Stay off a Marine's lawn

[jlee]

yes there is. legally police Dogs. tazers, riot batons... are all considered less than deadly force but can still kill you if not used properly.

Dogs, tasers and batons (and OC, certain restraint holds, hands-on, bean bags, pepperballs, etc) are classified as non-deadly or less-lethal force. Certainly you can use a baton as deadly force (e.g. with a strike to the head), but you can do the same with a screwdriver. That does not mean that the use of a screwdriver constitutes deadly force under all circumstances, does it? However, shooting someone ANYWHERE constitutes deadly force.

If you're going to disagree with me here, post a law that backs you up.

 

[alkemyst]

There are entirely legal ways to own RPGs. You've just gotta pay to play.

Yeah RPG's have a cost...

I dare anyone to google search AD&D images with safe search off.

2nd and 6th for epic win!

 

[Andrew111]

Or what, you gonna go punch him in the face?

Under NH law, it's illegal for your dog to pee on someone else's property. I imagine other states have similar laws as well. Just because you don't care about someone else's lawn doesn't mean you can do whatever you like with it.

The point is...verbally attacking people over stupid stuff (and states have plenty of laws that are stupid) can lead to stuff like this. Where I live...almost everyone has a dog and NO ONE gets butt hurt over a dog peeing on their grass. Everyone has bags with them when they walk their dogs though to pick up after them.

Being in the military myself...I know how absolutely vulgar and disrespectful some people can be. I can definitely understand someone getting mad at some old jackass verbally assaulting them over their dog peeing on their lawn. He could have simply walked up to the dude politely and explained he had an award winning lawn and to try to keep his dog off in future. But he didn't....he had a history of verbally harassing people instead. The dude was being verbally harassed and responded in kind...sounds like the old jackass didn't like being treated the same way and showed the gun.

The guy shouldn't have punched him but the old guy started the verbal altercation and escalated it as well by showing the gun. I know plenty of people I've come across in the military that would knock the lights out of someone if they verbally harassed them over something so stupid...especially if they were spouting some racist crap. Showing a gun might just set them off more. I can't just grab a gun...go to some ethnic neighborhood spouting racist crap...and shoot everyone dead that gives me a well deserved punch in the face...well, maybe this judge would give me the green light.....

 

[Bryf50]

Showing a gun is illegal though as a threat. Personally I'd have tried to kick his ass too after that.

lol. Let me guess you'd be able to win a fight with an armed man, you're just that awesome. You'd strip the gun right out of his hands and kick his ass.

 

[KIAman]

The point is...verbally attacking people over stupid stuff (and states have plenty of laws that are stupid) can lead to stuff like this. Where I live...almost everyone has a dog and NO ONE gets butt hurt over a dog peeing on their grass. Everyone has bags with them when they walk their dogs though to pick up after them.

Being in the military myself...I know how absolutely vulgar and disrespectful some people can be. I can definitely understand someone getting mad at some old jackass verbally assaulting them over their dog peeing on their lawn. He could have simply walked up to the dude politely and explained he had an award winning lawn and to try to keep his dog off in future. But he didn't....he had a history of verbally harassing people instead. The dude was being verbally harassed and responded in kind...sounds like the old jackass didn't like being treated the same way and showed the gun.

The guy shouldn't have punched him but the old guy started the verbal altercation and escalated it as well by showing the gun. I know plenty of people I've come across in the military that would knock the lights out of someone if they verbally harassed them over something so stupid...especially if they were spouting some racist crap. Showing a gun might just set them off more. I can't just grab a gun...go to some ethnic neighborhood spouting racist crap...and shoot everyone dead that gives me a well deserved punch in the face...well, maybe this judge would give me the green light.....

WTF? First of all, nobody knows the full story as to who started what and the history between the two. Second, you know plenty of military in their 20's punch an old grandpa in the face for saying stupid stuff? Sounds like a bunch of tough guys to me. Finally, where the hell did you get any of the racist stuff and brandishing a gun typically makes other people run or do you consider those who hold their ground somehow magically courageous?

 

[JulesMaximus]

This thread: blah blah blah blah blah...

130 posts later: blah blah blah blah blah...

One guy is still dead and some douche none of us has ever met in a flyover state is on probation but he has a really swell lawn.

 

[SandEagle]

Why not shoot the dog instead? Hell, its going to come back and shit on the lawn again.

 

[KIAman]

This thread: blah blah blah blah blah...

130 posts later: blah blah blah blah blah...

One guy is still dead and some douche none of us has ever met in a flyover state is on probation but he has a really swell lawn.

Jules' reply: blah blah blah

postcount++

LOL

 

[QueBert]

i see nothing wrong here. it wasn't in cold blood.
we're talking about a 69 year old senior vs a 23 old kid. how else is he going to defend himself against someone younger?

He pulled the gun before anything, I'm pretty sure if he hadn't pulled the gun out it would have stayed at worse a yelling match. It's ironic here how people are saying the Marine had the right to defend himself because he felt in danger. Yet they're saying the dude deserved to be shot. If a gun's pulled on me and put back away, I'm going to assume my life's still in danger. Because I was raised you don't pull a gun unless you're going to use it.

