Steam page shows 3 announcements coming

[tviceman]

Dell does not pay $100 for a copy of Windows. If it pays at all, in net terms.
The Ubuntu version of one product was $50 cheaper.
Some Linux versions are more expensive because Dell gets paid by other companies to bundle their products e.g. trial versions of Norton, which reduces the net cost paid for Windows.

http://readwrite.com/2013/03/07/mic...rs-windows-8-in-trouble#awesm=~oimm15vNEbpWlM

Usual bundle price of Office AND Windows is $120. Windows alone is not going to be $100 even for "regular" pricing to a big OEM like Dell etc.
And it's being discounted to $30 for some systems.

Trial versions of Norton do not reduce the cost of windows, it pads Dell's pockets. And anyone buying a PC from Dell to game on is an idiot. Anyone buying a gaming capable PC from Dell is going to be paying way more than the sum of the parts bought separately, so whether or not Dell is getting volume discount is moot as the savings are not passed on. And in Blackend's case, he is talking about buying a PC that isn't even gaming capable to being with.

A system builder like you or I, or someone who shops at boutique builders, will pay the OEM full price for a license of Windows. That is exactly what I was referring to. Many people who don't see the significance or opportunity in this development today will in 2-3 years.

 

[smackababy]

Many people who don't see the significance or opportunity in this development today will in 2-3 years.

Linux-ites have been saying that for years. Linux has been a commercial failure in the home PC market. Valve might change that, but anything above skepticism is ignoring a long history of evidence to the contrary.

 

[Skel]

I don't get the message Valve is spreading. They want all pc-gamers to start gaming from their couch with controllers? Wouldn't we just get a console then?
What does it mean when the so-called saviors of pc gaming want us all to be pseudo-console gamers? Maybe that's an exaggeration, but still, I don't care for the direction they're going.

I pointed out yesterday that nothing says PC gaming is dying like it's biggest champion talking about getting into the console business. Of course you'll hear that they're just offering you an "alternative" to Windows that just happens to connect to the living room... like a console.

I still don't understand the overwhelming negativity surrounding it. We've been gaming on an OS primarily designed for business for several decades now, and they've let the gaming side it languish for the better part of the last decade. The company most responsible for picking up that slack and making PC gaming viable again, is taking a step back and creating an OS that's first and foremost about games. A chance at a fresh start that can remove all the cruft that's built up over the past few decades of windows. And under terms that should be agreeable to the entire industry, both hardware and software. I don't understand how anyone can hear that and not be excited.

You know what other OSs are about gaming first? Consoles.. regardless of the value add and what people may think of that value add, it's a machine with a stripped down OS to play games.

More than likely this is just a PC with Steam maximized, not an actual SteamBox. If not, then I've had a SteamBox for around 10 years. :biggrin:

I've seen the Steam advertisements at Best Buy before, so I'm pretty sure that's exactly what it is.

 

[BD2003]

Except none of those consoles let you swap the hardware. The xbone/PS4 are already starting out with games that don't even run at 1080p, let alone 60fps. They're underpowered little boxes that probably won't change hardware wise for another 7-8 years.

Right now there's an unserved market of gamers who want to game on their couch with the typical ease of use of a console, but don't want to compromise on tech in order to do so. This is the first platform in the history of gaming to address that.

Worst case scenario for desk based PC gamers is that the PC version gets more attention than before. What a nightmare!

 

[irishScott]

I pointed out yesterday that nothing says PC gaming is dying like it's biggest champion talking about getting into the console business. Of course you'll hear that they're just offering you an "alternative" to Windows that just happens to connect to the living room... like a console.

The relevant question is: Is the PC turning into a consoles, or are consoles turning into PCs? The answer is somewhere in the middle, but given the expanding capabilities of consoles over the years I see a definite trend towards the latter. People want consoles with the entertainment capabilities of a PC.

In any case, if the Steam Box takes off and truly brings gaming to linux, then linux ports for regular PCs will be a breeze (just add mouse/keyboard support) which will result in a steep decline in "consolization".

 

[smackababy]

The relevant question is: Is the PC turning into a consoles, or are consoles turning into PCs? The answer is somewhere in the middle, but given the expanding capabilities of consoles over the years I see a definite trend towards the latter. People want consoles with the entertainment capabilities of a PC.

