[Steam Blog] Total War: Warhammer - pixel-edge MSAA, 64-bit, Compute Shaders and DX12

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
TOTAL WAR: WARHAMMER - OPTIMISATION BLOG

"Good morning everyone!

During Total War: Warhammer’s development, our programmers have dedicated more time to engine optimization than any other Total War game. The ultimate aim of this work is to utilise your PC’s resources more effectively, and balance those countless calculations the game performs at any given moment more evenly across CPU cores, while figuring out which tasks we can hand off to the GPU to execute. The net result is improved framerates across the spectrum of PC configurations.

We’re pleased to confirm that Total War: WARHAMMER will also be DX12 compatible, and our graphics team has been working in close concert with AMD’s engineers on the implenentation [sic]. This will be patched in a little after the game launches, but we’re really happy with the DX12 performance we’re seeing so far, so watch this space!

In non-DX12 news, our graphics team has spent considerable time on engine optimisations and there’s lots of good news in this regard, so let’s talk about specific engine optimisations which benefit everyone.

Total War has traditionally been quite CPU-bound, with the game-draw and graphics render processes both running on the same CPU thread. Over time, as the engine has evolved and become more demanding, this has become an increasingly important bottleneck for us. During the course of TWWH’s development, we’ve spent time separating these so they now run independently on their own threads. We’ve also optimized our task-system to have better multi-threading performance across the board.

In GPU terms, we’ve shifted our particle simulation pipeline from the pixel shader to the compute shader, which is a more efficient use of the GPU’s time. In fact we’ve done this with several parts of the rendering pipeline, further utilizing the GPU and letting the CPU focus on everything else it has to do.

Long story short: all of this means we’re using the CPU and the GPU more efficiently. TW: Warhammer takes better advantage of multicore CPUs, balancing the load across the cores so that no single core is maxed out and limiting framerates while others sit idle.

We’ve also switched up the Total War engine from 32 to 64-bit. While this brings no tangible performance benefits, we no longer have the 32-bit restriction of a maximum of 2GB of memory devoted to processes. The upshot is we can basically cram a greater variety of models, animations and textures into battles. One neat side benefit though is that it’s brought a reduction in end-turn times. Coupled with further optimisation we’ve done on the AI’s decision-making, this means you’ll enjoy quite noticeably reduced end-turn rounds while all the AI factions take their turns.

In the anti-aliasing department, we have morphological anti-aliasing (MLAA) and multi-sample anti-aliasing (MSAA x2, x4 and x8) as our AA options. While MLAA is a post-process effect, MSAA renders the same pixels in the scene multiple times, making it the most computationally expensive form of AA, and it therefore hits the framerate hardest. As you probably know, your typical Total War scene draws a hell of a lot of edges to smooth!

We’ve put time aside to optimize our MSAA implementation so that it runs computations in a smarter, more selective way. It doesn’t blanket multi-sample every part of every pixel now – it looks for pixel-edges and only multi-samples those. The upshot is nice smooth edges at a reduced GPU cost than before, and therefore a lower impact on your framerate. It’ll still have an impact of course; just less of an impact than in previous Total War titles.

It all adds up to a smoother-running Total War game, and we’re pretty confident you’ll feel that when you get your hands on it."

http://steamcommunity.com/app/364360/discussions/0/357286663674910868/

The game released May 24th.
http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/total-war-warhammer

Looking forward to seeing how DX12 helps lower end and more-threaded CPUs.
 

Despoiler

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2007
1,966
770
136
Already pre-ordered it. Hopefully the DX12 patch is sooner than later. RTS games are made for DX12. Fortunately, none of the press reviews have encountered any major performance issues on DX11. I have seen a custom battle with 9000 units and there is chugging that happens @ several points. Unsure of system specs. DX12 should rip right through any sized battle.
 

Olecki

Member
Jun 8, 2015
32
0
6
Already pre-ordered it. Hopefully the DX12 patch is sooner than later. RTS games are made for DX12. Fortunately, none of the press reviews have encountered any major performance issues on DX11. I have seen a custom battle with 9000 units and there is chugging that happens @ several points. Unsure of system specs. DX12 should rip right through any sized battle.

I wouldn't be so optimistic. they have a lot of work with optimalization.
1080p, i7-4790K @4500 MHz, GTX 1080, 4x4 battle and drops to 20 fps in DX11 version...

http://www.purepc.pl/rozrywka/total_war_warhammer_garsc_informacji_i_wymagania_sprzetowe
(first comment under text)
 

boozzer

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2012
1,549
18
81
damn. this is so cool. I have almost every total war game released

@oleki that is 4x4 battle if you can get 20 fps, you should be ecstatic, not mad.
 

Azix

Golden Member
Apr 18, 2014
1,438
67
91
Imagine if AMD wasn't the one helping them on this...

want to support them, but its $60....