The dude who got shot saw a gun and felt he was in danger, and guess what? he defended himself. Imagine that, same thing the Marine claimed he was doing. I have asshole neighbors who spend endless hours a week on their lawn, I'd bet anything this Marine was so anal he would think it's justified to kill somebody for fucking with their precious lawn.

 

[Andrew111]

WTF? First of all, nobody knows the full story as to who started what and the history between the two. Second, you know plenty of military in their 20's punch an old grandpa in the face for saying stupid stuff? Sounds like a bunch of tough guys to me. Finally, where the hell did you get any of the racist stuff and brandishing a gun typically makes other people run or do you consider those who hold their ground somehow magically courageous?

Yeah...conjecture but I'm just amazed that an altercation over some dog pee on a precious lawn has led to someone being killed. The article did say neighbors had noted he had a history of harassing people...one can just imagine what was said by both sides but obviously the better choice would be to act in a civil manner instead of harassing people over his lawn...it's just some damn grass. He had a significant part to play in escalating the situation and ultimately killed the guy because he pulled a gun out...getting off with just probation is ridiculous IMO.

 

[KIAman]

He pulled the gun before anything, I'm pretty sure if he hadn't pulled the gun out it would have stayed at worse a yelling match. It's ironic here how people are saying the Marine had the right to defend himself because he felt in danger. Yet they're saying the dude deserved to be shot. If a gun's pulled on me and put back away, I'm going to assume my life's still in danger. Because I was raised you don't pull a gun unless you're going to use it.

The dude who got shot saw a gun and felt he was in danger, and guess what? he defended himself. Imagine that, same thing the Marine claimed he was doing. I have asshole neighbors who spend endless hours a week on their lawn, I'd bet anything this Marine was so anal he would think it's justified to kill somebody for fucking with their precious lawn.

I understand your point except the gun part. Are you telling me that your method to defend yourself from someone who is brandishing a gun is to punch them in the face and taunt them?

I'm trying to find the logic here.

 

[Amused]

He pulled the gun before anything, I'm pretty sure if he hadn't pulled the gun out it would have stayed at worse a yelling match. It's ironic here how people are saying the Marine had the right to defend himself because he felt in danger. Yet they're saying the dude deserved to be shot. If a gun's pulled on me and put back away, I'm going to assume my life's still in danger. Because I was raised you don't pull a gun unless you're going to use it.

The dude who got shot saw a gun and felt he was in danger, and guess what? he defended himself. Imagine that, same thing the Marine claimed he was doing. I have asshole neighbors who spend endless hours a week on their lawn, I'd bet anything this Marine was so anal he would think it's justified to kill somebody for fucking with their precious lawn.

No, he pulled the gun after he felt threatened.

He shot the thug after the thug refused to leave his property and instead, assaulted him.

 

[KIAman]

Yeah...conjecture but I'm just amazed that an altercation over some dog pee on a precious lawn has led to someone being killed. The article did say neighbors had noted he had a history of harassing people...one can just imagine what was said by both sides but obviously the better choice would be to act in a civil manner instead of harassing people over his lawn...it's just some damn grass. He had a significant part to play in escalating the situation and ultimately killed the guy because he pulled a gun out...getting off with just probation is ridiculous IMO.

True, to an extend, it is rediculous. Someone metioned "Grand Torino." I'm looking at the mugshot and thinking "A Time to Kill."

 

[Andrew111]

No, he pulled the gun after he felt threatened.

He shot the thug after the thug refused to leave his property and instead, assaulted him.

You know nothing about the guy and call him a thug...how ignorant. Typically when someone walks their dog they're on the sidewalk which is public property genius. God forbid the dog wander off the sidewalk...if he loves his lawn so much he should put a fence up. Instead, he has no problem harassing people over it.

 

[Amused]

You know nothing about the guy and call him a thug...how ignorant. Typically when someone walks their dog they're on the sidewalk which is public property genius. God forbid the dog wander off the sidewalk...if he loves his lawn so much he should put a fence up. Instead, he has no problem harassing people over it.

Thug, a common criminal, who treats others violently and roughly

Any 23 year old man who first threatens, then punches a 70 year old man in the face is a fucking thug. Period.

Unless, of course, you think it's okay to violate other people's property, then assault them when they complain about it?

 

[Andrew111]

Any 23 year old man who first threatens, then punches a 70 year old man in the face is a fucking thug. Period.

Unless, of course, you think it's okay to violate other people's property, then assault them when they complain about it?

He didn't look very frail from the pic (and if he continued the physical regime he picked up in the military he is probably still in decent shape)...he also instigated the verbal altercation and there was a history of him harassing neighbors who even got near his lawn. If he gets like that even when you get near his lawn then he should put a fence up...and if the guy stood his ground on the sidewalk and was shot on public property? There is plenty that can be said to get someone very angry...especially if they walk up to you and immediately start harassing you over some dog pee on a lawn.

