing fighter from the swamp and can't do it. He gives up in despair, stalks off into the woods, muttering, "It's impossible," and sits down to sulk. Obviously, Luke hasn't finished growing up. He hasn't learned patience.

Yoda screws up his face, raises one hand, begins to tremble a little — and raises the fighter from the water and deposits it on dry land.

Luke is astonished. "I don't believe it," he says.

Yoda looks at him. ‘’That's why you fail. "

And that's where the scene ends.

We have to ask — what is the point that this scene is trying to make? Excuse me — there is no try. What is the point this scene is supposed to make? Is Yoda demonstrating the power of the Force to Luke? Yes. Is Yoda trying to teach Luke to use it himself? I would hope so. But there is no try, Yoda. Either do or do not.

So why does Yoda give Luke his ship? He's denying him a valuable lesson by denying him a reason to learn. Having the fighter handed back to him so easily is definitely not going to teach Luke patience.

And in fact, when we next cut back to Luke and Yoda, Luke is ready to drop everything to fly straight into Darth Vader's trap. And it has yet to be established that Luke has learned how to use the Force for anything more than lifting rocks while standing on his head — a skill of somewhat limited usefulness.

There's a piece missing here. If Yoda is truly a Jedi master, then after he has raised the X-wing fighter out of the swamp to show it can be done, he should drop it right back in and say to Luke, "When you believe you can do it, then you win."

And then the next time we cut back to Luke and Yoda, it would be enough to see the fighter out of the swamp again, cleaned off and Luke grinning like a man who's just discovered he can run the four-minute mile in three and a half.

It would get applause from the audience. It would visibly demonstrate how much Luke had learned about the Force. It would make his later impatience even more of a failure.

As I understand it, it is not the power itself that's hard to master, it's the self-discipline that's needed for controlling one's use of the power.

What is demonstrated now, in The Empire Strikes Back, is that Luke cannot learn how to be a Jedi knight. He doesn't listen. Yoda tells him he won't need his weapons, he puts his weapons on. Yoda tells him not to go to Bespin, he goes to Bespin. Luke promised to stay and finish his training — he doesn't.

Yoda was right. He can't teach Luke.

If that's the point of this subplot on Dagobah, then Luke is doomed to failure; he isn't much of a hero because he hasn't demonstrated his ability to grow — and that's what heroism really is: discovering that you can master what looks like an impossible challenge.

In fact, Luke does fail on Bespin — but we don't see much evidence that he learns anything from his failure. Did you notice he doesn't rescue anybody? They have to rescue him.

A story is about pain and hope and what we learn in the transition from one to the other. It's about growth, or the failure to grow. If Luke doesn't learn anything, then he can't grow. And if this isn't about growth, then it isn't a story. In fact, it isn't even a very good chapter.

The next episode, Revenge of the Jedi, should bring Luke and Vader together again for a rematch. Based on the evidence so far, I expect Luke to die in the attempt. If he's lucky, he may take Vader with him

Funny. The missing scene in Star Wars was about Luke learning how to use the Force. That's the same thing that's missing here.

An author or filmmaker chooses the specific incidents that he believes best tell his story. That the authors of The Empire Strikes Back chose to portray these incidents suggests that they may not fully believe in the power of the Force themselves.

Hey, guys — next time around, use the Force. Please.
 

ewdotson

Golden Member
Oct 30, 2011
1,295
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I didn't need Luke to become some sort of EU-rific demigod. But it certainly would have been nice if his failure hadn't been quite so complete and if he'd at least been *trying* to accomplish something on Ahch-To beyond dying. I'm 100% down with Rey being the fundamental hero of the sequel trilogy and not him. But it seems easy for me to imagine ways they could have told the basic story they wanted to tell without crapping on him *quite* so hard.
 

Oyeve

Lifer
Oct 18, 1999
21,940
838
126
As an old SW fan I thought the ending was brilliant. I saw the first movie in 1977 when I was 12 and loved the ending in TLJ. I thought the first half of the movie was mediocre at best tho. Yeah, we all saw the xwing in the water and we all thought he'd raise it and come blasting in at the last possible moment and save them all but force projecting from millions of miles away was, IMO, more badass!
 

