Stimulus deal struck - reports

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: senseamp
I thought you were defending Bamacre's contention that having a social contract (health care) is somehow counter to having freedom. I think it's completely laughable. Being tied to your job in order to keep your health coverage is not freedom. It's servitude. I've heard people say many times that they would go out and start a business, but they are staying in their current jobs because they can't afford to lose their coverage due to preexisting conditions. It's killing the entrepreneurial spirit of a lot of people who could be contributing more to society if they didn't depend on their job for their medical care.

No, I was replying to your statement:
"Your definition of "freedom" is different from mine. I don't consider inability to afford to see a doctor "freedom." "

There are other ways to solve that problem besides UHC. My employer doesn't pay for my auto insurance. Why does my employer pay for my health insurance? Why does yours? Answer that and you might understand better what's really wrong with our healthcare system...

I don't think the employer should pay for health care. I think healthcare should be independent of a job.
And I think a lot of employers are starting to ditch it, and that is a good thing, it should be government responsibility, not theirs.

 

[Thump553]

Vic-you obviously don't pay for your own health insurance, and obviously have never tried to get it on your own. Unless you get crappy coverage (which is a lot easier to do in health insurance than auto insurance-they don't deny your auto coverage because of a preexisting condition, etc) it is extremely difficult and very expensive to get health ins. on your own.

My wife and I are self-employed, excellent health and we pay through the nose for health coverage. The only bill higher is the mortgage.

I read recently that only about 5% of Americans actually buy their own health coverage. It's humorous that all these flag-waving "free enterprise" types are doing so much to help support our current insurance bureaucracy.

 

[senseamp]

The whole idea of free market system in healthcare is just laughable. For one you are operating under physical duress, and secondly you have no information about the price to make a decision on until after the procedure is already done and you get billed, plus you have no medical skills to evaluate the consequences of various decisions in front of you, that's even if you have any options anyways. It's simply not the environment for a free market to work, which is why what we are seeing in healthcare now is a complete and total market failure where we spend twice as much to get worse outcomes.

 

[Capitalizt]

just heard on the news that we wont be seeing any checks till MAY this year. The recession will probably be over by then.

Gotta love the efficiency of government.

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: Capitalizt
just heard on the news that we wont be seeing any checks till MAY this year. The recession will probably be over by then.

Gotta love the efficiency of government.

Actually, I think that a four month turnaround in getting 150 billion dollars distributed is pretty good, especially considering the specifics have just NOW been worked out.

 

[TheSlamma]

Originally posted by: Thump553
Vic-you obviously don't pay for your own health insurance, and obviously have never tried to get it on your own. Unless you get crappy coverage (which is a lot easier to do in health insurance than auto insurance-they don't deny your auto coverage because of a preexisting condition, etc) it is extremely difficult and very expensive to get health ins. on your own.

My wife and I are self-employed, excellent health and we pay through the nose for health coverage. The only bill higher is the mortgage.

I read recently that only about 5% of Americans actually buy their own health coverage. It's humorous that all these flag-waving "free enterprise" types are doing so much to help support our current insurance bureaucracy.

How much of a bite out of your ass do you think the government is going to take in order to be able to support health in this country?

Insurance is expensive because medial care and drugs are expensive, what is all of a sudden supposed to happen? the government steps in and says okay Doc now instead of making $300,000 a year it's going to be $120,000 for you.

 

[TheSlamma]

Originally posted by: Capitalizt
just heard on the news that we wont be seeing any checks till MAY this year. The recession will probably be over by then.

Gotta love the efficiency of government.

LOL, recession over in 4 month's. Guess you were not around for the 70's and 80's.

 

[Jhhnn]

From Bamacre-

That's pretty much the difference, isn't it? You see taxes as too low. I see spending as too high. And yet, most Americans are taxed at roughly 50% of their incomes, through various means of taxation. How much more should be pay? 75%? Should we just be slaves?

Hogwash. Total taxation across all economic strata is a lot lower than that-

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/fsl2004.pdf

But please, don't let facts interfere with you opinionated ranting...

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: senseamp
The whole idea of free market system in healthcare is just laughable. For one you are operating under physical duress, and secondly you have no information about the price to make a decision on until after the procedure is already done and you get billed, plus you have no medical skills to evaluate the consequences of various decisions in front of you, that's even if you have any options anyways. It's simply not the environment for a free market to work, which is why what we are seeing in healthcare now is a complete and total market failure where we spend twice as much to get worse outcomes.

