Steroids, Tren, Clen, HGH, and Dren. Can you get shredded w/out the drugs?

[Mai72]

Zyzz was an internet celebrity bodybuilder who was pretty famous up until his death in 2011. He had a heart attack in a sauna in Bangkok, Thailand (2011). He was only 22 years old. It was well known that he was on a bunch of gear, including coke and other recreational drugs.

So, my question is can most people get as ripped as Zyzz without resorting to drug use? Can you really do it with a proper diet, preworkout drinks, protein shakes and hard workouts. My gut tells me no. But, I'm sure there are plenty of naturals who would say otherwise.

 

[Davidpaul007]

Yes, you can be that ripped without steroids etc, but it requires alot of discipline and time. Couple of pics I've snapped, not necessarily ideal lighting which can make a big difference. I consider myself average genetics. First pic was me just walking in from work, took off my shirt and made a face

2nd pic collage was post workout and I was into my bulk a bit.

 

[Mai72]

Damn man. You look great.

How long have you been lifting?

 

[JBT]

It think its not too difficult to get ripped and be normal sized. Its where you are ripped with muscles bulging everywhere that it gets to be not possible. Sure genetics are helpful and there will be people who can do it but the larger you are with lower bf% is where drugs start to be required.

 

[Zivic]

Zyzz was an internet celebrity bodybuilder who was pretty famous up until his death in 2011. He had a heart attack in a sauna in Bangkok, Thailand (2011). He was only 22 years old. It was well known that he was on a bunch of gear, including coke and other recreational drugs.

So, my question is can most people get as ripped as Zyzz without resorting to drug use? Can you really do it with a proper diet, preworkout drinks, protein shakes and hard workouts. My gut tells me no. But, I'm sure there are plenty of naturals who would say otherwise.

you can, but it won't be easy and could have detrimental affects on your hormone levels.

getting too lean may keep your wiener from working, and actually might kill your test levels and prematurely put you on TRT

 

[bradley]

Yes you can get a ffmi well above 25 without drugs.

Getting lean is about diet, supplementation and nutrition. Getting aesthetic is about understanding your own body, kinesology and how to fully isolate muscle groups.

For instance, the shoulder joint is a very complex structure. Many lifters never learn how to fully retract, depress and stabilize their scapula during pushing/pulling movements and have trouble making significant gains etc.

 

[z1ggy]

The answer is yes.

Just look at Zivic, Koing & DP007.

Difference is, with gear you could achieve a great body in months, as opposed to being natty and it taking years. Personally, unless you plan to make a living off your body, taking gear isn't worth the side effects you could potentially have, and the long term effects.

 

[Davidpaul007]

Damn man. You look great.

How long have you been lifting?

Thanks, appreciate the kind words. Lifting regularly since 1999 with a couple year break here and there. However, was a fat lifter (that just looked stocky) until 2015 when I finally got my nutrition in order.

Since Jan 2015, I've trained 3xs a week focusing on primary lifts - squat, deadlift, pressing, pullups/chinups. I'm not big, only 5'6" on a good day and curently weigh about 157, gaining about 2lbs/month during my bulk phase.

 

[Davidpaul007]

Yes you can get a ffmi well above 25 without drugs.

Getting lean is about diet, supplementation and nutrition. Getting aesthetic is about understanding your own body, kinesology and how to fully isolate muscle groups.

For instance, the shoulder joint is a very complex structure. Many lifters never learn how to fully retract, depress and stabilize their scapula during pushing/pulling movements and have trouble making significant gains etc.

I disagree with most of this. A ffmi above 25, naturally, is not normal and possible only by those with good genetics and alot of consistency.

Being aesthetic is mostly about having muscle and being lean. By and large, you will develop how you are genetically predisposed with perhaps only a mild ability to influence overall proportions (speaking of natural lifters). I have a wide back and narrow waste. Nothing I've done did this (other than building muscle and losing the chubb).

 

[gradoman]

-- snip --

Can you really do it with a proper diet, preworkout drinks, protein shakes and hard workouts. My gut tells me no. But, I'm sure there are plenty of naturals who would say otherwise.

If theses guys back in the late 1800s, early 1900s did it w/out all the crap we rely on today, why can't we do it? (includes pics)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2y1K5KjWcw

 

[bradley]

I disagree with most of this. A ffmi above 25, naturally, is not normal and possible only by those with good genetics and alot of consistency.

Being aesthetic is mostly about having muscle and being lean. By and large, you will develop how you are genetically predisposed with perhaps only a mild ability to influence overall proportions (speaking of natural lifters). I have a wide back and narrow waste. Nothing I've done did this (other than building muscle and losing the chubb).

You have to eat big to get big. To get shredded you also need the correct macros and a lifestyle change. Your aesthetics are influenced primarily by muscle tie-ins and proper posture in proportion to individual muscle groups. Pure aesthetics are obviously difficult above 30ffmi... our bones weren't designed to effectively accommodate such musculature.