Nashemon

Senior member
Jun 14, 2012
889
86
91
I liked the projection, too. Everyone is calling the X-wing a McGuffin, but it being shown there made Luke being on Crait believable until the reveal. Him not being there also serves to further infuriate Kylo Ren, as well as reveal his weaknesses.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,613
3,459
136
Huh?? Did I link the wrong article?

Seems to be a side-by-side comparison to me.

Going back to read it today, I skimmed through it and somehow ended up in the middle of the David Gerrold's quote. I was confused for a moment when he mentioned Han and Leia traveling to Bespin, because for a few paragraphs there it sounded exactly like he was talking about The Last Jedi.

Gerrold's full article here (page 24):
https://archive.org/details/starlog_magazine-038

Interesting review of ESB. All his criticisms are things that nagged at me when I first watched it. I think already dealing with sound in space and the unrealistic way ships moved kinda softened me up for things like that. I agree with the criticisms about pacing too. Jumping from getting chased through an asteroid field to Luke sitting on a log in a swamp is pretty jarring.

I think if the internet had been around back then, we would have seen similar levels of criticism that we're getting for TLJ.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,810
29,564
146
I didn't need Luke to become some sort of EU-rific demigod. But it certainly would have been nice if his failure hadn't been quite so complete and if he'd at least been *trying* to accomplish something on Ahch-To beyond dying. I'm 100% down with Rey being the fundamental hero of the sequel trilogy and not him. But it seems easy for me to imagine ways they could have told the basic story they wanted to tell without crapping on him *quite* so hard.

As an old SW fan I thought the ending was brilliant. I saw the first movie in 1977 when I was 12 and loved the ending in TLJ. I thought the first half of the movie was mediocre at best tho. Yeah, we all saw the xwing in the water and we all thought he'd raise it and come blasting in at the last possible moment and save them all but force projecting from millions of miles away was, IMO, more badass!

See, I don't really disagree with any of this, technically, but I remain disappointed because of how much useless time was wasted in this movie on nonsense: an entire ~30 minute interlude into an ultimately meaningless subplot on some bullshit casino planet with bullshit horse things. I mean...whattheeverlovingfuck? "But we see that the rebels can fail, and still bounce back!"

Yeah, fuck all that. How about, while this days-long ridiculous slow-motion "race" through some part of some system plays out, we not leap some small band of incompetent idiots to some part of the galaxy (I mean, somehow...with an imperial fleet slowly watching everything) to find some random code breaker to do some thing that never happens), we instead use that time to work on Luke and especially Rey. Let's work on some back story. Let's at least see "middle Luke" doing some badass shit before he arrived on that stupid island, and convinced himself that he was done being the Rebel Alliance's resident badass. Then, and only then, does he get to force project himself across the galaxy before killing himself. There's nearly 40 minutes of useless screen time where this could have been accomplished.

I, too, am totally happy with moving on from the old guard and focusing on Rey (I really do like Rey), but I don't like how Han, Leia, and especially Luke are kinda the trash heaps of the universe now.

I will say that the junky speeder fight on the salt flats was absolutely gorgeous, though. It was a beauty to watch in the Dolby Cinema in SF where I watched this the other day. I never was all that into the space/surface ship battles in SW, strangely enough, but I actually thought those in TLJ were some of the best. I really liked the opening bomber sequence, even though it seemed the bombers were stupidly clustered, and a bit unnecessarily slow (I get that bombers are slower than fighters...but wtf with this nerf on their speed--super bombers or something? The Y-Wing bombers/hybrids in RotJ were rather fast and maneuverable)
 

JEDI

Lifer
Sep 25, 2001
30,160
3,302
126


I don't remember Adm Holdo meeting Lando Calrissian?!

and yes, it should have been Adm Ackabar sacrificing himself instead of her.
what a unceremonious way for him to go out
 

Stopsignhank

Platinum Member
Mar 1, 2014
2,338
1,532
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I just saw it yesterday and was disappointed. I thought the humor attempts gave it a different feel than the rest of the movies. Some of my problems with the movie;

The bombers. Yeah gravity bombs do not fall in space. Then there is the fact that similar to the death star there is an "easy" button on the huge fortified dreadnought.



