Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

[Zenoth]

Came back form the theater a few hours ago, watched it with a friend.

It sucked, horrendously so. It was one of the worst movies I've seen in recent years.

I decided that I'm done with the new lore related to the new movies, and won't go at the theater to watch E9 in December 2019. I genuinely don't care anymore. The only thing that comforts me is that Lucas had nothing to do with that shit, which makes that new ongoing trilogy technically non-canon (doesn't mean anything if they "bought" it, that's just money; the ideas and vision of that universe sit in Lucas' brain, and means nothing to anybody over at Disney, very apparently so). It's very easy to dismiss and look back and tell yourself that the Skywalker saga simply did end with Return of the Jedi, and that was it and it was fine that way; it was good closure and the story was told. Instead of going with E7 to E9 post Disney purchase they should have simply left that saga alone and started fresh somewhere else completely already with their first movie back in 2015. Nah, instead they wanted money so they went with "continuity", that really isn't so, it's going nowhere at this point and it's terrible decisions made (written) and plot holes counting by the dozens and the bloodbath doesn't seem to stop.

Anyway, I love Star Wars, but with E8 out now it's crystal clear that they lost it. They don't know where they're going with this saga and the universe around it. I only conclude not by saying something like "Star Wars is dead", but by saying that these new movies are not Star Wars. They are Disney's specific 'take on' it, it's an expanded universe that I simply dismiss now. No, Star Wars isn't dead, it's very much alive and resides in the original trilogy. It started, and ended there.

What a piece of trash that movie was, jeebus (sorry, usually try not to be too negative but The Last Jedi doesn't deserve any restraint on my part).

 

[Sonikku]

 

[StrangerGuy]

Concerned exec: "Wouldn't that utterly destroy the established SW OT lore and world building? Besides, even if this movie was standalone wouldn't it make more sense for the First Order to use that tactic since they vastly outnumber the Resistance?"

RJ: SHUTUP ITS ~* DIFFERENT *~ AND ~* SUBVERSIVE *~ !

 

[Franz316]

You could easily write a book on everything wrong in this movie. Disney completely missed the essence of what made Star Wars special. I have no intention of ever watching this movie again, and if I could, I would unwatch it.

 

[paperfist]

That is certainly the way it seems but hell Disney owns Marvel Studios. They cannot be that retarded about overall story arcs when you have that giant pile of movies all tied into a single arc. And I think almost everyone knows the way Lucas developed the original trilogy what kind of short sighted idiot says nah we can make a trilogy without establishing where we want it to go one movie at a time. I can't believe that 7 and 8 are making me actually gain some respect back for Lucas just because he can successfully string a plot along three movies.

Obviously they are. People, companies get complacent and these are the results. Lucas was looking to change cinema, make a name for himself, tell a story. He was hungry. Disney is looking for cash, cash, cash.

Why are you dissing Lucas? His 1st 3 are epics. Are you speaking of the prequels? They weren't total garbage. He was at a disadvantage of having such a gap in time and such a leap forward in technology that there was no way they could be seamless.

The Last Jedi makes me want to see Timothy Zahn's books brought to life even more. They would have be rightful conclusions to the Return of the Jedi

 

[spacejamz]

I intentionally avoided this thread until I saw the movie which I just got back from...

I thought I would be the only one that hated it but I guess I was wrong...

my two stupid questions about the movie:

When the First Order forces land on the planet, why did they land the ATAT's and the shield breaker cannon so far from the base? For that matter, why not just fire that cannon they used at the beginning of the movie to shoot at the shield/rebel base (or at least to soften the rebels before their ground attack)?

And the bombers? WTH? how do bombs drop from the bomb bays in space? also there had to be hundreds (thousands???) of TIE fighters available, even though it seems like they only had 20 for that fight (just pulled that number out of my ass kinda like they script they wrote LOL)...surely with that number, they should have gotten all of the bombers before they even got close....

 

[tommo123]

Obviously they are. People, companies get complacent and these are the results. Lucas was looking to change cinema, make a name for himself, tell a story. He was hungry. Disney is looking for cash, cash, cash.

Why are you dissing Lucas? His 1st 3 are epics. Are you speaking of the prequels? They weren't total garbage. He was at a disadvantage of having such a gap in time and such a leap forward in technology that there was no way they could be seamless.

The Last Jedi makes me want to see Timothy Zahn's books brought to life even more. They would have be rightful conclusions to the Return of the Jedi

are people here really saying that this is worse than the prequels? TFA wasn't great but i enjoyed it enough but haven't watched the prequels since they originally came out.