In any case, if the Steam Box takes off and truly brings gaming to linux, then linux ports for regular PCs will be a breeze (just add mouse/keyboard support) which will result in a steep decline in "consolization".

The problem is the consoles are getting PC features and the PC games are losing features in favor of consoles. It isn't somewhere in the middle. It is one evolving and one devolving. At least, that is what the PC gamers would have you believe.

I don't think developers will readily switch to Linux for a good while even with adoption. Some more PC friendly devs might (like the ones that already do support Linux), but the majority will use the DX libraries and just change a check box or two for the compiler, add in a graphics options section of code, and recompile for PC from their Xbox version. It should be that easy. And it includes controller support in the box, because it is default in DX library. MS was really smart adding that in.

 

[destrekor]

I pointed out yesterday that nothing says PC gaming is dying like it's biggest champion talking about getting into the console business. Of course you'll hear that they're just offering you an "alternative" to Windows that just happens to connect to the living room... like a console.

This isn't saying that PC gaming is dying and that consoles are where it's at - it's recognizing that many PC gamers would actually prefer to play some of their PC games in their living room.

I can't, not without a half-assed effort with broken controls and a pain in the ass to get working for each and every game.


The solution to home theater PC gaming isn't to just take a long HDMI cable from PC to TV/Receiver - that addresses one and only problem.
I don't want to game with Mouse and Keyboard from the couch, and preferably, I'd rather never touch the damn things if I'm in the living room. I like using a Harmony and console remotes.
There are a handful of PC games that I'd find far more enjoyable on the couch with a controller with the full home-theater experience. Other games, you couldn't get me to play anywhere other than at the desk with keyboard and mouse.

 

[hoorah]

Apparently these are showing up at Best Buys.

Interesting. I think Valve is really trying to separate themselves from being an entity that PC gamers know everything about and casual/console gamers know nothing about to being an equal contender next to Xbox and PS4 - something you buy alongside the big players at best buy and walmart.

The consoles have always had the hardware/software down (efficient use of hardware, easy enough for a 7 year old to use, no driver issues to worry about), but never had a great ecosystem like steam.

Steams had the great ecosystem for awhile, but no hardware until now (maybe).

I get the feeling that this whole thing valve is doing is not a "Hey, you know what would be really cool?" idea. Its a "Woah, the market is headed towards closed ecosystems dominated by whomever owns the O/S. We need to get a foothold before we start paying microsoft, apple, or sony 30% of everything we sell to be in THEIR store".

 

[Red Storm]

I get the feeling that this whole thing valve is doing is not a "Hey, you know what would be really cool?" idea. Its a "Woah, the market is headed towards closed ecosystems dominated by whomever owns the O/S. We need to get a foothold before we start paying microsoft, apple, or sony 30% of everything we sell to be in THEIR store".

This is exactly the reason but a lot of people here seem blind to it.

 

[cmdrdredd]

This is exactly the reason but a lot of people here seem blind to it.

Many people including me don't think it will take off. We've listed the reasons why. I'll repeat a few.

Linux doesn't run DX11 which is the standard and will be the standard for the Xbox One which will have more marketshare than any steam box because it's an Xbox, the name sells. It will be far, far easier to develop a game for consoles and bring it over to the PC using DX11 this way, or like some developers alluded to, start on the windows PC using DX11 and bring it to consoles. So the games selection will be very limited despite whatever claims Gabe makes about "lots of AAA titles to announce". Well, we already know about tons of games that will work fine on Windows right now.

Windows has more users and there's millions of people happily using steam on windows who won't be going out to buy a low power box when they are running a good PC currently

People who don't game on PC can get more titles on a Playstation or Xbox along with unique games that are exclusive due to the hardware manufacturer owning the development studio.

People who do game on PC know it's easy to bring your PC to your Living room and run an HDMI cable Just have steam load at startup and click big picture and you never need your keyboard. You can emulate the mouse with a controller using the proper software so you wouldn't need a mouse either.

Except none of those consoles let you swap the hardware. The xbone/PS4 are already starting out with games that don't even run at 1080p, let alone 60fps. They're underpowered little boxes that probably won't change hardware wise for another 7-8 years.