Leia. OK, I can accept her coming back to life, after all it is a movie. However when she got blown out into space she was in a vacuum. Don't people kind of explode in the vacuum of space? One reason for wearing a space suit when they are out there.

The entire code breaker thing was utter rubbish. The entire story line was not needed. Then at the end Rey gets in her little escape pod and flies into the first order ship without the need of a code breaker. If she was invited onto the shop by Kylo I missed that in the movie.

So there is Fin and the girl who are in the middle of the landing bay surrounded by storm troopers. Most of the ship blows up and lo and behold Fin and the girl are OK. Yet the storm troopers who have at least some form of armor are all dead. Or at least mostly dead.

I am sure there are other problems, that is just what I can think of right now.
 

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,892
2,135
126
I just saw it yesterday and was disappointed. I thought the humor attempts gave it a different feel than the rest of the movies. Some of my problems with the movie;

The bombers. Yeah gravity bombs do not fall in space. Then there is the fact that similar to the death star there is an "easy" button on the huge fortified dreadnought.



Leia. OK, I can accept her coming back to life, after all it is a movie. However when she got blown out into space she was in a vacuum. Don't people kind of explode in the vacuum of space? One reason for wearing a space suit when they are out there.

The entire code breaker thing was utter rubbish. The entire story line was not needed. Then at the end Rey gets in her little escape pod and flies into the first order ship without the need of a code breaker. If she was invited onto the shop by Kylo I missed that in the movie.

So there is Fin and the girl who are in the middle of the landing bay surrounded by storm troopers. Most of the ship blows up and lo and behold Fin and the girl are OK. Yet the storm troopers who have at least some form of armor are all dead. Or at least mostly dead.

I am sure there are other problems, that is just what I can think of right now.

People do not explode in a vacuum. That's a myth. People wear space suits to protect against freezing and radiation + atmosphere. You can actually survive for 20-30 seconds unprotected in space. The whole scene looked ridiculous though.

Agreed about the codebreaker. It's like they needed filler and made something up.
 

NuclearNed

Raconteur
May 18, 2001
7,837
310
126
I haven't read this entire thread and probably won't, so maybe this question has been asked:

Why couldn't the First Order hyperspace a blockade of star destroyers directly into the path of the fleeing Rebellion ships, and immediately put a halt to the silly little slo-mo chase?
 

local

Golden Member
Jun 28, 2011
1,851
512
136
I haven't read this entire thread and probably won't, so maybe this question has been asked:

Why couldn't the First Order hyperspace a blockade of star destroyers directly into the path of the fleeing Rebellion ships, and immediately put a halt to the silly little slo-mo chase?

Because then they would have done something that made sense.
 

Homerboy

Lifer
Mar 1, 2000
30,856
4,974
126
I haven't read this entire thread and probably won't, so maybe this question has been asked:

Why couldn't the First Order hyperspace a blockade of star destroyers directly into the path of the fleeing Rebellion ships, and immediately put a halt to the silly little slo-mo chase?

In nearly every movie ever made you could say "why didn't they..." Sadly, that would end most movies in the 1st 5 mins.
These types of issues with SW movies, Marvel movies, LoTR, etc etc don't bother me too much.
 
Reactions: Oyeve

snoopy7548

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2005
8,088
5,084
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Here's my take on the pile of crap. I'm certainly missing a few things but these are the ones that bugged me the most:


The fight scene with the Praetorian Guards was pretty awesome, along with Rey and Ben’s whole connection thing. Finn and Rose’s side quest was unnecessary; I wish they spent that time on Luke and Rey and who Snoke was and why he was so “powerful.”