 

[guyver01]

Any 23 year old man who first threatens, then punches a 70 year old man in the face is a fucking thug. Period.

Unless, of course, you think it's okay to violate other people's property, then assault them when they complain about it?

One... the 69 year old man isn't FRAIL and Defenseless.

TWO... he has a history of verbally assaulting the entire neighborhood.

Charles Clements, 69, of University Park routinely wins the Chicago suburb's beautification and lawn upkeep award but is also known for threatening children or adults who dare set foot in his yard, neighbours said.

 

[qliveur]

By the time it's run its course, this thread will likely have the highest number of idiotic assumptions in the history of ATOT. Amazing.

 

[Andrew111]

The judge told Clements the slaying wasn't about a dog urinating on a lawn, but "about your reaction ... to being yelled at, pushed and punched in the face by a 23-year-old man," the Tribune reported.

I don't understand how the judge can say this when the old guy had a history of harassing/threatening neighbors. It's like the judge wasn't privy to this information and took the testimony of the old man that he was "yelled at, pushed, and punched" without considering that the old man is going to gloss over his role in sparking such a reaction and obviously did his own yelling and had a history of not just yelling but threatening others.

 

[jlee]

I don't understand how the judge can say this when the old guy had a history of harassing/threatening neighbors. It's like the judge wasn't privy to this information and took the testimony of the old man that he was "yelled at, pushed, and punched" without considering that the old man is going to gloss over his role in sparking such a reaction and obviously did his own yelling and had a history of not just yelling but threatening others. was privy to more information than I am and therefore I am incredibly unqualified from making any sensible or intelligent statement regarding his verdict.

Fixed.

 

[mcmilljb]

I don't understand how the judge can say this when the old guy had a history of harassing/threatening neighbors. It's like the judge wasn't privy to this information and took the testimony of the old man that he was "yelled at, pushed, and punched" without considering that the old man is going to gloss over his role in sparking such a reaction and obviously did his own yelling and had a history of not just yelling but threatening others.

So punching someone who yells at you is a reasonable response? Especially after he shows you a gun in hopes of scaring you off? A reasonable person would leave and possibly call the cops to place a complaint. However he chose to punch him, and he got what he deserved. If he didn't turn a VERBAL argument into a PHYSICAL altercation, then he would not have been shot.

 

[Andrew111]

So punching someone who yells at you is a reasonable response? Especially after he shows you a gun in hopes of scaring you off? A reasonable person would leave and possibly call the cops to place a complaint. However he chose to punch him, and he got what he deserved. If he didn't turn a VERBAL argument into a PHYSICAL altercation, then he would not have been shot.

And I could turn around and say it isn't reasonable to brandish a firearm in such a situation and that the former marine should have called the cops if the neighbor continued to let the dog pee on his all important lawn if he had already asked him not to do it but still let the dog do so. Instead he built a reputation in the neighborhood of harassment and threatening others...they both played it wrong but only one person pulled the trigger even if he "fired blindly". Only one person can testify to what happened since the other is dead...his history should be kept in mind though.

 

[jlee]

And I could turn around and say it isn't reasonable to brandish a firearm in such a situation and that the former marine should have called the cops if the neighbor continued to let the dog pee on his all important lawn if he had already asked him not to do it but still let the dog do so. Instead he built a reputation in the neighborhood of harassment and threatening others...they both played it wrong but only one person pulled the trigger even if he "fired blindly". Only one person can testify to what happened since the other is dead...his history should be kept in mind though.

You can't use someone's history to convict him. He also had a perfectly clean criminal record.

 

[mcmilljb]

And I could turn around and say it isn't reasonable to brandish a firearm in such a situation and that the former marine should have called the cops if the neighbor continued to let the dog pee on his all important lawn if he had already asked him not to do it but still let the dog do so. Instead he built a reputation in the neighborhood of harassment and threatening others...they both played it wrong but only one person pulled the trigger even if he "fired blindly". Only one person can testify to what happened since the other is dead...his history should be kept in mind though.

Like the judge said, it's not about the dog peeing on the lawn. More happened than that. Supposedly he verbally harassed the man's wife while she was backing out because she almost hit him. That's why he made sure to have the dog pee in his yard. It's called escalating the situation. Plus I have no problem someone pulling a gun on someone on their own property if the guest decides not to leave when asked. However this guy decided to turn this into a physical altercation. Plus the old man did not harass anyone. If I put up a sign on my lawn saying not to walk on it, and you choose to ignore it. It's not harassment when I tell you to get the fuck off my lawn. Maybe to generation Yer's who refuse to understand property rights, or people who cannot follow instructions. People in the neighborhood knew and understood. I would say the young guy was harassing the old man. If people would learn to not escalate situations, we would not have these situations. The judge saw that the young guy at every point of these series of events escalated them and had plenty of chances to walk away. However he chose to assault a man on his own property knowing the guy had a gun.

 

[jlee]

Motion to change thread title to "Man shot and killed while assaulting armed retiree"