States Consider Increasing Taxes for the Poor and Cutting Them for the Affluent

[GreenGreen]

A number of Republican-led states are considering tax changes that in many cases would have the effect of cutting taxes on the rich and raising them on the poor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/14/u...ing-them-on-affluent.html?abt=0002&abg=0&_r=0

It's sad that the very people that are the most fervent supporters of these candidates either don't fully understand the impact of these changes to them personally. That's really sad.

 

[waggy]

so the rich don't use e-cigs? or goods and services?

 

[berzerker60]

so the rich don't use e-cigs? or goods and services?

As a similar percentage of their income, no they don't.

 

[DrDoug]

There's something about these types of taxes being regressive so of course Republicans will be all for something like this.

I'm glad I live in Oregon! Those of you who have them can enjoy your consumption taxes.

 

[waggy]

As a similar percentage of their income, no they don't.

what does that have to do with anything? they also don't pay as much in food taxe either. but that also does not matter.

 

[brycejones]

what does that have to do with anything? they also don't pay as much in food taxe either. but that also does not matter.

Look up what regressive taxation means.

Then proceed to agree or disagree that it is a problem but I find it hard to believe as many times as its been argued around here you don't know what it means.

 

[sportage]

Now that gas is cheaper, how many republican controlled states have already pushed for a gas tax hike?
100% of them, thats all....

 

[Matt1970]

They have a ways to go to catch up with the lovely blue state of NY where we have the lowest second highest gas tax and the lowest highest cigarette tax in the nation.

 

[Matt1970]

Now that gas is cheaper, how many republican controlled states have already pushed for a gas tax hike?
100% of them, thats all....

Top 5 states for gas tax.

Pennsylvania 68.9
New York 68.7
Connecticut 65.8
California 63.8
Hawaii 63.4

Those damn republicans.

 

[berzerker60]

what does that have to do with anything? they also don't pay as much in food taxe either. but that also does not matter.

It should matter. You want to share the pain of taxes. Not just for moral reasons, though those should matter to you too, but also for reasons of economic growth and public good.

A poor man earning $15k is going to spend basically all of that and still be scraping by. Higher taxes on this spending might mean he just can't afford it, and he and his kids are more likely to turn to crime, but regardless, the extra 10% cost to this spending means he and his kids get worse educations as they take on extra jobs, have no time to find better jobs, have no time to train in skills to get better jobs especially, and so society loses out on potentially very useful workers and possibly gains crime. That $1500 is really, really important to that family.

A rich man earning $1 million/yr is going to spend, let's say, $20k/mo, and stick the remaining $63k in the bank. Add an extra 10% onto his spending for increased taxes, and now he's paying $22k/mo and sticking $61k in the bank. It has no impact on his education, potential, crime, or anything else. It's hard to imagine he would even notice. He would have to spend $83k/month before the percentage of taxation would be equal to the poor man, and frankly, I think he could cut back 10% on that $83k/month a hell of a lot easier than the guy making $1250/month can cut back $125.

 

[Jhhnn]

It should matter. You want to share the pain of taxes. Not just for moral reasons, though those should matter to you too, but also for reasons of economic growth and public good.

A poor man earning $15k is going to spend basically all of that and still be scraping by. Higher taxes on this spending might mean he just can't afford it, and he and his kids are more likely to turn to crime, but regardless, the extra 10% cost to this spending means he and his kids get worse educations as they take on extra jobs, have no time to find better jobs, have no time to train in skills to get better jobs especially, and so society loses out on potentially very useful workers and possibly gains crime. That $1500 is really, really important to that family.

A rich man earning $1 million/yr is going to spend, let's say, $20k/mo, and stick the remaining $63k in the bank. Add an extra 10% onto his spending for increased taxes, and now he's paying $22k/mo and sticking $61k in the bank. It has no impact on his education, potential, crime, or anything else. It's hard to imagine he would even notice. He would have to spend $83k/month before the percentage of taxation would be equal to the poor man, and frankly, I think he could cut back 10% on that $83k/month a hell of a lot easier than the guy making $1250/month can cut back $125.