The game will also use denuvo for those who care. They say it wont affect modding though.

There was a time I said these total war games could really use dx12, good thing they realized so early. Should be a good one.

Maybe we will get lots of information about dx12 from these guys like we got from ashes devs. Details on there async use etc. Always interesting.
 
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boozzer

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2012
1,549
18
81
Imagine if AMD wasn't the one helping them on this...

want to support them, but its $60....

The game will also use denuvo for those who care. They say it wont affect modding though.

There was a time I said these total war games could really use dx12, good thing they realized so early. Should be a good one.

Maybe we will get lots of information about dx12 from these guys like we got from ashes devs. Details on there async use etc. Always interesting.
azix, I ordered the game from a cdkeys website for 43$
 

cen1

Member
Apr 25, 2013
157
4
81
First and last time I preordered a game was Rome II.. biggest mistake of my life. So this will have to wait.
 

poohbear

Platinum Member
Mar 11, 2003
2,284
5
81
Well all the reviews that have come out have been very positive. This is a far cry from Rome 2's reviews where CA was blasted for that debacle of a launch. Seems they were very careful this time & the extended 1 month release date allowed them to optimize it further.
 

Flapdrol1337

Golden Member
May 21, 2014
1,677
93
91
You would also be supporting nasty drm practices and cut content half a year before the games release.
Thing I dislike is the chaos race as day1 dlc, "free with pre order". After massive backlash they set it to week1 purchases as well, still pretty crappy.

I will get this game eventually, but not now.
 

book_ed

Member
Apr 8, 2016
29
0
6

In GPU terms, we’ve shifted our particle simulation pipeline from the pixel shader to the compute shader, which is a more efficient use of the GPU’s time. In fact we’ve done this with several parts of the rendering pipeline, further utilizing the GPU and letting the CPU focus on everything else it has to do.

I don't get it why developers don't go as much as possible on the compute shaders side since it seems to be a better approach on doing things and why do gamers find this as a bad thing, more so since using compute you can do complex physics simulations and even having huge numbers and/(or) complex AIs?

Same with async compute and low level APIs. Am I missing something here or it's talking down on such features just to defend weaknesses in favorite IHV products?

It would be nice to actually stand for something that pushes things ahead, not just marketing.
 

boozzer

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2012
1,549
18
81
Thing I dislike is the chaos race as day1 dlc, "free with pre order". After massive backlash they set it to week1 purchases as well, still pretty crappy.

I will get this game eventually, but not now.
the dlc is now free for all pre orders and everyone who purchase the game in the first week of release.
 

DidelisDiskas

Senior member
Dec 27, 2015
233
21
81
the dlc is now free for all pre orders and everyone who purchase the game in the first week of release.

That is still a bad practice, as there are not that many competent reviews of the game that early (especially for a game that big), meaning they push you to buy it based on good will.
 

Flapdrol1337

Golden Member
May 21, 2014
1,677
93
91
I don't get it why developers don't go as much as possible on the compute shaders side since it seems to be a better approach on doing things and why do gamers find this as a bad thing, more so since using compute you can do complex physics simulations and even having huge numbers and/(or) complex AIs?

Same with async compute and low level APIs. Am I missing something here or it's talking down on such features just to defend weaknesses in favorite IHV products?

It would be nice to actually stand for something that pushes things ahead, not just marketing.
I'd say it's pretty understandable from a nvidia user's perspective. So far dx12 has been completely pointless for them as they manage the same performance under dx11. Implementing dx12 is extra work which could have been spent elsewhere.

From an amd perspective it's different, since amd really seems to "need" dx12 to get the most out of the hardware, and under dx11 some of the fancy stuff on the gpu just sits there wasting space and power.
 

boozzer

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2012
1,549
18
81
That is still a bad practice, as there are not that many competent reviews of the game that early (especially for a game that big), meaning they push you to buy it based on good will.
there is already 2, 1 hour long lets plays on youtube. completely uncut. that is what I use to determine what game i want to buy. I don't trust any reviews(all reviewers) except a few youtube channels who plays alot of total war(this game). and totalbiscuit.

2 hours of uncut gameplay, if you can't decide after that, I don't think anything can help you. nda was lifted.
 

maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
4,787
4,771
136
I don't get it why developers don't go as much as possible on the compute shaders side since it seems to be a better approach on doing things and why do gamers find this as a bad thing, more so since using compute you can do complex physics simulations and even having huge numbers and/(or) complex AIs?

Same with async compute and low level APIs. Am I missing something here or it's talking down on such features just to defend weaknesses in favorite IHV products?

It would be nice to actually stand for something that pushes things ahead, not just marketing.
YES.

Doing something to improve the state of the art is always good. State of the art meaning, performance and/or visuals.

