Study - more and more young men are playing video games instead of getting jobs

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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,699
6,196
126
We are entering a future where there won't be jobs for everyone. Video games seem like a good idea of what people can fill their time with.
Perhaps welfare payments can be tied to game particpation, say 40 hours a week for full payment.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
Maybe a society with problems blames the victims while the victims blame anybody else.

That's a very millennial idea -- the very generation we are speculating reasons for their failures.

I grew up in a transition between generations. There certainly was some of things such as everyone getting trophies for participating in sports. And, at least in my household, it was clear that race had no place in the judgment of others. Yet these notions had not yet reach the hysterics of today where a child cannot succeed should they leave behind their peers.

It seems to me that our emphasis on ensuring equity has left many people in severe conflict with their own success. Since we punish so severely narcissism and racism, etc., we must ensure we are considerate to others if we are to win. If one cannot enjoy winning without guilt, why should we ask them to win? Since the rewards of success are guaranteed by showing up, why should anyone do anything else? To maintain self-esteem in this system, we merely need to provide evidence to ourselves that we are good enough to succeed if we want to. And it is so easy because we have elected to view those who succeed as a narcissistic, oppressive evil responsible for all our failings.

And, strangely, this is born out of moral truth. There is no role for narcissism in the advancement of the world. And there is no difference in the potential good of a person based on race, color, creed, gender, sexual orientation, body type, etc.

Yet, people aren't wired that way. Our chief need is to maintain our sense of self, even if that sense of self is a negative one. And we are very adept at doing so. And that self which we aspire to be? It is set in motion in our development by our introjected parents. If they are constantly undercutting your successes to make sure everything is "fair", then they undercut your success later in life.

Which sounds like a perverted way of saying that the progressive liberal ideal is right, and it's exactly the thing that will destroy society.

But that's not a heartwarming solution. The ideal of striving for equity is not a bad one at all -- it's good to try to protect against self-centeredness. In reality, though, development of narcissism and/or failure of empathy has little to do with instituting fairness behaviors. I think we can hold to these ideals yet be much more concerted about rewarding and purely enjoying success so long as it was earned. And if some other kid gets jealous, good. We all get jealous. Giving your kid a trophy because someone beat him doesn't make losing not suck, and it doesn't make him not jealous of the kid who won. But it does afford him a moralized defense against that jealousy. So, it makes it that much easier to maintain stability of the self in the face of sucking at life.

Really, people. We don't need to have everyone be losers for things to be fair.
 

depsctr

Junior Member
Oct 2, 2016
1
0
1
Welcome to the end stage of civilization, or the slow decline as they say.

Look up the Egalitarian Cycle on youtube, this is how the cycle ends.

Primates banging on their chests to prove their worth to women, this guides societies until it becomes maladaptive and dysfunctional. You see this in this election, the measure of a man is his value to women, even Trump does this, and it is the basis of many of the attacks on each side.

It's all so predictable, the un-sustainability of their civilization, their social model they promote, so they fixate on the trivial, the "trans-gender bathrooms" while Rome burns. The US is only propped up by groups it imports which haven't been fully corrupted by modernity yet, at some point this will stop working, or you will be over run.

"Don't talk to me or my wife's son ever again" This is the world you chose.

The "beautiful ones" are just the symptom

"There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part; you can't even passively take part, and you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all!"

The unconscious choice, a mass refusal based on dysfunctional conditions. You cannot stop this.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
there is no room for the hunter instinct in this modern world. Guys are gonna drop.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
white males will become second class citizens. That doesnt mean civilization will be over. lol.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
That's a very millennial idea -- the very generation we are speculating reasons for their failures.

I grew up in a transition between generations. There certainly was some of things such as everyone getting trophies for participating in sports. And, at least in my household, it was clear that race had no place in the judgment of others. Yet these notions had not yet reach the hysterics of today where a child cannot succeed should they leave behind their peers.

It seems to me that our emphasis on ensuring equity has left many people in severe conflict with their own success. Since we punish so severely narcissism and racism, etc., we must ensure we are considerate to others if we are to win. If one cannot enjoy winning without guilt, why should we ask them to win? Since the rewards of success are guaranteed by showing up, why should anyone do anything else? To maintain self-esteem in this system, we merely need to provide evidence to ourselves that we are good enough to succeed if we want to. And it is so easy because we have elected to view those who succeed as a narcissistic, oppressive evil responsible for all our failings.

And, strangely, this is born out of moral truth. There is no role for narcissism in the advancement of the world. And there is no difference in the potential good of a person based on race, color, creed, gender, sexual orientation, body type, etc.

