Steam's Early Access failures?

[Fanatical Meat]

Hmm, this might actually work, devs would have to kick back x% of the sales.
Right now, as far as I can tell the devs have no risk at all, heck, I can see more devs do EA just so they can get more cash for nothing, or marginal changes.

No it wouldn't work. Assuming you want to invest buy the companies stock if you want to play a game early buy into KS or green light.
The above activities are completely different from each other and they should not be confused.
Who would send out the tax reporting? Who would get the royalty if its a family account? How would steam know if the account holder is alive? Companies can easily manipulate net profits from sales and we're assuming they'll be public companies that are friendly to making sales numbers public.

 

[sweenish]

Buy stock from an independent developer? Not really a thing.

I'm just speaking roughly about the idea. I think there would have to be a minimum buy-in that would deter most gamers anyway, but all your questions are easily answered by a simple email with a form to fill out.

It's also worth noting that while you may treat a Steam account as a family thing, there is no such thing as a Steam family account from Valve's legal point of view.

Lastly, the two activities are not completely different. That's been the whole point of the last dozen or so posts. KS and EA are INVESTMENT platforms that put all the risk on the consumer with none of the benefits.

 

[TheSlamma]

No, it's a hope for the future to protect the customer. Just because you want to it to be something else so you can continue to pointlessly argue against it doesn't mater.

Better write your congressman, have them put aside the less important things so video game early access can get federally regulated

 

[Man I Suck]

And that's the fundamental misunderstanding of the platform.

blah blah incessant blah

I'd have no problem "investing" in more KS/EA games if Steam held the money from them until the 1.0 release date and even then gave gamers the ability to request a refund for a short period of time after release.

See, instead of you explaining something that I already know and you sticking to your assertion that I don't understand something, which is false, I'm finding solutions while you're defending snake oil salesman.

I'm talking about what should be and you're babbling on and on about the current broken system. This is where the conversation is breaking down. You keep yammering on about what is. I'm discussing what I'd like there to be.

 

[Man I Suck]

Better write your congressman, have them put aside the less important things so video game early access can get federally regulated

LOL right? :biggrin:

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

I think some folks are not discriminating between "investing" and "donating" which is what this really is. You're donating money in the hopes that a game will come out that you enjoy.

An investment is something you make expecting a return. KS/EA is not that at all. It's a donation to a group of folks so they can work on something you hope will be released and you'll like playing.

It's more akin to giving a homeless guy some change.

 

[bystander36]

I think some folks are not discriminating between "investing" and "donating" which is what this really is. You're donating money in the hopes that a game will come out that you enjoy.

An investment is something you make expecting a return. KS/EA is not that at all. It's a donation to a group of folks so they can work on something you hope will be released and you'll like playing.

It's more akin to giving a homeless guy some change.

I'm kind of debated that in my head, but you can get something out of it; a game.

I'm not sure which way is best to look at it.

 

[sweenish]

I'd have no problem "investing" in more KS/EA games if Steam held the money from them until the 1.0 release date and even then gave gamers the ability to request a refund for a short period of time after release.

See, instead of you explaining something that I already know and you sticking to your assertion that I don't understand something, which is false, I'm finding solutions while you're defending snake oil salesman.

I'm talking about what should be and you're babbling on and on about the current broken system. This is where the conversation is breaking down. You keep yammering on about what is. I'm discussing what I'd like there to be.

You're not finding solutions. You're literally suggesting the impossible and starting to sneak in insults.

None of which is changing my my stance on the fact that you don't get it.

I think some folks are not discriminating between "investing" and "donating" which is what this really is. You're donating money in the hopes that a game will come out that you enjoy.

An investment is something you make expecting a return. KS/EA is not that at all. It's a donation to a group of folks so they can work on something you hope will be released and you'll like playing.

It's more akin to giving a homeless guy some change.

This is a good post. I would much prefer it if KS and EA used this language instead.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Buy stock from an independent developer? Not really a thing.

I'm just speaking roughly about the idea. I think there would have to be a minimum buy-in that would deter most gamers anyway, but all your questions are easily answered by a simple email with a form to fill out.

It's also worth noting that while you may treat a Steam account as a family thing, there is no such thing as a Steam family account from Valve's legal point of view.

