Strange voltage behavior....

dbal

Senior member
Dec 6, 2001
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Here are the readings (Low/High/Average) from MBM5 on a typical 5 hour session:
CPU Core 1,76 V 1,82 V 1,80 V
+3.3 3,23 V 3,33 V 3,30 V
+5.00 5,00 V 5,08 V 5,02 V
+12.00 11,73 V 11,98 V 11,93 V
-12.00 -11,86 V -11,61 V -11,68 V
-5.00 -4,99 V -4,89 V -4,94 V

Notice that the vcore is set@1.85v from the bios while average is only 1.8 with the lowest price hitting 1.76!! :Q Also, the +12.00 suffers with the average@11.93!!
One more thing happening lately but rarely is a sudden cpu overload when doing simple Windows tasks (no benchmarking or gaming etc.) resulting in overheating (HSF rises rpm) and heavy voltage fluctuating. After 10 minutes or so the crisis is over, cpu load and temp back to normal and core voltage below 1.85 again but solid steady @1.81 (never seen above 1.82 anyway).
I am smart enough to suspect my 300W PSU but I think there is more to know from u guys out there!

P.S1: I just noticed that in MBM5 voltage settings tab, no matter how much I try to apply the AS99127F sensor chip listed (ASUS P4T-E mobo), each time I close settings snd reopen the tab it is left blank...
 

THUGSROOK

Elite Member
Feb 3, 2001
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this is typical and actually not that bad at all. you should see how bad it gets on a Asus P4S333!

vcore will steal voltage from the 12v line if it needs it. the higher you set vcore the worse it gets.

get a better PSU - i have a 431W now but i know im prolly going to get a 550-650W and see if those minor fluctuation can disappear. if they do, i will be able to overclock higher on less voltage
(because of less flux)

HTH
 

dbal

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Dec 6, 2001
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Guess voltage supply is the reason that my Willie was not stable@133FSB and stuck to 130 while I think it has the potential. Thank God he reached that far under these circumstances I guess......
In addition, the low cpu vcore average might be the explanation of low cpu temp@heavy load (49C max) as commented by the forum few days ago , despite the 500Mhz overclock for a Willie....
Now it all makes sense, am I right??:frown:
 

THUGSROOK

Elite Member
Feb 3, 2001
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yes that makes sense.

if vcore is @ 1.85v but drops down to 1.7v during heavy loads - its not gonna be quite as hot as youd think. if we could keep those vcore voltages stable, wed all be overclocking higher.

when i get my better PSU we will know for sure just how much power these CPUs need.
its hard to believe 2700+mhz needs more then 431W.
 

dbal

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Dec 6, 2001
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<< this is typical and actually not that bad at all. you should see how bad it gets on a Asus P4S333! >>



What's typical thugs? The low vcore average on an ASUS by a whole 0.5v??????:Q Found the ASUS defect I was searching then...:frown:
How about the "crisis" I describe? Any explanation on that by someone? Could it be related to the voltage instability problem?
 

THUGSROOK

Elite Member
Feb 3, 2001
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all of it is typical for using more then 1.7v vcore on any P4 board.
you need a better PSU before looking any further.
 

dbal

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<< all of it is typical for using more then 1.7v vcore on any P4 board. >>



Yep but Willies have 1.75 default-so they are voltage unstable by design right....?
 

dysangel

Member
Apr 6, 2002
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My voltages are constant, but they are all high.
vcore- 1.84v
3.3v- 3.42v
5.00v- 5.04v
12.00v- 13.14v
should I be worried?
 

THUGSROOK

Elite Member
Feb 3, 2001
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its not that they are unstable - they just need a ton of power when overclocking.
ive got a 550W PSU coming for my system - il let everyone know if it makes a difference over a 431W.
my 431W fluctuates too much during heavy loads.
 

Nate420

Senior member
Feb 4, 2002
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The slight voltage flux everyone is seeing is unfixable, no PSU has a perfectly constant output 24/7.

Maybe an inherent trait of the 845D, or poopooed hardware monitoring(asus P4B266), but I was seeing extremely low 12V readings, like 10.8-11.2V on the + rail, and 11.5V was normal on the - rail. That was with an Antec 300W PSU. I've since upgraded to a Antec True 550Watt PSU, and the readings are almost the same as before, only slightly higher.