 

[Ancalagon44]

are people here really saying that this is worse than the prequels? TFA wasn't great but i enjoyed it enough but haven't watched the prequels since they originally came out.

I'd say that the individual scenes are better in TLJ. Like, individual pieces of dialog and action, taken on their own without context, are generally of a higher level of quality than those of the prequel trilogy. I mean, the prequel trilogy had Jar Jar Binks in it. It is hard to top that, much as I did not like TLJ.

And while the plot with the Trade Federation gets a bit more interesting when you actually understand what is going on, I don't think it is told all that well in the movies. The story is solid but I feel like the story telling itself is a bit off.

With that being said, when you compare the story being told in the prequel trilogy vs the story being told in TLJ, the prequel trilogy has a better story, even if the story telling is sometimes uneven.

TLJ fares especially badly in the comparison to Revenge of the Sith, which not only has a better story and better characters, but it also has much cooler action sequences. Revenge of the Sith is easily the best of the 3 prequel movies, and it is a lot better than TLJ.

Is TLJ better than the other two? I'm not sure, it may be. Certainly it looks better, lacks Jar Jar Binks, and has a plot that is easier to understand. The problem is, the plot is a lot more stupid and the characters are a lot worse.

The prequel trilogy has Mace Windu, Yoda, Qui Gon Jinn, Obi Wan, Padme, and later on, a more interesting Anakin Skywalker (he sucks in the first two). TLJ has..... who exactly? Poe Dameron? Meh. Holdo? Meh. Leia? Cool, but she doesn't do much other than fly through space. Luke? From being Jesus Luke in ROTJ to angry bitter old man Luke in TLJ. Admittedly Luke's final scene is pretty cool.

But that is it, just a collection of scenes. Not a good story.

 

[Majes]

It's really frustrating right now to read all of these complaints... TLJ is a fine movie for what it was given. There is one unforgivable scene (Leia in space) and two painful scenes (Space Cow, and AT ST BB8). I've read hundreds of reviews/complaints and they almost all mention these.

The other complaints that I see almost everywhere are actually complaints about The Force Awakens. People say they hate Luke's abrupt character change. Well I hated it too, but I hated it two years ago when The Force Awakens came out and we learned Luke ran away from his problems. Luke's performance is brilliant in The Last Jedi if you accept what happens in TFA. If you can't accept it, then you have issues with The Force Awakens...

The complaints about the lack of exposition on Snoke and The First Order are valid. But once again this is a failing of The Force Awakens that should have laid some ground work instead of having these things magically appear with no explanation.

Finn's arc gets a lot of flack from people, but the arc stays true to what was established in TFA. Finn gets an idea and runs with it, then just bungles through the consequences. I didn't feel like Rose added anything, but it didn't subtract from what was already a rather one dimensional character.

So the issues with the Last Jedi seem to be issues with the new Trilogy. That's valid to me. It appears to be telling the Ben Solo story with a side of this Rey character, and I'm not sure people even realize that this is the actual story. It's not about the old characters. They are just in it to provide continuity and to die.

I thought Rogue One was fantastic so I don't think the Star Wars Universe is dead. However, I think they may be telling a story that people don't want to hear at the moment with The Last Jedi. That's a strange place for Star Wars to be, and it will get stranger with the Solo movie this summer that no one really wanted...

 

[Ancalagon44]

The complaints about the lack of exposition on Snoke and The First Order are valid. But once again this is a failing of The Force Awakens that should have laid some ground work instead of having these things magically appear with no explanation.

That makes no sense.

It isn't TFAs fault that Snoke was killed off like a red shirt from Star Trek. It isn't TFAs fault that Rey has no backstory at all.

In fact, I'd argue that TFA did it right. TFA setup the questions in our minds - who is Snoke and who is Rey? We wanted answers to those questions and we thought we would get them in TLJ. Instead, TLJ gave us a turd sandwich.

Look at A New Hope and the Empire Strikes Back. A New Hope introduced Darth Vader but didn't really tell us who he was. By the end of Empire Strikes back, we know that he is really Luke's father, gone over to the dark side.

So I'd say you are completely wrong on this. These are TLJ failings, not TFA failings.

 

[Bubblehappy]

Finally saw this on Tuesday. I'm a big fan of the last one, but this one left me completely unimpressed. I appreciated seeing skywalker again and the new humor, but it's not something I want to see again.

