Steam/Valve disabled my account

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brikis98

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2005
7,253
8
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: brikis98
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: lxskllr
This is my last post on this topic, I'm finished with it, and with you. I played the hell out of the original HL, and I've never spent 1 second on a CS server. If you can't see how bad the graphics are in HL2 then you're blind. The textures looked like crap for the most part, and the low polys they used in some of the models was very apparent. I already stated they did a good hjob with the people and the water, but that was it. The noticable fogging in many of the levels points to an unoptimized engine. As far as the gameplay goes the driving levels were tedious, and the puzzles were uninspired. The rest of the game was standard fps fare. You need to lay off the fanboyism and take an objective look at what you're talking about.

As to the Windows comparison, that's to demonstrate the correct way to implement piracy protection. Steam is not.

hehe, oh my.

You'll be shocked to know that Fogging is optomization, not the lack thereof. Without the Fog you'd be complaining about the poor performance.

well... IMO, fog is more of a "hack" or workaround put in to improve performance BECAUSE the developers didn't/couldn't optimize the graphics in any other way. having said that, i personally think HL 2 had very good graphics and don't really agree with lxskllr's opinion on that matter.

The other ways of Optomizing would have the same effect, that is cutting the render distance. You can use Fog or place objects within the players view with Antiportals(some engines automatically cull graphics behind cetain types of objects, such as BSP) inside the objects to cull everything on the other side. Fog is widely used in open areas because it just looks better.

again, those are both workarounds. yes, they "optimize" the game in the sense that it runs faster, but they are not actual optimizations to the code.

if you know anything about computer science, you know that programs/algorithms are typically analyzed in terms of run time, typically using big-Oh notation. the kind of optimizations i'm talking about would be, for example, to rework an algorithm to reduce it from O(n^2) to O(nlogn). this would actually make the game faster, allowing your video card to render those far distances without the need for a hack like fog.

did valve go through their code and improve the efficiency of every method, use the best algorithms, data structures, etc? i have no idea. i don't work there, haven't seen the code, etc. it's quite possible the code is as tight as it can be and fog is a necessary workaround to make the game playable. but, at the same time, valve could've been pressed for time and just used any algorithm they could think of and the code is an inefficient POS. in that case, they threw in the fog because it's faster than ACTUALLY optimizing their graphics engine.

long story short, neither of us can really know how well written (algorithmically) the Source graphics engine is. but fog and reduced render distance are, as i said, just hacks or workarounds used when the engine is not efficient enough, whatever may be the cause.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,232
5,807
126
Originally posted by: brikis98
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: brikis98
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: lxskllr
This is my last post on this topic, I'm finished with it, and with you. I played the hell out of the original HL, and I've never spent 1 second on a CS server. If you can't see how bad the graphics are in HL2 then you're blind. The textures looked like crap for the most part, and the low polys they used in some of the models was very apparent. I already stated they did a good hjob with the people and the water, but that was it. The noticable fogging in many of the levels points to an unoptimized engine. As far as the gameplay goes the driving levels were tedious, and the puzzles were uninspired. The rest of the game was standard fps fare. You need to lay off the fanboyism and take an objective look at what you're talking about.

As to the Windows comparison, that's to demonstrate the correct way to implement piracy protection. Steam is not.

hehe, oh my.

You'll be shocked to know that Fogging is optomization, not the lack thereof. Without the Fog you'd be complaining about the poor performance.

well... IMO, fog is more of a "hack" or workaround put in to improve performance BECAUSE the developers didn't/couldn't optimize the graphics in any other way. having said that, i personally think HL 2 had very good graphics and don't really agree with lxskllr's opinion on that matter.