Worst outcomes?? You need a new doctor.
My family has had the best of luck with medical treatment.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
From Bamacre-

That's pretty much the difference, isn't it? You see taxes as too low. I see spending as too high. And yet, most Americans are taxed at roughly 50% of their incomes, through various means of taxation. How much more should be pay? 75%? Should we just be slaves?

Hogwash. Total taxation across all economic strata is a lot lower than that-

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/fsl2004.pdf

But please, don't let facts interfere with you opinionated ranting...

I bolded the part of Bamacres statement that you must have missed. He was referring to ALL forms of taxation, not just what comes out of your paycheck.

 

[TheSlamma]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
From Bamacre-

That's pretty much the difference, isn't it? You see taxes as too low. I see spending as too high. And yet, most Americans are taxed at roughly 50% of their incomes, through various means of taxation. How much more should be pay? 75%? Should we just be slaves?

Hogwash. Total taxation across all economic strata is a lot lower than that-

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/fsl2004.pdf

But please, don't let facts interfere with you opinionated ranting...

He said "Through various means of taxation.. that means when you get your check the income tax is 30%~... then you go buy something and pay sales tax on that.. there is more %% added, then you buy gas and it's really got a good % of tax on it.. then you pay property tax.. then you got the DemoCrooks wanting inheritance tax.. look at your utility bill and your cell phone bill.. taxed taxed taxed.

By the time it's all done I don't know that it's 50% but it's far more then just Income tax.

 

[JD50]

Wow, so in one thread Senseamp is complaining about not getting a tax "rebate" and then complaining about the tax rates being too low. What a joke.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Thump553
Vic-you obviously don't pay for your own health insurance, and obviously have never tried to get it on your own. Unless you get crappy coverage (which is a lot easier to do in health insurance than auto insurance-they don't deny your auto coverage because of a preexisting condition, etc) it is extremely difficult and very expensive to get health ins. on your own.

My wife and I are self-employed, excellent health and we pay through the nose for health coverage. The only bill higher is the mortgage.

I read recently that only about 5% of Americans actually buy their own health coverage. It's humorous that all these flag-waving "free enterprise" types are doing so much to help support our current insurance bureaucracy.

Uhh... actually I switched employers this past November, and am paying the health insurance for my wife and I out-of-pocket until the usual 90 day period passes for my new employer to start paying. $544/mo. BTW with an outrageous prescription deductible and no dental (let's not get into that aspect, sore subject but I can't say anything bad about my previous employer per the terms of the severance package much as I might like to).
My wife owns her own business which is why I pay for both. I have been self-employed myself more than once in the past, so I've footed this bill many times. The difference between you and I in this regard, I guess, is that when my employer is paying for it, I don't fool myself into believing that my employer is actually paying for it. In the same way I don't think my employer pays my income taxes either...

Anyway, thanks for the completely wrong ASSumptions, about both me and my opinions about our current health care system. I can always tell when I'm talking to a complete idiot on this subject, because they frame it into this perfect little false dilemma of the only 2 choices being their agenda and the current system.

Oh, and BTW, people do get turned down for auto insurance all the time... they pull driving record yaknow...

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: senseamp
The whole idea of free market system in healthcare is just laughable. For one you are operating under physical duress, and secondly you have no information about the price to make a decision on until after the procedure is already done and you get billed, plus you have no medical skills to evaluate the consequences of various decisions in front of you, that's even if you have any options anyways. It's simply not the environment for a free market to work, which is why what we are seeing in healthcare now is a complete and total market failure where we spend twice as much to get worse outcomes.

I think I'm going to need to get a second opinion on this.

Our current system is NOT a free market. That assertion of yours is what is laughable. It used to be, and it worked then. It is not one now. Pointing at our current system and its flaws and calling that a failure of a "free market" is intellectual dishonesty at best. I can't even shop for insurance providers, much less doctors.
Our current system is like if your employer picked your car insurance, the rates (which YOU pay for, make no mistake about that) are dictated by the average driving record of all the people where you work, and if you got into an accident you'd have to see ONLY the insurance company's repair shop who would dictate everything from work done to costs. And in the meantime, the whole system would have been backed, created, and subsidized by the govt. for the purposes of a war that was over more than 60 years ago.