Naturally achieving 27-28ffmi is possible with good genetics, extremely hard work and supreme knowledge of science, mechanics and nutrition. Like Ziggy above me said, it just takes longer through the natural route. Though you can definitely raise endogenous HGH and testosterone levels and decrease recovery time without drugs. There are even ways to buffer lactic acid during workouts. And there are more scientists than ever studying muscle activation.

As bodybuilders our main goal will always be to make that lift as progressively inefficient as possible. Instead many condition their muscles to accept the least path of resistance. These are the first people to cry steroids upon seeing someone bigger than them or they make all sorts of excuses.

Instead they should be vigorously pulling the bar apart on pulling movements for starters. So simple and yet I've had seasoned lifters tell me it was the first time truly feeling their back. Why? Because it was the first time they truly depressed their scapula or their very foundation.

Many bodybuilders never even perform lifts in a muscle's most shortened position and therefore never fully activate those specific muscles. Or they always perform lifts where they are strongest instead of improving their weakest link. Or they waste much of their time with stomach crunches instead of stomach vacuums. etc etc. The list is fairly long.

 

[Zivic]

Yes you can get a ffmi well above 25 without drugs.

Getting lean is about diet, supplementation and nutrition. Getting aesthetic is about understanding your own body, kinesology and how to fully isolate muscle groups.

For instance, the shoulder joint is a very complex structure. Many lifters never learn how to fully retract, depress and stabilize their scapula during pushing/pulling movements and have trouble making significant gains etc.

I have had a FFMI of 27+... I'm not on gear

if you are above 10% bodyfat the FFMI is a complete waste IMHO. it is really designed for people in near show ready condition, meaning at least sub 10% bodyfat and probably most accurate at sub 8%.... most people would be shocked at how lean a true sub 10% is.

just because I can pull a 27+ ffmi at 13-14% bodyfat doesn't mean I would even be above 25 if I dropped sub 10%?

leanest I have been in the last couple years was 192 lbs. I was probably close to 10%; putting me at a 26... is that "well above" a 25? I didn't feel well being that lean and didn't feel like I looked all that good either.... again, we are all different.

I look around the gym and, not to sound arrogant, the guys that look comparable to me are on gear. I've discussed it with them. I am no where near satisfied with how I look, but if I am being honest only a very small percent of people naturally will achieve the mass I have. I'm not the best, and there are, in raw numbers, a lot of people that are bigger, leaner and more aesthetic than I am. But If we are discussing the population in general, I am easily a 1%'er.

is a 25+ achievable naturally? of course it is.... is it very likely? NO

 

[Zivic]

If theses guys back in the late 1800s, early 1900s did it w/out all the crap we rely on today, why can't we do it? (includes pics)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2y1K5KjWcw

I remember that video... who's that Azivman03 with that comment about how it relates to bodyfat? He looks huge

there are always genetic elites. you are seeing a handful of people and generalizing that to everyone. again, sure it's "possible", but not very likely

 

[Zivic]

Thanks, appreciate the kind words. Lifting regularly since 1999 with a couple year break here and there. However, was a fat lifter (that just looked stocky) until 2015 when I finally got my nutrition in order.

Since Jan 2015, I've trained 3xs a week focusing on primary lifts - squat, deadlift, pressing, pullups/chinups. I'm not big, only 5'6" on a good day and curently weigh about 157, gaining about 2lbs/month during my bulk phase.

5"6" @ 157 with 8% is ~23 ffmi

I think the thing to take away from all of this is, these are all just numbers. Numbers don't give the full picture. How you look and feel are much more important than your weight or number on FFMI

 

[Ackmed]

So, my question is can most people get as ripped as Zyzz without resorting to drug use? Can you really do it with a proper diet, preworkout drinks, protein shakes and hard workouts. My gut tells me no. But, I'm sure there are plenty of naturals who would say otherwise.

As ripped? I don't know, probably very hard. Although I am sure it depends largely on how lucky people are in their DNA lottery. I am 41 and eat pretty shitty honestly, and drink a lot. But I also hit the gym pretty decent about 4 times a week. I am extremely veiny, and have been accused of doing steroids often. I couldn't do them even if I wanted to, get tested all the time, I work for the government. I am just very lucky and this I know. Take yesterday for an example, had the Homewrecker from Moe's for lunch with chips and salsa. For dinner ate on the run because we were going to Kwanzaa at our school and had Arby's. Two roast beef sammiches and an Egg Nog milk shake. Mostly because I love them, partly because my wife hates them.. hah. I probably eat fast food 5-6 times a week, about once a day.

That pic is from Summer time, a snap I sent to my wife. I don't make it a habit of taking selfies and I don't have a newer one.