The other ways of Optomizing would have the same effect, that is cutting the render distance. You can use Fog or place objects within the players view with Antiportals(some engines automatically cull graphics behind cetain types of objects, such as BSP) inside the objects to cull everything on the other side. Fog is widely used in open areas because it just looks better.

again, those are both workarounds. yes, they "optimize" the game in the sense that it runs faster, but they are not actual optimizations to the code.

if you know anything about computer science, you know that programs/algorithms are typically analyzed in terms of run time, typically using big-Oh notation. the kind of optimizations i'm talking about would be, for example, to rework an algorithm to reduce it from O(n^2) to O(nlogn). this would actually make the game faster, allowing your video card to render those far distances without the need for a hack like fog.

did valve go through their code and improve the efficiency of every method, use the best algorithms, data structures, etc? i have no idea. i don't work there, haven't seen the code, etc. it's quite possible the code is as tight as it can be and fog is a necessary workaround to make the game playable. but, at the same time, valve could've been pressed for time and just used any algorithm they could think of and the code is an inefficient POS. in that case, they threw in the fog because it's faster than ACTUALLY optimizing their graphics engine.

long story short, neither of us can really know how well written (algorithmically) the Source graphics engine is. but fog and reduced render distance are, as i said, just hacks or workarounds used when the engine is not efficient enough, whatever may be the cause.

Optomizing code can't overcome the limitations of graphics rendering. IOWs, it is not the code that needs optomizing. The bottleneck lies in videocards not the cpu.
 

brikis98

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2005
7,253
8
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: brikis98
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: brikis98
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: lxskllr
This is my last post on this topic, I'm finished with it, and with you. I played the hell out of the original HL, and I've never spent 1 second on a CS server. If you can't see how bad the graphics are in HL2 then you're blind. The textures looked like crap for the most part, and the low polys they used in some of the models was very apparent. I already stated they did a good hjob with the people and the water, but that was it. The noticable fogging in many of the levels points to an unoptimized engine. As far as the gameplay goes the driving levels were tedious, and the puzzles were uninspired. The rest of the game was standard fps fare. You need to lay off the fanboyism and take an objective look at what you're talking about.

As to the Windows comparison, that's to demonstrate the correct way to implement piracy protection. Steam is not.

hehe, oh my.

You'll be shocked to know that Fogging is optomization, not the lack thereof. Without the Fog you'd be complaining about the poor performance.

well... IMO, fog is more of a "hack" or workaround put in to improve performance BECAUSE the developers didn't/couldn't optimize the graphics in any other way. having said that, i personally think HL 2 had very good graphics and don't really agree with lxskllr's opinion on that matter.

The other ways of Optomizing would have the same effect, that is cutting the render distance. You can use Fog or place objects within the players view with Antiportals(some engines automatically cull graphics behind cetain types of objects, such as BSP) inside the objects to cull everything on the other side. Fog is widely used in open areas because it just looks better.

again, those are both workarounds. yes, they "optimize" the game in the sense that it runs faster, but they are not actual optimizations to the code.

if you know anything about computer science, you know that programs/algorithms are typically analyzed in terms of run time, typically using big-Oh notation. the kind of optimizations i'm talking about would be, for example, to rework an algorithm to reduce it from O(n^2) to O(nlogn). this would actually make the game faster, allowing your video card to render those far distances without the need for a hack like fog.

did valve go through their code and improve the efficiency of every method, use the best algorithms, data structures, etc? i have no idea. i don't work there, haven't seen the code, etc. it's quite possible the code is as tight as it can be and fog is a necessary workaround to make the game playable. but, at the same time, valve could've been pressed for time and just used any algorithm they could think of and the code is an inefficient POS. in that case, they threw in the fog because it's faster than ACTUALLY optimizing their graphics engine.

long story short, neither of us can really know how well written (algorithmically) the Source graphics engine is. but fog and reduced render distance are, as i said, just hacks or workarounds used when the engine is not efficient enough, whatever may be the cause.

Optomizing code can't overcome the limitations of graphics rendering. IOWs, it is not the code that needs optomizing. The bottleneck lies in videocards not the cpu.

at some limit, yes, the graphics card is the bottleneck. but i couldn't disagree with you more about code needing optimizing.

simple example: the original rainbow six game. even for its time, the graphics were not too impressive but the game took a BEAST of a video card to run. other games with far more impressive eye candy ran far more smoothly on the same hardware.

reason? the rainbow six code was VERY inefficient. it, coincidentally, relied on lots and lots of fog.