Right now there's an unserved market of gamers who want to game on their couch with the typical ease of use of a console, but don't want to compromise on tech in order to do so. This is the first platform in the history of gaming to address that.

Worst case scenario for desk based PC gamers is that the PC version gets more attention than before. What a nightmare!

How exactly would steam boxes do that? You talk about underpowered but I assure you, none of these boxes will run GTX 770/HD 7970 level cards and overclocked i7 CPUs. Home theater/living room hardware is much smaller form factor than a typical gaming PC. I saw someone say Tegra on another forum and I had to laugh...tegra, and you expect to play Witcher 3 on this thing? Plus with everyone under the sun making them you'll have to get support for it somehow. I know Asus isn't exactly known as having the best tech support in the industry for example. If it uses Nvidia hardware I can see Nvidia referring you to the OEM that builds it.

 

[hoorah]

The relevant question is: Is the PC turning into a consoles, or are consoles turning into PCs? The answer is somewhere in the middle, but given the expanding capabilities of consoles over the years I see a definite trend towards the latter. People want consoles with the entertainment capabilities of a PC.

I think its actually the opposite - that PCs are turning into consoles. Consoles have always been PCs hardware-wise, but the trade off was that customizability was removed in favor of convenience and uniformity. You lose the ability to add a new graphics card every year, but you gain the confidence that you didn't just drop $50 on a game that gets 4fps because you didn't realize how slow your PC was. The console "OS" was an hard boundary between the user and the hardware.

Thats the way I see the SteamOS going. It will control everything from UI, drivers, storage, third party apps, login accounts, etc in a way that you interact with the OS only, and not the underlying hardware. Increased capabilities of onboard graphics/APUs and consoles moving to the same platform will really facilitate this, I think.

 

[tviceman]

Linux-ites have been saying that for years. Linux has been a commercial failure in the home PC market. Valve might change that, but anything above skepticism is ignoring a long history of evidence to the contrary.

I tried to install Ubuntu for the first time when Steam Linux was officially released. It was a nightmare. Not the actual installation, but everything after that. Getting it to work properly with up-to-date drivers and my hardware was archaic and foreign.

My entire experience sums up why Linux has not gained any traction. Ubuntu, even with all it's hoopla, is not made for everyday people. If Valve "makes it work" like any OS should, then it should finally start to gain traction. Keep in mind this won't be viewed as "Linux," just like Android and Chrome isn't viewed as Linux. Once it's out and thoroughly tested, no one will care what the base code is underneath.

 

[smackababy]

The consoles have always had the hardware/software down (efficient use of hardware, easy enough for a 7 year old to use, no driver issues to worry about), but never had a great ecosystem like steam.

You obviously haven't been following the Xbox One "debacle". They tried to do what is essential Steam but with more, and better, features: sharing of some kind that doesn't require you to not be playing any game, the ability to resell your digital games, etc. And the internet threw a fit about it. Steam is going to come in and be like "hey look at all these cool features PC gamers have had for 10 years!" and console gamers are going to say "hey look at this moron who is copying Xbox!"

 

[smackababy]

I tried to install Ubuntu for the first time when Steam Linux was officially released. It was a nightmare. Not the actual installation, but everything after that. Getting it to work properly with up-to-date drivers and my hardware was archaic and foreign.

My entire experience sums up why Linux has not gained any traction. Ubuntu, even with all it's hoopla, is not made for everyday people. If Valve "makes it work" like any OS should, then it should finally start to gain traction. Keep in mind this won't be viewed as "Linux," just like Android and Chrome isn't viewed as Linux. Once it's out and thoroughly tested, no one will care what the base code is underneath.

It is a good thing you didn't try and go search forums to get help. The Linux community are very unhelpful. They are abrasive neckbeards who think because they learned how to use Linux before you, they are of superior genes (which will never get passed along anywhere). >_>

 

[Red Storm]

Many people including me don't think it won't take off. We've listed the reasons why. I'll repeat a few.

No no, this isn't about making Linux a gaming platform. This is about what hoorah and I said, Valve securing their future against potential lock-in from Apple, Google, and most importantly Microsoft. They can't tie their multi-billion dollar business to another company's decisions.

 

[smackababy]

No no, this isn't about making Linux a gaming platform. This is about what hoorah and I said, Valve securing their future against potential lock-in from Apple, Google, and most importantly Microsoft. They can't tie their multi-billion dollar business to another company's decisions.