Luke’s force-projection was pretty sweet, but they should have done something better for him. One guy online suggested having Luke hold all the projectiles fired at him and send them all back, but I guess that would have been too easy. Seems like they just shat all over him. I understand Rose’s concept of “protect the ones you love and don’t fight the ones you hate” which is exactly what Luke did (seems like they just shoehorned that in there for Luke’s almost-final scene), but it is pretty lame and doesn’t fit into the Star Wars theme. “Keep running from the First Order and be cowards” is what I got out of that. The movie really didn’t advance the story at all, besides kill off Luke instead of showing how badass he has become. Maybe he force-teleported himself to Dagobah or some crap instead of force-suicided himself. Maybe we’ll find out in two years…

And what was the deal with that purple-haired woman? Her death was probably the coolest thing to ever happen in a Star Wars movie. That should have been either Admiral Ackbar or Leia, but again, shitting all over the old characters for the sake of new ones.

And Leia's Mary Poppins force-pull nonsense? It's easier to believe Luke sensed the explosion and guided Leia back to the ship. Remember, "protect the ones you love." It totally fits.

The humor throughout except for a few jokes was pretty terrible, especially in the first scene with Poe and General Hux.

For all the hate The Force Awakens got for being too much like A New Hope, it was so much better than this piece of crap. It at least set up some questions for the next movie (in which they weren’t really answered, or answered properly) and had some character development. I think this one is going down as another Phantom Menace, at least IMO. Cool action scenes but lame story and execution.
 

Majes

Golden Member
Apr 8, 2008
1,164
148
106
For all the hate The Force Awakens got for being too much like A New Hope, it was so much better than this piece of crap. It at least set up some questions for the next movie (in which they weren’t really answered, or answered properly) and had some character development. I think this one is going down as another Phantom Menace, at least IMO. Cool action scenes but lame story and execution.

I don't understand how people are so kind to The Force Awakens while dumping on The Last Jedi... Almost all of the problems people have with The Last Jedi stem from what was done with TFA...

Luke running away from his problems? TFA
New supervillian with no backstory? TFA
Incredibly powerful First Order with no explanation? TFA

The Force Awakens was an awful, awful movie if the viewer stops to try to fit it in with the Star Wars Universe. Now, it established pretty decent new characters and it was fun to watch, but it makes absolutely zero sense when placed next to the previous movies.

The Last Jedi on the other hand does make sense. It continues the story lines created in The Force Awakens in believable ways. It's not always fun to watch, and there's at least one unforgivable scene, but it's true to its predecessor.

Did people really go into TLJ thinking "Man I hope this just backtracks everything TFA established"? Or did they just not realize how bad the story in TFA is?
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
234
106
I don't understand how people are so kind to The Force Awakens while dumping on The Last Jedi... Almost all of the problems people have with The Last Jedi stem from what was done with TFA...

Luke running away from his problems? TFA
New supervillian with no backstory? TFA
Incredibly powerful First Order with no explanation? TFA

The Force Awakens was an awful, awful movie if the viewer stops to try to fit it in with the Star Wars Universe. Now, it established pretty decent new characters and it was fun to watch, but it makes absolutely zero sense when placed next to the previous movies.

The Last Jedi on the other hand does make sense. It continues the story lines created in The Force Awakens in believable ways. It's not always fun to watch, and there's at least one unforgivable scene, but it's true to its predecessor.

Did people really go into TLJ thinking "Man I hope this just backtracks everything TFA established"? Or did they just not realize how bad the story in TFA is?
Both are weak movies, but TFA was always going to be a "Remember This!" movie because it's been so long since a Star Wars movie came out. I was waiting for a more well written movie in TLJ but then it goes and breaks all Star Wars Universe logic with the light speed attack. None of the previous movies make sense anymore.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
I don't understand how people are so kind to The Force Awakens while dumping on The Last Jedi... Almost all of the problems people have with The Last Jedi stem from what was done with TFA...

Luke running away from his problems? TFA
New supervillian with no backstory? TFA
Incredibly powerful First Order with no explanation? TFA

The Force Awakens was an awful, awful movie if the viewer stops to try to fit it in with the Star Wars Universe. Now, it established pretty decent new characters and it was fun to watch, but it makes absolutely zero sense when placed next to the previous movies.

The Last Jedi on the other hand does make sense. It continues the story lines created in The Force Awakens in believable ways. It's not always fun to watch, and there's at least one unforgivable scene, but it's true to its predecessor.