in the real world of software engineering, you'll find that most programs need a LOT of work to actually be efficient. and in the extremely high stress video game business (just read about the hours that valve employees put in), where games are frequently rushed out the door before completion, code is often very unoptimized and full of "hacks" and workarounds like fog.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,232
5,807
126
Again, Fog is not a hack. You could optomize the code until the cows come home, but you'll still need to optomize using Fog or other graphics culling techniques to get decent performance.
 

mundane

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2002
5,603
8
81
No current game engine can render infinite draw distances real time for any realistic level of complexity. Even Far Cry, with its amazing environment, had to rely on 'hacks', as you call them.
 

duragezic

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
11,234
4
81
Source is ineffecient? Wow... For its time I'd say its one of the most efficient and scalable engines out. Sure there are games that have better graphics, sure some run at lightning speed, but as a whole package, I think it is truly excellent. HL2 and the Source games like DoD:S and CS:S are awesome (net code is quite good).. very well-done, and few bugs.
 

brikis98

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2005
7,253
8
0
sigh. i never said source was inefficient. in fact, i wrote:

i personally think HL 2 had very good graphics
...
i don't work there, haven't seen the code, etc. it's quite possible the code is as tight as it can be and fog is a necessary workaround to make the game playable

However, I still argue that fog is a workaround. Let me try to explain this as I see it.

The problem, as someone mentioned, is that no game engine (or video card) can render infinite distances. Of course, humans can't see infinite distances anyway, so this isn't necessary. Moreover, in real life there's almost alway something a finite distance away making it unnecessary to render everything. Moreover, as objects get further away, we see less and less detail. Once they are very far away, they are little more than distant blurs and shapes on the horizon.

The solution to the rendering distance problem is to efficiently implement rendering different levels of detail for objects at a distance. Objects that are very far away (near the horizon) would be rendered as no more than simple polygons which would significantly reduce the strain on the video card. I think oblivion does something like this and its very effective. Is it perfect and garaunteed to run on every video card? No. Is it easy to implement? No. Is it possible and an actual (that is, REALISTIC) solution? Yes.

Fog, on the other hand, is the workaround to avoid the much more complicated coding. It's not realistic, as in some games you get fog in desserts, tundras, inside very large buildings, etc. And fog doesn't solve "the problem." Remember office space and how milton wasn't supposed to work there? The SOLUTION was to fire him. Their WORKAROUND was to stop sending him paychecks.

now, i don't remember how half life 2 renders objects at a distance since I haven't been able to play the game for more than a year. and, as you can see by the title of this thread, i can't check now. iirc, HL 2 did reduce detail at a distance but it did make use of fog too. whatever the case, it's irrelevant to my actual point: fog is a hack. but not all hacks are bad. in fact, some are very elegant workarounds that are much easier to implement than the actual solutions. fog, in moderation, is an effective workaround. too much of it, as we saw in older games (like rainbow six), looks awful though.
 
Jun 14, 2003
10,442
0
0
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Originally posted by: Smilin
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Originally posted by: lxskllr

Pt#4 This doesn't pertain to this issue, but HL2 was garbage.

Easy there fella, put down the crack pipe and step away from the computer....


Cut him some slack.

Fisher just pretty much attacked him in a personal manner several times because he didn't like his opinion on Steam.

Ok, will do. Thing is I just finished the game for the first time and can not imagine how anyone could hate it


its not that they hated it, its just their wasnt enough of it. you can liken it to sex (bare with me lol)

they spent ages in the foreplay stage....getting everyone supremely excited.

then they get the durex on and get to business, 2 wonderous minutes later its all over
 

KeithTalent

Elite Member | Administrator | No Lifer
Administrator
Nov 30, 2005
50,231
117
116
Originally posted by: otispunkmeyer
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Originally posted by: Smilin
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Originally posted by: lxskllr

Pt#4 This doesn't pertain to this issue, but HL2 was garbage.

Easy there fella, put down the crack pipe and step away from the computer....


Cut him some slack.

Fisher just pretty much attacked him in a personal manner several times because he didn't like his opinion on Steam.