I don't think anyone disagrees this isn't a bad direction for them to move into. We just don't think it will work. Ideally, games would be platform agnostic. You download the binary and it runs in some VM on any platform; similar to Java, but without being terrible for real performance.

 

[cmdrdredd]

It is a good thing you didn't try and go search forums to get help. The Linux community are very unhelpful. They are abrasive neckbeards who think because they learned how to use Linux before you, they are of superior genes (which will never get passed along anywhere). >_>

In my experience a lot of people using Linux and that visit forums do have this attitude that only real tech nerds who can almost code their own drivers should be able to use linux. I got the answer once "If you can't figure it out go use Windows." So I did, installed Windows 7 on the laptop I was trying to get Linux working on and never looked back.

 

[cmdrdredd]

No no, this isn't about making Linux a gaming platform. This is about what hoorah and I said, Valve securing their future against potential lock-in from Apple, Google, and most importantly Microsoft. They can't tie their multi-billion dollar business to another company's decisions.

Windows 8 works happily with Steam and I suspect will always work in windows if Valve continues to support it by updating it as necessary. Microsoft has done nothing to hinder steam. I suspect that steam on windows is what keeps a lot of people running windows and off MacOS X too.

 

[hoorah]

Many people including me don't think it won't take off. We've listed the reasons why. I'll repeat a few.

So the games selection will be very limited despite whatever claims Gabe makes about "lots of AAA titles to announce". Well, we already know about tons of games that will work fine on Windows right now.

Windows has more users and there's millions of people happily using steam on windows who won't be going out to buy a low power box when they are running a good PC currently.

It may not be an instant hit, or even a hit at all, but I still think its a move they have to make.

I see this as really similar to the Windows tablets. Microsoft didn't build a tablet because they had fantastic vision and thought they could do something really special to meet an unmet marketplace need. They did it because something (market research, trends, sales data, whatever those marketing people use) said "This is the next marketplace. Its app stores, in-app purchases, and locked-in ecosystems on portable devices. This is where we need to have a presence to succeed in the future". So they forced the tablet OS on everyone. Everyone complained that windows was fine the way it was - why did they mess with it? Because its not about whats working right now, its about whats going to work in the future. Of course, theres a big difference between a parallel product allowed to succeed or fail of its own right and forcing a product as the only option in an attempt to boost market share. I guess we will have to see which path Valve takes.

People who do game on PC know it's easy to bring your PC to your Living room and run an HDMI cable Just have steam load at startup and click big picture and you never need your keyboard. You can emulate the mouse with a controller using the proper software so you wouldn't need a mouse either.

Sort of. Remember to think lowest common denominator here. Yes, you can 'easily' attach a PC to the TV via HDMI, but I would say more people don't know that than do. On top of that, I think there are a lot of 10 year old Xbox gamers that, if they dragged their PC out into the living room to hook up to the TV, would be told by their fathers to put it back and quit cluttering up the house. My age and grumpiness are showing

 

[cmdrdredd]

Sort of. Remember to think lowest common denominator here. Yes, you can 'easily' attach a PC to the TV via HDMI, but I would say more people don't know that than do. On top of that, I think there are a lot of 10 year old Xbox gamers that, if they dragged their PC out into the living room to hook up to the TV, would be told by their fathers to put it back and quit cluttering up the house. My age and grumpiness are showing

If someone can't plug in their Tv via HDMI how do they plug in a Blu-Ray player or a Playstation? You just literally plug it in and change the input and see a picture. Or do you mean they don't know you can do that? When many monitors hook up via HDMI it never occurs to them, "woah I can just plug into the TV."?

I dunno...I simply can't fathom that.

 

[hoorah]

Windows 8 works happily with Steam and I suspect will always work in windows if Valve continues to support it by updating it as necessary. Microsoft has done nothing to hinder steam. I suspect that steam on windows is what keeps a lot of people running windows and off MacOS X too.

I agree with you, but I'm not sure it will always work. I think thats the billion dollar question right there. If it doesn't, then what? Can't be late to the party.