Wow! What a free market! :roll:

 

[randym431]

A typical family???

Behind on payments:
Energy bill (gas/elec) = $500
Credit card bills late = $400
House payment behind = $1800
Car payment behind = $600
Med bills = $900

Fed tax rebate = $1200
Estimated use of tax rebate = new iPods for the family

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: Capitalizt
just heard on the news that we wont be seeing any checks till MAY this year. The recession will probably be over by then.

Gotta love the efficiency of government.

Actually, I think that a two month turnaround in getting 150 billion dollars distributed is pretty good, especially considering the specifics have just NOW been worked out. Also, what makes you think there's even the remote possibility that we would be out of this recessionary mess in two months?!!

*checks calendar*
*counts on fingers*
*scratches head*

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: senseamp
The whole idea of free market system in healthcare is just laughable. For one you are operating under physical duress, and secondly you have no information about the price to make a decision on until after the procedure is already done and you get billed, plus you have no medical skills to evaluate the consequences of various decisions in front of you, that's even if you have any options anyways. It's simply not the environment for a free market to work, which is why what we are seeing in healthcare now is a complete and total market failure where we spend twice as much to get worse outcomes.

I think I'm going to need to get a second opinion on this.

Our current system is NOT a free market. That assertion of yours is what is laughable. It used to be, and it worked then. It is not one now. Pointing at our current system and its flaws and calling that a failure of a "free market" is intellectual dishonesty at best. I can't even shop for insurance providers, much less doctors.
Our current system is like if your employer picked your car insurance, the rates (which YOU pay for, make no mistake about that) are dictated by the average driving record of all the people where you work, and if you got into an accident you'd have to see ONLY the insurance company's repair shop who would dictate everything from work done to costs. And in the meantime, the whole system would have been backed, created, and subsidized by the govt. for the purposes of a war that was over more than 60 years ago.

Wow! What a free market! :roll:

:laugh:

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: senseamp
The whole idea of free market system in healthcare is just laughable. For one you are operating under physical duress, and secondly you have no information about the price to make a decision on until after the procedure is already done and you get billed, plus you have no medical skills to evaluate the consequences of various decisions in front of you, that's even if you have any options anyways. It's simply not the environment for a free market to work, which is why what we are seeing in healthcare now is a complete and total market failure where we spend twice as much to get worse outcomes.

I think I'm going to need to get a second opinion on this.

Our current system is NOT a free market. That assertion of yours is what is laughable. It used to be, and it worked then.

In what sense did it work then?
Free market working = those who can afford health care get it, and those who can't don't.
That is not to be confused with a working health care system.
If free market worked, why did the people decide to ditch it and pass Medicare and Medicaid? For the fun of it?

 

[BigJelly]

Originally posted by: TheSlamma

Originally posted by: Capitalizt
just heard on the news that we wont be seeing any checks till MAY this year. The recession will probably be over by then.

Gotta love the efficiency of government.

LOL, recession over in 4 month's. Guess you were not around for the 70's and 80's.

Since we are NOT in a recession--6 MONTHS OF NEGATIVE GDP GROWTH--this plan is nothing more that politicians buying votes during an election year.

Since democrats are in power they want to buy votes by taking money from tax payers and give it to some people that don't pay tax and those that pay the most (75k/150k) get nothing. It should have been, if anything, remove the 10% bracket (people are taxed 10% of their first 8k)--hence up to $800 dollars offered by republicans. That way people that ACTUALLY payed would get their money back instead of buying votes of low income voters. Outside of government this is called stealing and bribery.

FYI I will get a check, but as others have stated, it's MY money to begin with; so the government had on a no interest loan on me.

 

[child of wonder]

Originally posted by: loki8481
I look forward to dropping it into my savings account, thus doing nothing to impact the lowered consumer spending.

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: Capitalizt
just heard on the news that we wont be seeing any checks till MAY this year. The recession will probably be over by then.

Gotta love the efficiency of government.

Actually, I think that a two month turnaround in getting 150 billion dollars distributed is pretty good, especially considering the specifics have just NOW been worked out. Also, what makes you think there's even the remote possibility that we would be out of this recessionary mess in two months?!!

*checks calendar*
*counts on fingers*
*scratches head*

Whoops - 4 months