Ok, will do. Thing is I just finished the game for the first time and can not imagine how anyone could hate it


its not that they hated it, its just their wasnt enough of it. you can liken it to sex (bare with me lol)

they spent ages in the foreplay stage....getting everyone supremely excited.

then they get the durex on and get to business, 2 wonderous minutes later its all over

Maybe that's why I'm such a hit with the ladies; apparently I love the foreplay
 

erikistired

Diamond Member
Sep 27, 2000
9,739
0
0
Originally posted by: otispunkmeyer
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Originally posted by: Smilin
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Originally posted by: lxskllr

Pt#4 This doesn't pertain to this issue, but HL2 was garbage.

Easy there fella, put down the crack pipe and step away from the computer....


Cut him some slack.

Fisher just pretty much attacked him in a personal manner several times because he didn't like his opinion on Steam.

Ok, will do. Thing is I just finished the game for the first time and can not imagine how anyone could hate it


its not that they hated it, its just their wasnt enough of it. you can liken it to sex (bare with me lol)

they spent ages in the foreplay stage....getting everyone supremely excited.

then they get the durex on and get to business, 2 wonderous minutes later its all over

i wonder how many of those people turned the difficulty down to masturbation levels.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: thescreensavers
so whats the update??? were is it

hidden amidst the flames

The OP is evidently getting his acount UNdisabled

lots of mindless Valve/Steam Worshippers here
:thumbsdown:

nothing special about HL2's engine . . . the least capable of the 'modern' engines
:Q

 

KeithTalent

Elite Member | Administrator | No Lifer
Administrator
Nov 30, 2005
50,231
117
116
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: thescreensavers
so whats the update??? were is it

hidden amidst the flames

The OP is evidently getting his acount UNdisabled

lots of mindless Valve/Steam Worshippers here
:thumbsdown:

nothing special about HL2's engine . . . the least capable of the 'modern' engines
:Q

I resemble that remark

I don't care about the engine, I just know the game as a whole blew me away. Not a lot of games are able to do that.
 

erikistired

Diamond Member
Sep 27, 2000
9,739
0
0
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: thescreensavers
so whats the update??? were is it

hidden amidst the flames

The OP is evidently getting his acount UNdisabled

lots of mindless Valve/Steam Worshippers here
:thumbsdown:

nothing special about HL2's engine . . . the least capable of the 'modern' engines
:Q

man i know what you mean, i hate it when threads about games are full of people who enjoy great games and not mindless trolls who hate on a company because it's trendy! oh wait...
 

Runes911

Golden Member
Dec 6, 2000
1,683
0
76
Originally posted by: brikis98
nothin new to report, still awaiting a response...

So why is this in you post summary:

Topic Title: Steam/Valve disabled my account
Topic Summary: Update: Valve responds
 

erikistired

Diamond Member
Sep 27, 2000
9,739
0
0
instead of editing his original post he added a small update somewhere in the thread. apparently since then there are no updates.
 

brikis98

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2005
7,253
8
0
Originally posted by: fisher
instead of editing his original post he added a small update somewhere in the thread. apparently since then there are no updates.

yup, that would be correct. for clarity, i just updated the original post too.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: thescreensavers
so whats the update??? were is it

hidden amidst the flames

The OP is evidently getting his acount UNdisabled

lots of mindless Valve/Steam Worshippers here
:thumbsdown:

nothing special about HL2's engine . . . the least capable of the 'modern' engines
:Q

I resemble that remark

I don't care about the engine, I just know the game as a whole blew me away. Not a lot of games are able to do that.


maybe i should have bolded it myself.



HL2 is a decent game and i enjoyed playing it. . . .
:thumbsup:

. . . otoh, i did not care for Ep1
:thumbsdown:

. . . and the Souce Engine is excellent for older/midrange rigs . . .
 

KeithTalent

Elite Member | Administrator | No Lifer
Administrator
Nov 30, 2005
50,231
117
116
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: thescreensavers
so whats the update??? were is it

hidden amidst the flames

The OP is evidently getting his acount UNdisabled

lots of mindless Valve/Steam Worshippers here
:thumbsdown:

nothing special about HL2's engine . . . the least capable of the 'modern' engines
:Q

I resemble that remark

I don't care about the engine, I just know the game as a whole blew me away. Not a lot of games are able to do that.


maybe i should have bolded it myself.