Thank you. Unfortunately, you need to understand that Righties have been conditioned to reject that purely on ideological grounds akin to religious belief. They don't believe that trickle down economics have failed to deliver to the American people, despite the evidence all around them. Their pride won't allow it. It'll take some great catastrophe, then an epiphany for them to come to their senses & re-evaluate. We had that in 1929 & nearly again in 2008. Given the very nature of deregulated financialized capitalism run amok, we'll all likely be faced with that again before the Job Creators are done with us.

 

[Jeff7]

It should matter. You want to share the pain of taxes. Not just for moral reasons, though those should matter to you too, but also for reasons of economic growth and public good.

A poor man earning $15k is going to spend basically all of that and still be scraping by. Higher taxes on this spending might mean he just can't afford it, and he and his kids are more likely to turn to crime, but regardless, the extra 10% cost to this spending means he and his kids get worse educations as they take on extra jobs, have no time to find better jobs, have no time to train in skills to get better jobs especially, and so society loses out on potentially very useful workers and possibly gains crime. That $1500 is really, really important to that family.

A rich man earning $1 million/yr is going to spend, let's say, $20k/mo, and stick the remaining $63k in the bank. Add an extra 10% onto his spending for increased taxes, and now he's paying $22k/mo and sticking $61k in the bank. It has no impact on his education, potential, crime, or anything else. It's hard to imagine he would even notice. He would have to spend $83k/month before the percentage of taxation would be equal to the poor man, and frankly, I think he could cut back 10% on that $83k/month a hell of a lot easier than the guy making $1250/month can cut back $125.

"Well that's his own fault for being poor." - one standard answer.

Like people who say "Want to stop your clinical depression? Just stop being depressed! Problem solved."

Sometimes hard work pays off. Other times, life just doesn't give a damn about how much you work, and it keeps holding your head in the mud. Plenty of people in poor nations work much harder than the vast majority of first-worlders. But it's still their fault for being in that situation, since they made the stupid choice of being born in a place with chronic warfare or severely limited resources, and so they deserve the life they have. It couldn't have anything to do with luck now, could it? :hmm:

Article:
Conservatives are known for hating taxes but particularly hate income taxes, which they say have a greater dampening effect on growth.

Good. Negative feedback is crucial to the stability of some electronic systems. Inadequate negative feedback leads to instability, overshoot, or oscillation, which our economic systems constantly experience with bubbles or boom/bust cycles.

Policymakers are sitting around the amplifier, removing feedback and resistance to increase the gain of the system, all the while wondering why the output's constantly going haywire.

 

[OverVolt]

Like the Obamacare penalties?

 

[senseamp]

That's what the Republican party stands for, and the people in those states voted for it, so they should get what they voted for.

 

[MovingTarget]

That's what the Republican party stands for, and the people in those states voted for it, so they should get what they voted for.

But who will save us from our own collective stupidity? D:

Take that question however you will. On one hand, it is tempting to ask the rest of the nation who they think they are that they seem to "know better" about what we need than we do. But, on the other hand, we really do need saving from ourselves. GOP policies spell death for those of us on the margins, whether that be socially or economically.

AL really is conservative paradise - GOP Governor, Lt. Governor, supermajority in both legislative houses, GOP supreme court (in its entirety), and not one single Democrat in ANY statewide office. You want to see the GOP vision for America? Look South.

 

[xXandra]

“We wanted to connect the dots for people,” said Mr. Herzenberg, an economist at Keystone. “If more money’s flowing to the top, and the top folks are taxed at lower rates, inevitably that’s a problem for state budgets.”

I wonder why this truth that is clear for everyone but being ignored by legislators?

 

[senseamp]

But who will save us from our own collective stupidity? D:

Take that question however you will. On one hand, it is tempting to ask the rest of the nation who they think they are that they seem to "know better" about what we need than we do. But, on the other hand, we really do need saving from ourselves. GOP policies spell death for those of us on the margins, whether that be socially or economically.

AL really is conservative paradise - GOP Governor, Lt. Governor, supermajority in both legislative houses, GOP supreme court (in its entirety), and not one single Democrat in ANY statewide office. You want to see the GOP vision for America? Look South.

Alabama is the shiny city on the hill we were promised.
If it hasn't trickled down to you, it's your fault.