 

[Majes]

That makes no sense.

It isn't TFAs fault that Snoke was killed off like a red shirt from Star Trek. It isn't TFAs fault that Rey has no backstory at all.

In fact, I'd argue that TFA did it right. TFA setup the questions in our minds - who is Snoke and who is Rey? We wanted answers to those questions and we thought we would get them in TLJ. Instead, TLJ gave us a turd sandwich.

Look at A New Hope and the Empire Strikes Back. A New Hope introduced Darth Vader but didn't really tell us who he was. By the end of Empire Strikes back, we know that he is really Luke's father, gone over to the dark side.

So I'd say you are completely wrong on this. These are TLJ failings, not TFA failings.

You choose strange points to back up your argument...
TLJ does give us Rey's backstory. You may not like what it gave, but it's there. It's oddly similar to your Empire Strikes Back example.

You were okay with the Emperor being replaced in the movie immediately after he was killed in the last one by what seems to be the exact same character with no explanation whatsoever?

I wasn't. It's a huge failing of The Force Awakens because instead of a brand new trilogy where it's okay to leave questions we already had a HUGE backstory that this new character has to cram into and honestly doesn't fit at all.

 

[glenn1]

It's really frustrating right now to read all of these complaints... TLJ is a fine movie for what it was given. There is one unforgivable scene (Leia in space) and two painful scenes (Space Cow, and AT ST BB8). I've read hundreds of reviews/complaints and they almost all mention these.

The other complaints that I see almost everywhere are actually complaints about The Force Awakens. People say they hate Luke's abrupt character change. Well I hated it too, but I hated it two years ago when The Force Awakens came out and we learned Luke ran away from his problems. Luke's performance is brilliant in The Last Jedi if you accept what happens in TFA. If you can't accept it, then you have issues with The Force Awakens...

The complaints about the lack of exposition on Snoke and The First Order are valid. But once again this is a failing of The Force Awakens that should have laid some ground work instead of having these things magically appear with no explanation.

Finn's arc gets a lot of flack from people, but the arc stays true to what was established in TFA. Finn gets an idea and runs with it, then just bungles through the consequences. I didn't feel like Rose added anything, but it didn't subtract from what was already a rather one dimensional character.

So the issues with the Last Jedi seem to be issues with the new Trilogy. That's valid to me. It appears to be telling the Ben Solo story with a side of this Rey character, and I'm not sure people even realize that this is the actual story. It's not about the old characters. They are just in it to provide continuity and to die.

I thought Rogue One was fantastic so I don't think the Star Wars Universe is dead. However, I think they may be telling a story that people don't want to hear at the moment with The Last Jedi. That's a strange place for Star Wars to be, and it will get stranger with the Solo movie this summer that no one really wanted...

I have no problem with the new characters. In fact Ep. 7-9 would likely be better if none of the legacy cast were involved (see Rogue One). I actually like the characters of Finn, Rey, Kylo, etc. better than most of the original cast apart from Han Solo and of course Vader from Ep. 4-6.

Yes, 'exposition about Snoke and First Order' would have been nice but SW has a long history of having interesting characters show up and get one-off treatment (see Darth Maul), or OTOH very little or no backstory whatsoever (Emperor Palpatine in the original trilogy). Would have been nice and a missed opportunity IMHO but not a movie killer.

As stated before, my primary issues with TLJ are: (A) it seems like it smashed together two different scripts into a barely comprehensible whole, (B) too many scenes made little logical sense or didn't seem to move the story arc forward, (C) several "WTF" scenes that are stupid on their face or are deus ex machina cop-outs from the script writers, and (D) how the eventual falling out between Luke and Kylo was portrayed made no sense and seems completely contrary to how Luke has been written previously.

My comparison of TLJ to the Matrix sequels stands, both exhibit some of the same shortcomings while still being "enjoyable" movies if you turn your brain off, are willing to overlook plot holes, etc. Anyone who expects logical consistency and other best practice elements of script writing probably went away from these movies scratching their heads though, which is what we're seeing here in almost real time.

 

[Majes]

As stated before, my primary issues with TLJ are: (A) it seems like it smashed together two different scripts into a barely comprehensible whole, (B) too many scenes made little logical sense or didn't seem to move the story arc forward, (C) several "WTF" scenes that are stupid on their face or are deus ex machina cop-outs from the script writers, and (D) how the eventual falling out between Luke and Kylo was portrayed made no sense and seems completely contrary to how Luke has been written previously.

