Steve Nash vs John Stockton

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: torpid
Stockton stepped his game up in the playoffs even more than nash did. Nash is a better scorer and ball handler. And passer probably too. It's just that much more impressive what stockton did in the playoffs when you consider that he wasn't a GREAT scorer. But he always had that dagger-in-the-heart shot late in playoff games. Chauncey Billups does that a lot too, making a shot to kill all hope and make you want to commit suicide as an opponent.

Nash doesn't quite have that yet.

Show me some samples of evidence to where Stockton was way over his season average and stepped his game up in the playoffs? Last second shots are a whole other thing, and IIRC Stockton didn't have many of those. What games did Stockton win late? I'll have to research that b/c none are coming off the top of my head.

Nash basically single handedly beat the Mavs last year (3 games over 40 and 30 pts), and won game 1 vs LAL this year all the while holding comparable stats to Kobe in every game (minus Game 7 when he was injured). If that's not stepping up, I don't know what is.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Electric Amish

Originally posted by: torpid
Stockton stepped his game up in the playoffs even more than nash did. Nash is a better scorer and ball handler. And passer probably too. It's just that much more impressive what stockton did in the playoffs when you consider that he wasn't a GREAT scorer. But he always had that dagger-in-the-heart shot late in playoff games. Chauncey Billups does that a lot too, making a shot to kill all hope and make you want to commit suicide as an opponent.

Nash doesn't quite have that yet.

How can you say the career assist leader wasn't a very good ball handler?

Stockton was great. However Nash can dribble through/run circles around a defense, which Stockton couldn't do. Nash can score off the dribble much better than Stockton ever could.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Show me some samples of evidence to where Stockton was way over his season average and stepped his game up in the playoffs? Last second shots are a whole other thing, and IIRC Stockton didn't have many of those. What games did Stockton win late? I'll have to research that b/c none are coming off the top of my head.

Nash basically single handedly beat the Mavs last year (3 games over 40 and 30 pts), and won game 1 vs LAL this year all the while holding comparable stats to Kobe in every game (minus Game 7 when he was injured). If that's not stepping up, I don't know what is.

It wasn't really about stats. Both of them had similar numbers in the playoffs versus regular season throughout their career.

In the playoffs it's hard to compare to the regular season because of the increased intensity and preperation / coaching involved. Stockton just played an even more solid game in the playoffs. Then there are the reverse, guys like Carmelo Anthony and Cliff Robinson who just don't seem to have that next gear for the playoffs.

Those dagger in the heart shots are not last second of the game shots. Although stockton did have some of those. It's more about preventing your opponents from coming back by making a tough shot. Or by making a shot look easy when the shot clock is low and your whole play has been mucked up. It's not easy to do.

Nash also fumbled a few key plays. But anyway the point was more that nash steps his play up, and stockton even more. I value those clutch late shots quite a bit, though. A lot of players will miss most of those.

 

[TheGenius]

Stats:

Over 10 years...

Steve Nash: 9.9k pts | 5k assists | 569 steals
John Stockton: 10k pts | 9.3k assists | 2k(?) steals

I'd go with Stockton.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Show me some samples of evidence to where Stockton was way over his season average and stepped his game up in the playoffs? Last second shots are a whole other thing, and IIRC Stockton didn't have many of those. What games did Stockton win late? I'll have to research that b/c none are coming off the top of my head.

Nash basically single handedly beat the Mavs last year (3 games over 40 and 30 pts), and won game 1 vs LAL this year all the while holding comparable stats to Kobe in every game (minus Game 7 when he was injured). If that's not stepping up, I don't know what is.

It wasn't really about stats. Both of them had similar numbers in the playoffs versus regular season throughout their career.

In the playoffs it's hard to compare to the regular season because of the increased intensity and preperation / coaching involved. Stockton just played an even more solid game in the playoffs. Then there are the reverse, guys like Carmelo Anthony and Cliff Robinson who just don't seem to have that next gear for the playoffs.

Those dagger in the heart shots are not last second of the game shots. Although stockton did have some of those. It's more about preventing your opponents from coming back by making a tough shot. Or by making a shot look easy when the shot clock is low and your whole play has been mucked up. It's not easy to do.

Nash also fumbled a few key plays. But anyway the point was more that nash steps his play up, and stockton even more. I value those clutch late shots quite a bit, though. A lot of players will miss most of those.

Yeah I'll buy that Stockton did the intangibles. I'm not really seeing it in his stats, but I don't doubt it. Nash did fumble some key plays and miss some shots, but for the most part he has elevated his play often into a hybrid SG/PG vice just passing as a regular PG. It's weird but his scoring goes way up in the playoffs while maintaining season average assists.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Yeah I'll buy that Stockton did the intangibles. I'm not really seeing it in his stats, but I don't doubt it. Nash did fumble some key plays and miss some shots, but for the most part he has elevated his play often into a hybrid SG/PG vice just passing as a regular PG. It's weird but his scoring goes way up in the playoffs while maintaining season average assists.

Also worth noting is that I only got to see stockton later in his career when he'd made the playoffs for at least 10 years. Maybe nash will have those intangibles and rock solid reliability a few years from now. That is really the big difference now between a guy like nash and a guy like stockton... the consistency over such a long time. I'm worried about nash's long term viability, though. Seems to get injured a lot.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: TheGenius
Stats:

Over 10 years...

Steve Nash: 9.9k pts | 5k assists | 569 steals
John Stockton: 10k pts | 9.3k assists | 2k(?) steals

I'd go with Stockton.

Are you comparing apples to apples? Not IMO:

Minutes Played:
Stockton - 26,148
Nash - 21,071

Difference - 5,077 minutes in the first 10 seasons.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Yeah I'll buy that Stockton did the intangibles. I'm not really seeing it in his stats, but I don't doubt it. Nash did fumble some key plays and miss some shots, but for the most part he has elevated his play often into a hybrid SG/PG vice just passing as a regular PG. It's weird but his scoring goes way up in the playoffs while maintaining season average assists.

Also worth noting is that I only got to see stockton later in his career when he'd made the playoffs for at least 10 years. Maybe nash will have those intangibles and rock solid reliability a few years from now. That is really the big difference now between a guy like nash and a guy like stockton... the consistency over such a long time. I'm worried about nash's long term viability, though. Seems to get injured a lot.

Playing run and gun will take its toll eventually, Nash probably has 3-5 good years left... We'll see how the Suns respond to the Clips. I'm predicting Clips in 5 but you never know this year...

 

[torpid]

I think nash just needs to do more strength training. Sometimes that can really help players get over the injury hump. It's possible he will be like AI too... perpetually injured and still playing well.

 

[fredhe12]

Magic Johnson.

 

[z42]

It's hard for me to imagine anyone comparing Steve Nash to John Stockton. Nash has been playing great ball for the past few years, but Stockton was the best pure point guard in the leage for almost 15 years. If Nash can keep up this level of play for another 5-7 years then the comparison works, but that is a big if.

On the other hand, Nash dated Liz Hurley for a while and I have to give him props for that!

 

[montanafan]

John Stockton!

 

[AntMan530]

Originally posted by: z42
It's hard for me to imagine anyone comparing Steve Nash to John Stockton. Nash has been playing great ball for the past few years, but Stockton was the best pure point guard in the leage for almost 15 years. If Nash can keep up this level of play for another 5-7 years then the comparison works, but that is a big if.

On the other hand, Nash dated Liz Hurley for a while and I have to give him props for that!

John Stockton has been married to the same women for over 15 years. I give him props for that!!!