Yet, people aren't wired that way. Our chief need is to maintain our sense of self, even if that sense of self is a negative one. And we are very adept at doing so. And that self which we aspire to be? It is set in motion in our development by our introjected parents. If they are constantly undercutting your successes to make sure everything is "fair", then they undercut your success later in life.

Which sounds like a perverted way of saying that the progressive liberal ideal is right, and it's exactly the thing that will destroy society.

But that's not a heartwarming solution. The ideal of striving for equity is not a bad one at all -- it's good to try to protect against self-centeredness. In reality, though, development of narcissism and/or failure of empathy has little to do with instituting fairness behaviors. I think we can hold to these ideals yet be much more concerted about rewarding and purely enjoying success so long as it was earned. And if some other kid gets jealous, good. We all get jealous. Giving your kid a trophy because someone beat him doesn't make losing not suck, and it doesn't make him not jealous of the kid who won. But it does afford him a moralized defense against that jealousy. So, it makes it that much easier to maintain stability of the self in the face of sucking at life.

Really, people. We don't need to have everyone be losers for things to be fair.

It's really not so much that "society" changed as the external realities did. Postwar merica had a labor shortage and resource surplus, where even relatively unskilled workers could earn enough to buy a home and such post haste. This simply isn't the reality today, where everything worth owning is increasingly already owned and large swathes of the population are well educated, so it's no great mystery why kids of this generation find things more difficult.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
white males will become second class citizens. That doesnt mean civilization will be over. lol.

A certain portion of white males already own much of what's worth owning. Of course the newcomers want some slice of the pie, too. So it's a classic resource contention problem with conservatives who want to keep things as they are on one side and you can figure out the rest.
 

Painman

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2000
3,805
29
86
Are these the "basement dwellers" that Hillary refers to?

Well, by all means, continue to attack vidya. That's gone SUPER WELL so far.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,613
3,459
136
Are streamers considered unemployed? I think some of these guys just live on paypal donations.

I took my daughter to San Diego comicon this year, and there was this youtube guy she really liked. I told her he might be there (just to appease her, though I didn't really think so). Turns out this guy had a huge booth with hundreds of people lined up for posters and autographs. How does some idiot who makes dumb youtube videos afford a booth at SDCC?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,699
6,196
126
interchange: That's a very millennial idea -- the very generation we are speculating reasons for their failures.

I grew up in a transition between generations. There certainly was some of things such as everyone getting trophies for participating in sports. And, at least in my household, it was clear that race had no place in the judgment of others. Yet these notions had not yet reach the hysterics of today where a child cannot succeed should they leave behind their peers.

M: I didn't know that children that excel fail because of it today. I didn't know things had become that hysterical, but then I am a nobody who has no worldly success in anything. I was too damaged , too emotionally handicapped by life events to tap the abilities I did seem to possess. My journey toward success and away from my peers was brief and ended in failure. Instead of learning to relish, I learned to hate competition, an issue about which I feel much confliction.

I play a lot of video games and what I see in them is an alternate place where people seem to bring their issues with them. I used to play WOW but people in general were vicious and cruel, striving to win and blaming any and all if their was any group failure, a world full of assholes just like the real one we live in. So I started playing D3 and I play with one good friend who is very kind or I play alone, but it is also by design a competition, all about getting and achieving standing or symbols of success. I don't care a bit about all that. I play for the fun of playing. I figure that even a nobody like me doesn't need to prove anything. I am already a success at being a nobody, hehe. Perhaps, then, I play games to much and that is why I never notices this peer thing, but maybe the reason there is so much competitive hate is that at least for me, I would hate what I couldn't walk away from.

i: It seems to me that our emphasis on ensuring equity has left many people in severe conflict with their own success. Since we punish so severely narcissism and racism, etc., we must ensure we are considerate to others if we are to win. If one cannot enjoy winning without guilt, why should we ask them to win? Since the rewards of success are guaranteed by showing up, why should anyone do anything else? To maintain self-esteem in this system, we merely need to provide evidence to ourselves that we are good enough to succeed if we want to. And it is so easy because we have elected to view those who succeed as a narcissistic, oppressive evil responsible for all our failings.

And, strangely, this is born out of moral truth. There is no role for narcissism in the advancement of the world. And there is no difference in the potential good of a person based on race, color, creed, gender, sexual orientation, body type, etc.