I didn't feel the plot was a mash up at all. It flowed pretty seamlessly for me. A few people had a problem with Rey going from throne room to Falcon but it is stated that she takes Snoke's personal escape pod or something like that.

I agree that a few scenes seem out of place, but I don't understand people's problem with the Kylo/Luke explanation. Most people arguing against it say "Luke even saw good in Vader, he would never have given up on Ben." But he didn't give up on Ben... At least from Luke's point of view he sensed a terrible evil when reading Ben and activated his lightsaber to confront it, then realized that it was his apprentice. Unfortunately Ben awoke at the wrong time and boom... Made perfect sense to me. It was actually one of the more believable ways to present this conflict and I was impressed by it.

 

[paperfist]

are people here really saying that this is worse than the prequels? TFA wasn't great but i enjoyed it enough but haven't watched the prequels since they originally came out.

I'm going to see it 2 more times. I've waited forever for these movies to come out.

That said TLJ to me just seems hollow. We waited a few years from seeing that cliff hanger at the end of the last one where Rey is handing Luke his light saber and you see what he does with it.

Snoke, WTF? Could have done so much more with that bad ass. It was cool how he manipulated Kylo & Rey, but that's it?

And the whole movie seemed to build up into nothing at the end. Like there's nothing I want to know about in waiting for the last episode.

I don't even know what the heck the Last Jedi meant...

 

[paperfist]

I didn't feel the plot was a mash up at all. It flowed pretty seamlessly for me. A few people had a problem with Rey going from throne room to Falcon but it is stated that she takes Snoke's personal escape pod or something like that.

I agree that a few scenes seem out of place, but I don't understand people's problem with the Kylo/Luke explanation. Most people arguing against it say "Luke even saw good in Vader, he would never have given up on Ben." But he didn't give up on Ben... At least from Luke's point of view he sensed a terrible evil when reading Ben and activated his lightsaber to confront it, then realized that it was his apprentice. Unfortunately Ben awoke at the wrong time and boom... Made perfect sense to me. It was actually one of the more believable ways to present this conflict and I was impressed by it.

Spoiler

he sensed worse in Rey, but he didn't try to kill her. He 'trained' her if that's what you want to call it.

I pretty let down he didn't reserect his X-Wing and go forth to save the Galaxy.

 

[local]

I agree that a few scenes seem out of place, but I don't understand people's problem with the Kylo/Luke explanation. Most people arguing against it say "Luke even saw good in Vader, he would never have given up on Ben." But he didn't give up on Ben... At least from Luke's point of view he sensed a terrible evil when reading Ben and activated his lightsaber to confront it, then realized that it was his apprentice. Unfortunately Ben awoke at the wrong time and boom... Made perfect sense to me. It was actually one of the more believable ways to present this conflict and I was impressed by it.

Luke already had that internal battle and decided that he would not kill Vader. I don't see him having that same internal battle again with his untrained Nephew.

 

[local]

Spoiler

I pretty let down he didn't reserect his X-Wing and go forth to save the Galaxy.

I really was expecting an old T-65 X-Wing to swoop down on the walkers once everything started going to hell on the ground.

 

[Majes]

Spoiler

he sensed worse in Rey, but he didn't try to kill her. He 'trained' her if that's what you want to call it.

I pretty let down he didn't reserect his X-Wing and go forth to save the Galaxy.

Super disagree with this. He didn't sense any darkness growing in Rey. He noticed she went towards the dark side nexus looking for answers without resisting. Similar? Perhaps but there's a huge difference.

Also, Luke-Vader and Luke-Ben Solo is not the same thing, he sensed good in Vader. He sensed growing evil in Ben Solo. It seemed that he was taken by surprise by the darkness in Ben, and reacted accordingly, pulling himself back too late and realizing he failed his apprentice.

Extremely different dynamic.

 

[Fritzo]

These are never NOT funny

 

[Fritzo]

I'd say that the individual scenes are better in TLJ. Like, individual pieces of dialog and action, taken on their own without context, are generally of a higher level of quality than those of the prequel trilogy. I mean, the prequel trilogy had Jar Jar Binks in it. It is hard to top that, much as I did not like TLJ.

And while the plot with the Trade Federation gets a bit more interesting when you actually understand what is going on, I don't think it is told all that well in the movies. The story is solid but I feel like the story telling itself is a bit off.