Doing something to reduce state of the art, as defined, is not good.

Defending the latter is partisan posting.
 

DidelisDiskas

Senior member
Dec 27, 2015
233
21
81
there is already 2, 1 hour long lets plays on youtube. completely uncut. that is what I use to determine what game i want to buy. I don't trust any reviews(all reviewers) except a few youtube channels who plays alot of total war(this game). and totalbiscuit.

2 hours of uncut gameplay, if you can't decide after that, I don't think anything can help you. nda was lifted.

Might or might not be enough, the last time i played a total war game, it took me that much to just figure out the gameplay mechanics, before seriously delving into the campaign.

The game might turn out to be great and bug free (unlike TW:R2) for all i know, but the practice of hiding game content behind pre-purchase (or the first week in this case) wall is in no way benefiting the gamer and puts a bad precedent for drawing the line even further the next time.
 

boozzer

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2012
1,549
18
81
Might or might not be enough, the last time i played a total war game, it took me that much to just figure out the gameplay mechanics, before seriously delving into the campaign.

The game might turn out to be great and bug free (unlike TW:R2) for all i know, but the practice of hiding game content behind pre-purchase (or the first week in this case) wall is in no way benefiting the gamer and puts a bad precedent for drawing the line even further the next time.
a youtube guy who have hundreds of total war videos said he has played 30 hours of the game, it performs better than attila and zero crashes so far after 30 hours.

like I said, if 2 hours of uncut gameplay footage is not enough, I doubt anything will be. don't tell me you trust reviews?
 

Spjut

Senior member
Apr 9, 2011
928
149
106
I don't get it why developers don't go as much as possible on the compute shaders side since it seems to be a better approach on doing things and why do gamers find this as a bad thing, more so since using compute you can do complex physics simulations and even having huge numbers and/(or) complex AIs?

Same with async compute and low level APIs. Am I missing something here or it's talking down on such features just to defend weaknesses in favorite IHV products?

It would be nice to actually stand for something that pushes things ahead, not just marketing.

It takes time and resources to do the necessary changes for that. And perhaps those changes are only good for modern hardware and not for the older supported hardware.

Total War Warhammer still officially supports the HD 5770 (2009 GPU) and the GTS 450.

When the Xbox One and PS4 were released, multiplat games started ditching DX10/10.1 hardware, which didn't support compute shader 5.0.

When it comes to PC exclusives, it's extra important to keep the requirements low. Alot of PC exclusives kept using DX9 despite officially requiring DX10 hardware (XP was still the dominant OS during those years).
 

DidelisDiskas

Senior member
Dec 27, 2015
233
21
81
a youtube guy who have hundreds of total war videos said he has played 30 hours of the game, it performs better than attila and zero crashes so far after 30 hours.

That's great, maybe they finally bothered to fix the game before the release.

like I said, if 2 hours of uncut gameplay footage is not enough, I doubt anything will be.

Those 2 hours don't cover bugs and a good feel of the game and its gameplay, your first paragraph does instill more confidence though.

don't tell me you trust reviews?

I generally don't buy games at release and either wait for a good number of people to review it one something like metacritic to see if there is any general consensus, or wait before the price drops.
 

Zanovar

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2011
3,446
232
106
Looking forward to this game.i might wait a month or 2 before i get stuck in.
 

book_ed

Member
Apr 8, 2016
29
0
6
I'd say it's pretty understandable from a nvidia user's perspective. So far dx12 has been completely pointless for them as they manage the same performance under dx11. Implementing dx12 is extra work which could have been spent elsewhere.

From an amd perspective it's different, since amd really seems to "need" dx12 to get the most out of the hardware, and under dx11 some of the fancy stuff on the gpu just sits there wasting space and power.

Extra work and performance (especially) also goes in GW effects that could go elsewhere. Some nvidia users saw increases in TR under dx12. At the end of the day it's kind of sad to downplay something just because you cannot do yet or because your favorite team is not behind it - yet.

It takes time and resources to do the necessary changes for that. And perhaps those changes are only good for modern hardware and not for the older supported hardware.

Total War Warhammer still officially supports the HD 5770 (2009 GPU) and the GTS 450.

When the Xbox One and PS4 were released, multiplat games started ditching DX10/10.1 hardware, which didn't support compute shader 5.0.

When it comes to PC exclusives, it's extra important to keep the requirements low. Alot of PC exclusives kept using DX9 despite officially requiring DX10 hardware (XP was still the dominant OS during those years).

I'm talking here about current and future games, not dx9/10. Besides, we had quite a few that had pretty high system requirements. At the same time dx12 shows you can have lower hardware (CPUs) for the same performance, so by adding dx12 to you game, as developer, you could stand to at least keep the same target demographic (again, not all go for low end).
 
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