As I type this:
+12V - 11.31
-12V - 11.81
3.3V - 3.25
+5 - 4.92
-5 - 4.96
Core - 1.58 (set to 1.6) can drop to 1.55 under load

I didn't like seeing the 12V rail that low, although it was perfectly stable. I never had any probs with the 300W PSU, but I feel better knowing that I have more than enough PSU now, though the 12V still reads pretty low.
 

dbal

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Dec 6, 2001
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<< they just need a ton of power when overclocking.
my 431W fluctuates too much during heavy loads.
>>



Is overclocking a Willie considered a constant heavy load? I tried working it for an hour back to normal (1.5Ghz) but nothing changed.....
Anyway, in order to deal with the low vcore more efficiently do u thing I need to buy a 400W power PSU or mine is just of bad quality that can't supply the right voltage all the time under these circumstances (meaning that a quality 300WPSU would solve the problem)?
 

Nighthawk69

Golden Member
Oct 10, 2000
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Nate420: I have a 1.6A and P4B266-C currently at 2.4Ghz with an Antec 300watt PSU and I'm getting 11.25-11.31 on the +12v rail and 11.75-11.80 on the -12v rail. I was thinking that my limiting factor was going to be my PSU, since this is what everyone has told me, but maybe I could go higher with this one, is what I am beginning to think now from your comments. But first, what does the -12v rail mean?
 

Nate420

Senior member
Feb 4, 2002
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The 12V rail powers all fans, HDDs, CD/DVD/RW, and CPU(P4 atleast). I think only the spindle motors and head servos in the drives pull from the 12V.

I don't think there is any way that our 12V rail is really as low as what's being reported by MBM. I'll have to check my 12V in BIOS, not sure that I ever looked after upgrading PSU, or maybe I just can't remember.

Right now, looking at both MBM5 and Asus Probe(not running at the same time, that's a no-no)

Asus Probe.......................................................................MBM5
+12V - 11.904V................................................................11.31V
+5V - 4.919V....................................................................4.92V
+3.3V - 3.232V.................................................................3.25V
CoreV - 1.568V.................................................................1.56V (set at 1.575V at the moment)


Everything seems to match but that 12V rail. Leads me to believe that MBM5 is simply reporting inaccurate 12V readings. I'll have to check BIOS and update this post in a few.

Edit BIOS shows exactly the same as Asus Probe, with the exception of the Vcore, which BIOS shows as 1.55V. Guess MBM is just wrong.




 

Nighthawk69

Golden Member
Oct 10, 2000
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Hmm, I saw the same thing as well. That's interesting... my core voltage is reported by MBM5 as up to 0.05v higher than the BIOS reports and the 12v rail is up to around 0.8v lower than the BIOS reports.
 

Nighthawk69

Golden Member
Oct 10, 2000
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OK, here's what I've found:

Everything checks out exactly the same as ASUS Probe and the BIOS report in MBM5 except for the 12v rail which is about 0.6v too low in MBM5. I'm thinking there is a problem in MBM5's readout for this sensor, since if it were right I would be at 11.25v on the 12v rail--and down to almost 11v under full load--and I think at that voltage I would be hearing my fans wind down a bit under load, which I'm not getting. Plus, I would think there would be other voltage issues (random reboots, etc.) when I got down around 11.00v on the 12v rail, but that's just a guess.

Therefore, it looks like MBM5 is wrong on the 12v rail. Although, I'd like to see what everyone else is getting....

EDIT: It looks like the -12v rail report in MBM5 is pretty close to the ASUS Probe/BIOS report for the 12v line, but it still looks like it's about 0.05v too low... in theory, should the +12v and -12v rails be equal? I still don't understand what the negative rail is...

EDIT2: Hey Nate420, I just noticed that the difference you are seeing between ASUS Probe/BIOS and MBM5 is exactly the same as mine, about 0.6v too low in MBM5... just out of curiosity, what is your -12v rail reporting in MBM5?
 

Bozo Galora

Diamond Member
Oct 28, 1999
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I just have to sit back and shake my head when I see all this talk about voltages on the forums. Some guys
are even modding their PSU to increase the +5V rail so its closer to 5 or a liitle higher.
People are arguing over 4.89 vs. 4.77. Muahahahahah!!!
All this means absolutely nothing.
The voltages just have to be in spec. to work perfectly.
The problems come in at LOAD, when additional AMPERAGE is required. Insufficient amperage is the reason
for failure, not low volt readings. And poor rise time - the amount of milliseconds it takes for the amperage to
be ramped up to the mobo, and from the mobo regulator circuits. Its current fellas, not volts.

Thats the reason the Antec true power are so good. My volt readings on my Antec 380 are lower than my
Sparkle 400. But the Antec has individual NON COMBINED RAILS that dont share - full current available.

Blurb:

Table 3. DC Output Voltage Regulation
Output Range Min. Nom. Max. Unit
+12VDC ±5% +11.40 +12.00 +12.60 Volts
+5VDC ±5% +4.75 +5.00 +5.25 Volts
+3.3VDC ±5% +3.14 +3.30 +3.47 Volts
-5VDC ±10% -4.50 -5.00 -5.50 Volts
-12VDC ±10% -10.80 -12.00 -13.20 Volts
+5VSB ±5% +4.75 +5.00 +5.25 Volts
At +12 VDC peak loading, regulation at the +12 VDC output can go to ± 10%.