With that being said, when you compare the story being told in the prequel trilogy vs the story being told in TLJ, the prequel trilogy has a better story, even if the story telling is sometimes uneven.

TLJ fares especially badly in the comparison to Revenge of the Sith, which not only has a better story and better characters, but it also has much cooler action sequences. Revenge of the Sith is easily the best of the 3 prequel movies, and it is a lot better than TLJ.

Is TLJ better than the other two? I'm not sure, it may be. Certainly it looks better, lacks Jar Jar Binks, and has a plot that is easier to understand. The problem is, the plot is a lot more stupid and the characters are a lot worse.

The prequel trilogy has Mace Windu, Yoda, Qui Gon Jinn, Obi Wan, Padme, and later on, a more interesting Anakin Skywalker (he sucks in the first two). TLJ has..... who exactly? Poe Dameron? Meh. Holdo? Meh. Leia? Cool, but she doesn't do much other than fly through space. Luke? From being Jesus Luke in ROTJ to angry bitter old man Luke in TLJ. Admittedly Luke's final scene is pretty cool.

But that is it, just a collection of scenes. Not a good story.

I'm still pissed because Holdo's entire role should have been played by Ackbar. No questions asked. Instead they took an iconic character and blew him out into space without a single word.

 

[Skel]

I intentionally avoided this thread until I saw the movie which I just got back from...

I thought I would be the only one that hated it but I guess I was wrong...

my two stupid questions about the movie:

When the First Order forces land on the planet, why did they land the ATAT's and the shield breaker cannon so far from the base? For that matter, why not just fire that cannon they used at the beginning of the movie to shoot at the shield/rebel base (or at least to soften the rebels before their ground attack)?

And the bombers? WTH? how do bombs drop from the bomb bays in space? also there had to be hundreds (thousands???) of TIE fighters available, even though it seems like they only had 20 for that fight (just pulled that number out of my ass kinda like they script they wrote LOL)...surely with that number, they should have gotten all of the bombers before they even got close....

I've always wondered why they always park so far away. In Rogue One they parked far enough away to allow the entire family to run if they wanted. It's some odd thing in these SW movies.

I kept scratching my head at the bombers as well. In all the other lore (games, books and movies) the bombers were firing off missiles (or proton torpedoes) not dropping them as if we're in WWII. I guess they wanted to have a OMG moment in the beginning. If nothing else it's amusing to listen to everyone come up with reasons why gravity worked.

 

[Chromagnus]

I'm still pissed because Holdo's entire role should have been played by Ackbar. No questions asked. Instead they took an iconic character and blew him out into space without a single word.

The actor who played Ackbar died between VII and VIII. Sure they could have had someone else do the voice but it might have been out of respect for the actor to not do that and just decided to introduce a new character. That being said they should have made the characters death a bigger deal.

 

[K1052]

When the First Order forces land on the planet, why did they land the ATAT's and the shield breaker cannon so far from the base? For that matter, why not just fire that cannon they used at the beginning of the movie to shoot at the shield/rebel base (or at least to soften the rebels before their ground attack)?

And the bombers? WTH? how do bombs drop from the bomb bays in space? also there had to be hundreds (thousands???) of TIE fighters available, even though it seems like they only had 20 for that fight (just pulled that number out of my ass kinda like they script they wrote LOL)...surely with that number, they should have gotten all of the bombers before they even got close....

The facility on Crait was shielded like the base on Hoth. They mention raising the shield as well. The Empire also had to land outside the shield and walk in there too.

The bomber scene was kinda dumb. Weak craft that were not designed to be used like they were but whatever. The Empire/First Order has a history of under deploying Tie fighters so I guess this just continued that tradition lol. Tho at least the captain of the dreadnought said they should have already launched their fighters when Finn was blasting away their defense turbo lasers.

 

[spacejamz]

The facility on Crait was shielded like the base on Hoth. They mention raising the shield as well. The Empire also had to land outside the shield and walk in there too.

The bomber scene was kinda dumb. Weak craft that were not designed to be used like they were but whatever. The Empire/First Order has a history of under deploying Tie fighters so I guess this just continued that tradition lol. Tho at least the captain of the dreadnought said they should have already launched their fighters when Finn was blasting away their defense turbo lasers.

They still could have landed the ATAT's and cannon at the spot where they fired the cannon from (where Fin tried to ram it). The shield was still up this point since the cannon had not been fired yet...I know they intentionally landed that far away to add drama to the scene but you would think in real life, they would have tried to get closer to the base than they did....