Yet, people aren't wired that way. Our chief need is to maintain our sense of self, even if that sense of self is a negative one. And we are very adept at doing so. And that self which we aspire to be? It is set in motion in our development by our introjected parents. If they are constantly undercutting your successes to make sure everything is "fair", then they undercut your success later in life.

Which sounds like a perverted way of saying that the progressive liberal ideal is right, and it's exactly the thing that will destroy society.

But that's not a heartwarming solution. The ideal of striving for equity is not a bad one at all -- it's good to try to protect against self-centeredness. In reality, though, development of narcissism and/or failure of empathy has little to do with instituting fairness behaviors. I think we can hold to these ideals yet be much more concerted about rewarding and purely enjoying success so long as it was earned. And if some other kid gets jealous, good. We all get jealous. Giving your kid a trophy because someone beat him doesn't make losing not suck, and it doesn't make him not jealous of the kid who won. But it does afford him a moralized defense against that jealousy. So, it makes it that much easier to maintain stability of the self in the face of sucking at life.

Really, people. We don't need to have everyone be losers for things to be fair.

M: I find you to be a surprisingly complex and sophisticated thinker, one who consistently comes at problems from angles I have never so formulated. Just a cautionary statement to remind you to be aware that my comments about this portion of your post may fall shout on my end with regards to my capacity to fully grasp what you have here intended:

As you may know, I believe the human dilemma is the product of self hate, the result of out linguistic abilities, the ability to create and transmit ideas and concepts, ones that have no real existence, namely the notion of good and evil, and out ability to feel pain, to put that pain into people by putting them down with words, with the idea that our behaviors as children were evil, and the fact that we would have dies had we not been able to avoid the endless experience of those feelings.

We live, therefore, not in the world of the present, filled with the consciousness only of the passing moment experiencing the pure joy of being, but in a state of duality, fear and anticipation that our suppressed hatred of ourselves will reach consciousness.

It is this inner conflict, this paradoxical state of being, the ego up front on the surface struggling for self affirmation, and the hidden, the suppressed feelings of self hate we can't allow intro conscious awareness that make us mentally ill. Our feelings of self hate create a profound and very violent need for self affirmation, yet outer success and achievement jangle against the and challenge our feelings of worthlessness. The result is that why we strive for success we sabotage those very efforts.

The problem then is that our efforts to succeed are often driven by self hatred which manifests as the hatred of others, the desire to crush the competition, while any false notions of achievement are cast aside as worthless because the do not affect or change feelings of which we are unaware. This is why it is often true that neither success of a real or fabricated kind nor some fake ideal of equality can help us achieve inner piece. The problem is that we are divided at a deep level against ourselves.

The man I knew who showed me these things, a psychologist who had relived his life back to six months of age and felt and understood the origins of his self hate suggested that we can profit from what he called digging the tunnel from two ends, to achieve something in life to demonstrate the logical impossibility that we are actually the worst in the world which is what we actually feel, and to relive our past so that we can become conscious of those feelings, remember where they came from and by seeing the context seeing also that they were a total lie, that there never was and never has been anything really wrong with us. We simply believe the putdowns were true when they weren't.

[/QUOTE]
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,699
6,196
126
Welcome to the end stage of civilization, or the slow decline as they say.

Look up the Egalitarian Cycle on youtube, this is how the cycle ends.

Primates banging on their chests to prove their worth to women, this guides societies until it becomes maladaptive and dysfunctional. You see this in this election, the measure of a man is his value to women, even Trump does this, and it is the basis of many of the attacks on each side.

It's all so predictable, the un-sustainability of their civilization, their social model they promote, so they fixate on the trivial, the "trans-gender bathrooms" while Rome burns. The US is only propped up by groups it imports which haven't been fully corrupted by modernity yet, at some point this will stop working, or you will be over run.

"Don't talk to me or my wife's son ever again" This is the world you chose.

The "beautiful ones" are just the symptom

"There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part; you can't even passively take part, and you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all!"

The unconscious choice, a mass refusal based on dysfunctional conditions. You cannot stop this.
Hehe, I hope I see more posts from you. What a stunner for your first. This reminds me of a saying I often think of:

The sword of God is the empty bellies of the poor.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
white males will become second class citizens. That doesnt mean civilization will be over. lol.

Asian engineers can replace white engineers, that is true. What happens if they suffer the same fate as their white counterparts? Without engineers, civilization will be over. You can count on that.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
Hehe, I hope I see more posts from you. What a stunner for your first. This reminds me of a saying I often think of:

The sword of God is the empty bellies of the poor.