 

[Subyman]

Gas guzzler tax = good rich man's tax
Gas tax in general = hurts poor people more

An interesting way to do it is to scale the tax depending on the cost of the item. A $20 e-cig would have a 5% tax while a $500 e-cig would have 15% tax.

Kind of like bracketed sales tax

 

[CADsortaGUY]

lol. yet again another clueless liberal whining about things they know nothing of. The "rich" don't pay the same type of taxes nor do the 1%ers really have any "income taxes" for that matter. But keep trying to claim the other side hates poor people if you must.

 

[bshole]

l But keep trying to claim the other side hates poor people if you must.

He doesn't have to, the other side comes right out and says it themselves or haven't you been paying attention?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

It should matter. You want to share the pain of taxes. Not just for moral reasons, though those should matter to you too, but also for reasons of economic growth and public good.

A poor man earning $15k is going to spend basically all of that and still be scraping by. Higher taxes on this spending might mean he just can't afford it, and he and his kids are more likely to turn to crime, but regardless, the extra 10% cost to this spending means he and his kids get worse educations as they take on extra jobs, have no time to find better jobs, have no time to train in skills to get better jobs especially, and so society loses out on potentially very useful workers and possibly gains crime. That $1500 is really, really important to that family.

A rich man earning $1 million/yr is going to spend, let's say, $20k/mo, and stick the remaining $63k in the bank. Add an extra 10% onto his spending for increased taxes, and now he's paying $22k/mo and sticking $61k in the bank. It has no impact on his education, potential, crime, or anything else. It's hard to imagine he would even notice. He would have to spend $83k/month before the percentage of taxation would be equal to the poor man, and frankly, I think he could cut back 10% on that $83k/month a hell of a lot easier than the guy making $1250/month can cut back $125.

lol, it's hilarious that you think "rich" people operate this way.

Taxation is never equal. Getting rid of tax on labor would go a long way to making it more even but it will never be equal as people aren't equal in output/value/etc.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Top 5 states for gas tax.

Pennsylvania 68.9
New York 68.7
Connecticut 65.8
California 63.8
Hawaii 63.4

Those damn republicans.

lol

 

[soulcougher73]

Top 5 states for gas tax.

Pennsylvania 68.9
New York 68.7
Connecticut 65.8
California 63.8
Hawaii 63.4

Those damn republicans.

Doesnt actually refute his comment in the slightest. But you are correct that those are the 5 highest. Good job?

Looks like your fooled cadguy and poker into ignoring there States raising gas taxes. Oh how dumb can you people be lol

 

[berzerker60]

lol, it's hilarious that you think "rich" people operate this way.

Taxation is never equal. Getting rid of tax on labor would go a long way to making it more even but it will never be equal as people aren't equal in output/value/etc.

Okay, then my wise and so-informed superior in rich people ways, what am I missing? Keeping in mind that "in the bank" in this context was an expression meant to include investing the money more directly. The point is that they spend far less than they earn, so a tax on spending doesn't impact much of their income.

Of course taxation will never be equal, there are a dozen definitions of "equal" or "fair" and some of them (like actual dollar value being equal) are mind-numbingly stupid. The version of "fair" that I'm proposing to be the best one - both economically and morally - is "equal" pain, or put in economic terms, tax the marginal value of the dollar equally. That means progressive taxation, basically. It ensures that overall opportunity for advancement (though hard work and luck) exists for everyone.

 

[realibrad]

But who will save us from our own collective stupidity? D:

You dont. You let the collective succeed or fail by its choices. When the collective has lots of bad ideas, and reality does not confront them, they can and often do build upon those bad ideas. Eventually, you get an explosion of bad ideas that finally break through. Think of it like fire suppression in forests. If you hold back all fires, aka bad ideas, then eventually you can get a mega fire that burns everything down. If you allow for the fire to burn every now and then, you dont get the all ending fires.

People have a lot of really terrible ideas. They get to hold onto them because they can isolate themselves from reality. When people start doing dumb shit like saying they wont vaccinate their kids, they directly dont pay too much of a price. Then, some outbreaks happen, and people turn on them.

Same thing will happen here. You cant isolate people from dumb shit. They need to learn. I am the type of person who can lean indirectly, but some need direct lessons.