I am about 10lbs heavier now since that pick, all muscle. 6' even (actually about 5'11.5" now since compression of vertebrae) and 220lbs. I was 210lbs in that pick. I lost 10lbs of muscle on a cruise and trip to FL earlier this year. Did not work out for about 2 weeks, and drank in excess every day (15 drink a day package), laying out in the sun. Just now getting it back.

I take a multi vitamin, usually the Animal pack, but change it up because I feel like taking the same thing over time loses it's ability to work. No idea really if that is true or not. I take a preworkout and post workout shake. Both change about every month or so. Whatever is on sale when I am looking. I use whole milk always.

I do the same thing all the time. Back/bi's, chest/tri's, and shoulders/abs, then start over again. I rarely do cardio, only when work makes me. I do hike a lot though and like to be outside.

I sometimes want to watch what I eat more and stop drinking just to see what my body can do, but I just enjoy food and liquor too much. I don't want to work that hard at it either, or weigh my food, prep or any of that other nonsense. I certainly don't want to dehydrate myself just to take a picture. It helps that my wife goes to the gym with me, otherwise I wouldn't go as much.

 

[Zivic]

Drug test is nothing more than an IQ test.

Good build.

 

[Ackmed]

I've never done any illegal drugs. Never even smoked anything, cigarette, cigar, weed, nothing. No tobacco of any form. I do have a vice though, I drink. Probably a 5th or more each week. I recently found out how much that affects working out, but whatever.

Edit.. I've thought about getting legal HGH though. I hear advertising for it all the time, or low T. Wife said they'd laugh at me and not give me any though. Still may try.

 

[Zivic]

I've never done any illegal drugs. Never even smoked anything, cigarette, cigar, weed, nothing. No tobacco of any form. I do have a vice though, I drink. Probably a 5th or more each week. I recently found out how much that affects working out, but whatever.

Edit.. I've thought about getting legal HGH though. I hear advertising for it all the time, or low T. Wife said they'd laugh at me and not give me any though. Still may try.

you can get TRT (testosterone) through your endocrinologist for low "T"... this really isn't HGH.

I'm not accusing you. I personally don't think you have a build that would indicate drugs IMHO. You lack the thickness, shoulder capping and overall hardness that would indicate drugs. that said considering your age and drinking, you have upper level genetics.

it's my thickness that makes me get the drug label. here are pics at various bodyweights:
Ideally, I would like to be 205-ish @ about 12%. I vary from low 200's to about 210-212 on the high side... and I am a very lofty 5'8" tall

 

[Ackmed]

you can get TRT (testosterone) through your endocrinologist for low "T"... this really isn't HGH.

I'm not accusing you. I personally don't think you have a build that would indicate drugs IMHO. You lack the thickness, shoulder capping and overall hardness that would indicate drugs. that said considering your age and drinking, you have upper level genetics.

I don't even know what kind of doc that is. I never get sick and actually don't even have a personal physician. I have to go through a yearly physical just because my job makes me. I don't know what shoulder capping is either, heh. People have just said it before because of like you said, my age, diet, and lack of fat. That and I am really veiny when I get hot. Especially when working out. I very rarely even do abs, its more about fat % than working them.

Yeah I am not huge, honestly I don't want to be. I like where I am, just want to be fit and strong. I have to run for work, which I detest. We do a lot of physical tests that are more than just lifting heavy things. I do not want legs anywhere the size yours is, no offense. Different strokes for different folks. I do legs but not with heavy weight, just to stay strong. My jeans got too tight on the thigh and loose on the waist. Looked like I was wearing fucking skinny jeans, so I backed off. I do them mainly because my wife does, get her ass poppin'. But she also has a genetic advantage in that department. I know I am very lucky to be pretty lean at my age and what I eat. My kids are the same, my oldest is 5'10" and 115, you can see her abs. All three kids are built a lot like me luckily.

 

[bradley]

TRT is never optimal for normal healthy males. Your testicles eventually atrophy due to leydig cell hypoplasia, spermagenesis drastically declines and testosterone production completely ceases. For the rest of your life you now remain dependent on TRT and HCG for functionality. Any doctor who says otherwise [or steers patients away from natural alternatives] is to be avoided.

As for the main topic, Aziz Shavershian just before his death was around a 26-27 FFMI. I definitely believe the knowledge exists to achieve his look without drugs. As a bodybuilder, this often means 100% activation of the target muscle with constant tension. Easier said than done.

http://outalpha.com/how-to-look-like-zyzz-without-drugs-acquire-aesthetics/

I would rather see lifters striving for aesthetics, fully developed lean muscle tissue. You don't want to be the guy at the gym with a massive chest and no back, strong upper body but no legs, strong quads yet no hamstrings and calves etc. Placing mass above all these things is an invitation to injury. Once you develop the foundation then form follows function and you can work toward your ideal mass.