Standard Output Voltages

PCs use several different voltages to power their various components. The core voltages have mostly remained unchanged over the 20-year history of the PC, though a couple of the less-used voltages have essentially been dropped, and an important new one has been added. The power supply provides each of these voltages, in varying amounts depending on the model, directly from its circuitry.

Most of the power provided by the power supply is in the form of positive voltages, but some is in the form of negative voltages. Negative voltage is a slightly strange concept when used in reference to a DC current. In a nutshell, it just means that the voltage potential is measured from ground to the signal, instead of the signal to ground. It's essentially like turning a battery upside-down: same voltage, the current just goes backwards. The diagram below shows this better than I can explain it. :^)

<http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/sup/z_voltages.gif>

Scale illustration of the various voltages provided by a typical,
modern power supply. The color of each line corresponds to
the color normally given wires carrying that voltage in the
supply's motherboard connectors. The black zero voltage line
represents the system's ground, which is the reference point.

The amount of current provided at each voltage level is important because of its impact on determining the supply's ability to provide sufficient power for your system. That larger issue is discussed in a separate section. Here are the details on the various voltages provided by today's power supplies:

* -12 V: This voltage is used on some types of serial port circuits, whose amplifier circuits require both -12V and +12V. It is not needed on some newer systems, and even on older ones not very much is used, because the serial ports require little power. Most power supplies provide it for compatibility with older hardware, but usually with a current limit of less than 1 A.
* -5 V: A now archaic voltage, -5 V was used on some of the earliest PCs for floppy controllers and other circuits used by ISA bus cards. It is usually provided, in small quantity (generally less than 1A), for compatibility with older hardware. Some form factor power supplies such as the SFX no longer bother to supply it (systems using the SFX power supply are intended not to have ISA bus slots).
* 0 V: Zero volts is the ground of the PC's electrical system, also sometimes called common or (especially in the UK) earth. The ground signals provided by the power supply are used to complete circuits with the other voltages. They provide a plane of reference against which other voltages are measured.
* +3.3 V: The newest voltage level provided by modern power supplies, it was introduced with the ATX form factor and is now found on the ATX/NLX, SFX and WTX form factors. It is not found in Baby AT or older form factors. Originally, the lowest regular voltage provided by the power supply was +5 V, which was used to provide power to the CPU, memory, and everything else on the motherboard. Starting with the second generation Pentium chips, Intel went to a reduced 3.3 V voltage, in order to reduce power consumption as the chips got faster. This required motherboard manufacturers to put voltage regulators on their boards to change the +5 V to +3.3 V. The regulators produced a great deal of waste heat and having to do this reduction on the motherboard was very inefficient, so now the power supply provides +3.3 V directly. It is used to run most newer CPUs, as well as some types of system memory, AGP video cards, and other circuits.
* +5 V: On older form factor systems (Baby AT and earlier) , this is the voltage used to run the motherboard, the CPU (directly or indirectly) and the vast majority of other components in the system. On newer systems, many of the components, especially the CPU, have migrated to the lower +3.3 V described above, but the motherboard and many of its components still use +5 V.
* +12 V: This voltage is used primarily to power disk drive motors. It is also used by fans and other types of cooling devices. It is in most cases not used by the motherboard in a modern PC but is passed on to the system bus slots for any cards that might need it. Of course, drives are connected directly to the power supply through their own connectors.
http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/sup/funcVoltages-c.html
 

Nighthawk69

Golden Member
Oct 10, 2000
1,113
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0
Bozo Galora: Wow! Thank you for all of that excellent information, I appreciate your time explaining it all to us!
 

Nate420

Senior member
Feb 4, 2002
264
0
0
Bozo,

I don't think anyone is arguing about

<< 4.89 vs. 4.77 >>

, But 10.8V Vs. 12V is a bit more concerning.

You can have all the current available in the world, yet it will do no good without proper voltage for a given circuit. Considering that voltage is like electrical pressure and current being the actual flow of electricity (electrons), Your comment about voltage meaning nothing is like saying you could drain the Atlantic with a fish tank pump. It doesn't work that way.

Consider a simple circuit that has a total resistance of 10 Ohms, designed for 12V, that circuit would draw 1.2A(V/R=I). Take the same circuit and drop supply to 10V, now current flow has dropped to 1A. Can that circuit function on 1A? ..... Who knows, I'm just trying to illustrate a point. Voltage is just as important as current, one doesn't work without the other.
 
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