Did people really go into TLJ thinking "Man I hope this just backtracks everything TFA established"? Or did they just not realize how bad the story in TFA is?
Force Awakens was a weak rehash of ANH but also set up an interesting mystery box, which is Abrams' modus operandi.

Johnson decided to blow up the mystery box. TLJ is a poor movie and Johnson's character arc decisions now make TFA a worst and almost pointless movie.
 

Majes

Golden Member
Apr 8, 2008
1,164
148
106
Both are weak movies, but TFA was always going to be a "Remember This!" movie because it's been so long since a Star Wars movie came out. I was waiting for a more well written movie in TLJ but then it goes and breaks all Star Wars Universe logic with the light speed attack. None of the previous movies make sense anymore.

I've done my best to explain the lightspeed thing earlier in this thread... But I don't see how it "broke" Star Wars since it's been possible to crash into things at lightspeed since the original trilogy. There are lots of possible reasons why it may not have been done up to this point.
 

Majes

Golden Member
Apr 8, 2008
1,164
148
106
Force Awakens was a weak rehash of ANH but also set up an interesting mystery box, which is Abrams' modus operandi.

Johnson decided to blow up the mystery box. TLJ is a poor movie and Johnson's character arc decisions now make TFA a worst and almost pointless movie.

I'm really sick of hearing this "mystery box" thing. It's an excuse for poor storytelling and lack of backstory in most cases.
 

evident

Lifer
Apr 5, 2005
11,938
538
126
the more i look back on things JJ Abrams made the more I really hate his writing.

Lost - started off great then turned into a pile of unwatchable dog s***, involves time travel

Star Trek reboot - time travel

Star Wars - Beating a dead horse, but biggest problem w/ the new series is how strong the first order is all of a sudden, and how the good guys are just a rag tag "resistance" even though they were originally part of the (you would think) huge new republic. I don't think TFA or TLJ were steaming piles, but in context of the original movies could be much better
 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
472
126
I don't understand how people are so kind to The Force Awakens while dumping on The Last Jedi... Almost all of the problems people have with The Last Jedi stem from what was done with TFA...

Luke running away from his problems? TFA
New supervillian with no backstory? TFA
Incredibly powerful First Order with no explanation? TFA

The Force Awakens was an awful, awful movie if the viewer stops to try to fit it in with the Star Wars Universe. Now, it established pretty decent new characters and it was fun to watch, but it makes absolutely zero sense when placed next to the previous movies.

The Last Jedi on the other hand does make sense. It continues the story lines created in The Force Awakens in believable ways. It's not always fun to watch, and there's at least one unforgivable scene, but it's true to its predecessor.

Did people really go into TLJ thinking "Man I hope this just backtracks everything TFA established"? Or did they just not realize how bad the story in TFA is?
I didn't think for The Force Awakens was great because it didn't bringing us anything new, but it's a part one of a three part story. It's meant to set everything up. It's not meant to answer questions in the middle of it. The Last Jedi, the second part of the three story arc, is meant to answer some questions but introduce others. The Last Jedi threw away any questions The Force Awakens had and left none for the third part. Why do we care about watching part three? Kylo Ren cannot carry a movie himself. He is not a good enough bad guy which is why you needed Snoke. What big mystery do we have going into the next chapter? We have none.

Rian Johnson would have made a fine Star Wars movie by himself but not as a part two of three.
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
234
106
I've done my best to explain the lightspeed thing earlier in this thread... But I don't see how it "broke" Star Wars since it's been possible to crash into things at lightspeed since the original trilogy. There are lots of possible reasons why it may not have been done up to this point.
No there really aren't. The Death Star is no threat at all if you can lightspeed a bunch of small ships into it. The Trade Federation blockade is meaningless since you can just lightspeed a few ships into their droid control ships. The rebels could have just lightspeeded into any and all Empire obstacles and avoided the countless loss of life in their war. That one scene in TLJ paved the way for these realizations, it's easy to avoid the realistic problem of being able to lightspeed into anything by simply never showing it happen, but it was a very pivotal and important scene in the movie (which should have been done by Admiral Akbar...). It was visually cool, but extremely poor writing from a lore perspective because of the can of worms it opened.
 
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