Lastly, the two activities are not completely different. That's been the whole point of the last dozen or so posts. KS and EA are INVESTMENT platforms that put all the risk on the consumer with none of the benefits.

Buying stock from a small developer is possible however it may be difficult and god knows what their value would be or how they audit but simply email them a say you like what the are doing can I buy stock? Again KS/EA are not investment platforms they are market places. You cannot retire or put a down payment down on a house or car with a games catalog you own. If you want investment in a financial sense you want an investment program.
This is not saying I agree that KS/EA on Steam don't have to perform due diligence when offering games from unknown developers and that they should attempt in their best power to shut down scammers. Especially Steam's Early Access steam is a game seller and a game developer they should have a good idea of what skills, talents and abilities of people entering early access need to complete a project and if something doesn't make sense they should audit or shut them down.

 

[Man I Suck]

You're not finding solutions. You're literally suggesting the impossible and starting to sneak in insults.

None of which is changing my my stance on the fact that you don't get it

Whether you believe it to be impossible or not is irrelevant. You hold your own opinion in too high regard. You're just mad that I don't agree with you.

 

[M0oG0oGaiPan]

i've always thought there was some risk to buying into an early access title. the reason you buy in is so you can play now (not later) and hopefully shape the way it evolves. there's always going to be risk the product doesn't get delivered or it doesn't end up being what you signed up for.

minecraft is what i think of as a big early access project. i'm pretty sure it started out as a pure sandbox game and then they tried to tack on an adventure game with an end goal by version 1.0.

 

[Stringjam]

Hmm, this might actually work, devs would have to kick back x% of the sales.

Project CARS tried exactly that on their initial funding campaign (investment return to backers based on sales).

They got into legal trouble very quickly with the idea and scrapped it.

 

[Stringjam]

I'd have no problem "investing" in more KS/EA games if Steam held the money from them until the 1.0 release date and even then gave gamers the ability to request a refund for a short period of time after release.

If Steam held their funds, how would they develop the game?

 

[sweenish]

Whether you believe it to be impossible or not is irrelevant. You hold your own opinion in too high regard. You're just mad that I don't agree with you.

It's not a belief.

Explain how Steam holding the money gets the game developed. The platform is designed in such a way to make that not possible. I do hold my opinions in high regard. At least the ones I've put some thought into. It's not a bad thing. You're not presenting anything remotely close to compelling, so why should I change my views?

Show me where I'm mad. I could show you where you resorted to personal attacks, if you'd like.

Like Bruno said, I think all confusion would be eliminated if the language on both platforms were changed to make it very clear that you are making a donation. Not a pre-order or investment, but a donation.

 

[Subyman]

The system is fine as it is right now. People need to become more aware of the risks (which are plainly stated on both Kickstarter and EA, but for some reason people still don't understand them.)

Here is what it says right at the "back this project" screen on Kickstarter:

Kickstarter does not guarantee projects or investigate a creator's ability to complete their project. It is the responsibility of the project creator to complete their project as promised, and the claims of this project are theirs alone.

No guarantee is being made by Kickstarter. Your "reward" is plainly stated when you pick a tier and it is solely up to the dev to deliver or refund. If you want more guarantees than that, then you are out of luck.

 

[Man I Suck]

If Steam held their funds, how would they develop the game?

Yeah, gosh, I just don't know how developers managed to develop any games at all before KS/EA came out. You got me there !! :awe:

 

[splat_ed]

Yeah, gosh, I just don't know how developers managed to develop any games at all before KS/EA came out. You got me there !! :awe:

Isn't the whole point of KS/EA to provide more funds for game development? Then Steam holding the funds halts development!

 

[sweenish]

Yeah, gosh, I just don't know how developers managed to develop any games at all before KS/EA came out. You got me there !! :awe:

I don't know any indies that feel comfortable getting into bed with a publisher (I wouldn't want them to, anyway), nor do I know any that are already independently wealthy enough to self-fund.

This goes back to that fundamental misunderstanding I was talking about.

 

[Stringjam]

Yeah, gosh, I just don't know how developers managed to develop any games at all before KS/EA came out. You got me there !! :awe:

By signing with a publisher (if they're willing to take it on), and in large part, giving up a lot of the creative control to the publisher.