 

[Zivic]

TRT is never optimal for normal healthy males. Your testicles eventually atrophy due to leydig cell hypoplasia, spermagenesis drastically declines and testosterone production completely ceases. For the rest of your life you now remain dependent on TRT and HCG for functionality. Any doctor who says otherwise [or steers patients away from natural alternatives] is to be avoided.

As for the main topic, Aziz Shavershian just before his death was around a 26-27 FFMI. I definitely believe the knowledge exists to achieve his look without drugs. As a bodybuilder, this often means 100% activation of the target muscle with constant tension. Easier said than done.

http://outalpha.com/how-to-look-like-zyzz-without-drugs-acquire-aesthetics/

I would rather see lifters striving for aesthetics, fully developed lean muscle tissue. You don't want to be the guy at the gym with a massive chest and no back, strong upper body but no legs, strong quads yet no hamstrings and calves etc. Placing mass above all these things is an invitation to injury. Once you develop the foundation then form follows function and you can work toward your ideal mass.

26-27? That's hard to believe based on the pictures I have seen. I have seen numbers from 6' to 6'2" and 180 all the way to 227. I can't comment on the height, but I wouldn't put him over 200 lbs..... I'm no expert and probably have seen no more than a handful of pics.

yes, if you go on TRT, you are likely on for life. That said I know people that have been on for a year or so and have come off because they don't like to pin weekly or bi weekly. I guess my thought is, if your test is already low and TRT works like I would expect it does, a weekly injection would be worth it...

the same can be said for steroid use in general. If you plan on using steroids, you better be prepared to use for the rest of your life

 

[edro]

Many bodybuilders never even perform lifts in a muscle's most shortened position and therefore never fully activate those specific muscles. Or they always perform lifts where they are strongest instead of improving their weakest link. Or they waste much of their time with stomach crunches instead of stomach vacuums. etc etc.

Keep going!
I have never heard of stomach vacuums... but am going to work on them now.
The Arnold stomach looks much better than the Ronnie stomach.

What do you mean by "never even perform lifts in a muscle's most shortened position"?
You mean do more lifts with it in the almost to fully contracted position?

 

[Nebor]

As ripped? I don't know, probably very hard. Although I am sure it depends largely on how lucky people are in their DNA lottery. I am 41 and eat pretty shitty honestly, and drink a lot. But I also hit the gym pretty decent about 4 times a week. I am extremely veiny, and have been accused of doing steroids often. I couldn't do them even if I wanted to, get tested all the time, I work for the government. I am just very lucky and this I know. Take yesterday for an example, had the Homewrecker from Moe's for lunch with chips and salsa. For dinner ate on the run because we were going to Kwanzaa at our school and had Arby's. Two roast beef sammiches and an Egg Nog milk shake. Mostly because I love them, partly because my wife hates them.. hah. I probably eat fast food 5-6 times a week, about once a day.

The standard urinalysis doesn't screen for steroids. It's impractical to do so because of the expense.

 

[Nebor]

It's definitely possible. It just takes years. You can lift natty and eat clean for 5 years to achieve the same results as a couple cycles of gear. The biggest downside is that many of the supporting structures (tendons & joints) can't keep up with the rapid increase in muscle\strength so it's easy to get injured.

 

[edro]

That pic is from Summer time, a snap I sent to my wife. I don't make it a habit of taking selfies and I don't have a newer one.

I am about 10lbs heavier now since that pick, all muscle. 6' even (actually about 5'11.5" now since compression of vertebrae) and 220lbs. I was 210lbs in that pick. I lost 10lbs of muscle on a cruise and trip to FL earlier this year. Did not work out for about 2 weeks, and drank in excess every day (15 drink a day package), laying out in the sun. Just now getting it back.

I take a multi vitamin, usually the Animal pack, but change it up because I feel like taking the same thing over time loses it's ability to work. No idea really if that is true or not. I take a preworkout and post workout shake. Both change about every month or so. Whatever is on sale when I am looking. I use whole milk always.

I do the same thing all the time. Back/bi's, chest/tri's, and shoulders/abs, then start over again. I rarely do cardio, only when work makes me. I do hike a lot though and like to be outside.

I sometimes want to watch what I eat more and stop drinking just to see what my body can do, but I just enjoy food and liquor too much. I don't want to work that hard at it either, or weigh my food, prep or any of that other nonsense. I certainly don't want to dehydrate myself just to take a picture. It helps that my wife goes to the gym with me, otherwise I wouldn't go as much.

Holy hell you hit the genetics lottery.

I have to watch my diet very closely (log it every day).
I know exactly what a certain meal will do to my weight.
1 bad fast food meal is a guaranteed 1-1.5 pound adder (of fat, water weight, whatever it is).
I have to stay around 1800cal/day to stay where I'm at.