HL2 is a decent game and i enjoyed playing it. . . .
:thumbsup:

. . . otoh, i did not care for Ep1
:thumbsdown:

. . . and the Souce Engine is excellent for older/midrange rigs . . .


Have not tried Ep1 yet, though I have yet to hear a glowing review, so I may skip it.

I think my rig is fine and HL2 looks amazing at 1920x1200 everything totally maxed, I don't care what anyone says
 

GundamSonicZeroX

Platinum Member
Oct 6, 2005
2,100
0
0
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: thescreensavers
so whats the update??? were is it

hidden amidst the flames

The OP is evidently getting his acount UNdisabled

lots of mindless Valve/Steam Worshippers here
:thumbsdown:

nothing special about HL2's engine . . . the least capable of the 'modern' engines
:Q

I resemble that remark

I don't care about the engine, I just know the game as a whole blew me away. Not a lot of games are able to do that.


maybe i should have bolded it myself.



HL2 is a decent game and i enjoyed playing it. . . .
:thumbsup:

. . . otoh, i did not care for Ep1
:thumbsdown:

. . . and the Souce Engine is excellent for older/midrange rigs . . .


Have not tried Ep1 yet, though I have yet to hear a glowing review, so I may skip it.

I think my rig is fine and HL2 looks amazing at 1920x1200 everything totally maxed, I don't care what anyone says

Good for you. DOn't let anyone change your opinion. Myself, thinks that HL2 looks INCREDIBLE at just 1280*1024.
 

brikis98

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2005
7,253
8
0
Update: Valve has reactivated my account. In the email, the dude said

Your phone had been flagged as possibly hijacked, as a security measure your account was disabled.

I have no clue what that means exactly, but I've emailed him back in hopes of finding out...
 

brikis98

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2005
7,253
8
0
oh, also, i played the game a bit and it does look pretty damn nice on widescreen. likewise, for comparison, i loaded up oblivion, which also is very pretty on widescreen.

HL2, at least in the "sandtraps" levels (where you drive the buggy around for a while), relies VERY heavily on fog. there doesn't seem to be any real reduction of detail for objects further away - instead, they are just obscured in unrealistic fog. it doesn't look too bad - you don't notice things like that during high paced action scenes - but it's not fantastic either.

oblivion on the other hand seems to use very little or no fog whatsoever. instead, the detail on distant objects is significantly reduced and some aren't rendered at all. for the most part, this is very effective and convincing: oblivion is able to render a GIANT and beautiful outdoor environment with almost no game-stopping load times. that is, entering any building/cave requires a game-stopping load, but otherwise, you can basically run around this huge map nonstop. IMO, this is a testament to fairly EFFICIENT coding. of course, it's not perfect. on my x800 xl, for example, i turned up the eye candy but had to turn down the rendering distance, so occasionally trees/bushes will just pop up in empty space as i get closer to them. hopefully, once i upgrade to my x1900xtx, this won't be a problem

at any rate, i think oblivion and HL 2 are fairly comparable in terms of graphics - both can render indoor and outdoor environments, have good physics engines, neat special effects, etc. the Source engine has better facial animation (which doesn't play much of a role in performance) and probably a more sophisticated physics engine (which is probably handled by the CPU anyway). however, just graphics wise, oblivion seems to be coded more efficiently - no fog, far bigger (outdoor) environments with almost no game-stopping load times, tremendous render distances, etc.

is oblivion perfect? no, not even close. i'm sure if bethesda had an extra year to work on it, they could've tightened their code up even more. but that's the story of virtually every software product and sadly, no one ever has that extra year.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,749
584
126
Oblivion also requires a pretty beefy machine just to run playable at all. And if you try scaling the settings to the lower ones, you'll see what over used fog REALLY is. HL2 made it a point to cater to the lower end machines, and unfortunately that is always going to mean some things have to be left out. I personally feel HL2 strikes a great balance and met its goal of being playable on the majority of machines. However, I can understand why you feel it should have gone further. I will agree that while Oblivion is a total pig to run...I was impressed with how much it could do with the resources it had. Especially after playing Morrowind, which was poorly optimised and ran like crap on pretty much any machine out there.

I'm glad to hear you got your account back.
 
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