A lot of these games also do not generate publisher or private investor interest, or the developer has a vision he doesn't want to compromise to a publisher. All valid reasons to approach crowdfunding.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Yeah, gosh, I just don't know how developers managed to develop any games at all before KS/EA came out. You got me there !! :awe:

You really don't get it. Before KS/EA came out, many of these games would not have been made.

No Wasteland 2, Shadowrun Returns, Divinity Original Sin, Grim Dawn. Poof! Gone. No one ever gets to play them.

Publishers say no to game X. Team wants to make game X anyway. They run a Kickstarter to get the money they need to make the game. They spend that money making the game. These are adults not living in basements so they need money for food, rent or mortgages, etc. Hopefully the money lasts long enough for them to finish.

Even studios like InXile and Obsidian could not get funding from publishers for their RPGs. Publishers did not see enough dollar signs to say yes. People like me who liked Wasteland 1 and Black Isle games opened our wallets and donated money to pay their salaries while they worked. We eventually got games out of it.

 

[Man I Suck]

I don't know any indies that feel comfortable getting into bed with a publisher (I wouldn't want them to, anyway), nor do I know any that are already independently wealthy enough to self-fund.

This goes back to that fundamental misunderstanding I was talking about.

Yeah, indie games never existed before KS/EA.

 

[Man I Suck]

You really don't get it. Before KS/EA came out, many of these games would not have been made.

No Wasteland 2, Shadowrun Returns, Divinity Original Sin, Grim Dawn. Poof! Gone. No one ever gets to play them.

Publishers say no to game X. Team wants to make game X anyway. They run a Kickstarter to get the money they need to make the game. They spend that money making the game. These are adults not living in basements so they need money for food, rent or mortgages, etc. Hopefully the money lasts long enough for them to finish.

Even studios like InXile and Obsidian could not get funding from publishers for their RPGs. Publishers did not see enough dollar signs to say yes. People like me who liked Wasteland 1 and Black Isle games opened our wallets and donated money to pay their salaries while they worked. We eventually got games out of it.

I understand. You can stop saying the same thing over and over and over. I get it. I simply don't care. I won't be satisfied until the existing KS/EA environment comes with some sort of guarantee -whether it's a completed game within 12 months or my money back.

Now you may resume telling me all about how I don't understand.

 

[Stringjam]

I understand. You can stop saying the same thing over and over and over. I get it. I simply don't care. I won't be satisfied until the existing KS/EA environment comes with some sort of guarantee -whether it's a completed game within 12 months or my money back.

Now you may resume telling me all about how I don't understand.

12 months for development? And who do you think should be liable to give you your money back, considering it has already been spent on development?

You not only don't understand business financing, you don't understand game development.

So no...you won't be satisfied.

You've presented no evidence to support your position, which begins and ends with "I want," without providing any reality-based solution to what you perceive to be the problem.

You should look deeper into the issue if you want to present a decent argument.

 

[bystander36]

I understand. You can stop saying the same thing over and over and over. I get it. I simply don't care. I won't be satisfied until the existing KS/EA environment comes with some sort of guarantee -whether it's a completed game within 12 months or my money back.

Now you may resume telling me all about how I don't understand.

You don't, seriously. The whole entire point of KS and EA is for developers who lack funding to gain funding. You can't guarantee a game in this environment. It is in the writing.

What you want exists. It is the normal Steam and Pre-Order system. Those are guaranteed. KS and EA are by their very nature, not guaranteed. If you can't comprehend that, you should just avoid them.

 

[cmdrdredd]

You don't, seriously. The whole entire point of KS and EA is for developers who lack funding to gain funding. You can't guarantee a game in this environment. It is in the writing.

What you want exists. It is the normal Steam and Pre-Order system. Those are guaranteed. KS and EA are by their very nature, not guaranteed. If you can't comprehend that, you should just avoid them.

It's also a platform for a developer with a vision to present it to the fans in hopes they can gain the necessary funding to create that vision. They might want to work on something they are really passionate about but are tied down by a publisher. In some cases the developer splits, creates a small studio, and seeks the means to make their vision a reality. If people like what is being presented they can show their support with a pledge and should the game release they get some bonus materials(maybe betas, soundtracks, special packaging for the game, collectors items) and a copy of the game depending on how much they pledge to the campaign.