I dont exactly remember, and I'm a bit too lazy to look it up, but I do recall something that Gabe said around 6 months or so before the windows 8 launch about how he was not looking forward to the way that microsoft was locking in their online store, and that he wasn't going to risk running steam on their terms. A few people somewhat sarcastically said "Year of the linux desktop!", everyone laughed, and moved on. Actually, I think that might have been where those "HL3 on linux only" rumors came about. Like I said I didn't pay attention all that thoroughly.

I suspect that kind of sentiment is what is driving a lot of this. Sure, steam works fine on windows right now, but what if, in the future microsoft gets to be enough of a player in the market place that they start to restrict software to items purchased through the microsoft store? Never happen? Maybe, maybe not.

What if Windows RT had taken off, and everyone was using a tablet with a clip on keyboard and mouse to play games? Sure, they're not going to run Crysis or HL3, but 30% of 'Plants vs Zombies' and 'candy crush' in-game purchases is a little more than lunch money. Its easy to look down our noses at casual gamers, but they bring in real dollars.

I'd be interested to see a pie-chart of Valve's current revenue from games needing the top third of CPU/GPU performance, middle third, and bottom third.

 

[Red Storm]

I suspect will always work

Are you willing to bet billions on it? Cause that's what's at stake here for Valve. We can guess and be fine no matter the outcome, Valve doesn't have that luxury.

 

[smackababy]

It is funny that everyone is talking about MS being the bad guy here. What if Valve does the same thing? Aren't they essentially saying "hey everyone that is selling through Steam, either do what we want or find some other digital distribution outlet that has this many users." What happens when Gabe just says "I hate Windows! Steam is Linux only!"? You lose everything on your Steam profile that ported at that point, but MS is the bad guy.

 

[Stringjam]

In my experience a lot of people using Linux and that visit forums do have this attitude that only real tech nerds who can almost code their own drivers should be able to use linux. I got the answer once "If you can't figure it out go use Windows." So I did, installed Windows 7 on the laptop I was trying to get Linux working on and never looked back.

I used to work a lot with Linux at my last job. Unfortunately I was met with the same attitude on most 'nix forums.

I know how to RTFM, and I do, but these guys are part of the reason people get scared off from Linux.

I personally would love to see a bunch of effort dumped into openGL and drivers for this effort (as it appears it will be). I don't see anything bad coming from that.

 

[tential]

I don't agree. The cost of the windows license is negotiable these days (tablets with Bay Trail get it at a minor cost) and in the overall big picture - the OS cost is minor in comparison to the cost of quality hardware. There is really no way around this; the hardware in any PC type box costs a lot of money. So much so that making a quality game capable PC box makes any OS license negligible.

Does the Windows license make a difference? In a 300$ Bay Trail tablet, sure why not. But when you're looking at the 1500$+ in BOM for a quality PC gaming experience, nobody really cares about adding 50$ on to that for a Windows license. The OS is probably the smallest cost factor involved, IMHO.

Basically, Steam OS exists for monetary reasons - if they essentially lock an audience into steam os they will ensure that they monopolize PC digital distribution. This will be a tough sell, though, because they have to convince developers. I don't imagine that will happen aside from a few indie titles because the great majority of PC gamers are using Windows 7 and 8 and do not have a compelling reason to switch.

Like I already said multiple times. This SteamOS is not aimed at ANY person in this thread. Not a single person here should care about it. We all have gaming PCs, we aren't buying a SteamBox to play games or worrying about the cost of windows on our 1k+ PCs.

This is a LONG TERM thing, just like Steam itself was on Windows when it was first released. Valve is simply launching it's own linux platform which yes has existed for awhile and is free. It's a gesture to further encourage people to code for Linux as well.

SteamOS is not for the 1k+ PC market. It's for the Sub $500 SteamBox market when they announce steam this week. Steam knows full well they'll never move a majority of the true PCGamers to SteamOS it's nto possible. Too many people have Windows applications that can't be used on Linux. But, if I want to build a PURE gaming or buy a Steam Box and be able to game on it without having to worry about buying a windows license SteamOS exists.

Like you said, people will NEVER stop developing for Windows first so trust me, VAlve isn't dumb enough to convince people to switch to Linux. They just want to be able to compete IN THE LIVING room. It's OBVIOUS from annoucnement, to interviews, etc. that this is a direct assault on consoles and trying to get into the living room. This is what companies care about. The LIVING ROOM.