There is no God, quit pretending there is.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,699
6,196
126
There is no God, quit pretending there is.
Hehe, look at you, full of righteous indignation at the notion that I believe in the God of idiots that you were suckered by and were destroyed by at his loss. I long ago forgave that fool who I killed him when He handed me the keys to heaven. You curled up in a whimpering ball instead of dying like a man. You didn't destroy God by doubt, you imbecile. You killed Love, your own love for the world. I will always try to help you because you are pitiful. I found the God whom you have hidden. I hid him just as you did. The kingdom of heaven isn't in a book a church or a place. It is your being. The eye that sees God is the same eye with which God sees you.

Forget about faith and belief and the jokes people tell themselves. Ask yourself how you could suffer God's death when there was never a God? How can you suffer the loss of meaning when everything is meaningless. Think and think hard. If the universe is cold benign and indifferent, why is it that you suffer? Where does your rage come from. The question is for you. I already know the answer.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
82,854
17,365
136
I dont know about other guys, but the only reason I'm still playing video games is because I cant get a job.
And if I take 12 credits and somehow still have a bit of free time, I'd rather relax than work. And if I could get full-time work I wouldnt even bother with college. Then I really would need some relaxation time in the evening.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
It's really not so much that "society" changed as the external realities did. Postwar merica had a labor shortage and resource surplus, where even relatively unskilled workers could earn enough to buy a home and such post haste. This simply isn't the reality today, where everything worth owning is increasingly already owned and large swathes of the population are well educated, so it's no great mystery why kids of this generation find things more difficult.

What if this is not true? Or, alternatively, significantly less true than you believe? If this is the prevailing attitude independent of reality, would it not become a self-fulfilling prophecy?

For instance, I have 2 brothers. Neither has a college degree. Both started employment in their current careers at an entry level. Both of them make more money than I do. I think this is because, while both recognized that their positions were "beneath them", they did not use that as a reason to ask for more. They instead realized that they were adding value with the work they were doing -- to the company, to the customer, and so they tried to do it well, and perhaps more importantly, they saw opportunity to help everyone do better. This, of course, led to promotion and for one to development of interpersonal connections to start his own business.

There is some data on immigrants that suggests they are 4 times more likely to become millionaires than people born here. These are often people coming with strange names, appearances which are appalling to much of America, not speaking our language, limited education, and products of a genuinely corrupt and overtly oppressive government. While these factors often lead to struggle, tragedy, mental illness, etc., they prove the existence of significant opportunity that is being squandered by people born here under better conditions, even if they are still not good conditions.

And I say this not to insinuate that people are lazy and need to grow up and don't need help, aren't suffering, etc. Instead, I merely wish to point to the value systems we have here and my feelings on the underpinnings of their existence, because I think our active choices and conscious beliefs today will determine the chances of success in our next generation, and I fear we are trying to run faster to escape oppression without understanding that we are choosing to run in the direction of it instead.
 

Yakk

Golden Member
May 28, 2016
1,574
275
81
Roger Waters got it mostly right, just at gaming to TV :



Amused To Death
Doctor Doctor what is wrong with me
This supermarket life is getting long
What is the heart life of a colour TV
What is the shelf life of a teenage queen
Ooh western woman
Ooh western girl
News hound sniffs the air
When Jessica Hahn goes down
He latches on to that symbol
Of detachment
Attracted by the peeling away of feeling
The celebrity of the abused shell the belle
Ooh western woman
Ooh western girl
And the children of Melrose
Strut their stuff
Is absolute zero cold enough
And out in the valley warm and clean
The little ones sit by their TV screens
No thoughts to think
No tears to cry
All sucked dry
Down to the very last breath
Bartender what is wrong with me
Why am I so out of breath
The captain said excuse me ma'am
This species has amused itself to death
Amused itself to death
Amused itself to death
We watched the tragedy unfold
We did as we were told
We bought and sold
It was the greatest show on earth
But then it was over
We ohhed and aahed
We drove our racing cars
We ate our last few jars of caviar
And somewhere out there in the stars
A keen-eyed look-out
Spied a flickering light
Our last hurrah
And when they found our shadows
Grouped around the TV sets
They ran down every lead
They repeated every test
They checked out all the data on their lists
And then the alien anthropologists
Admitted they were still perplexed
But on eliminating every other reason
For our sad demise
They logged the explanation left
This species has amused itself to death
No tears to cry no feelings left
This species has amused itself to death
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
I didn't know that children that excel fail because of it today. I didn't know things had become that hysterical, but then I am a nobody who has no worldly success in anything. I was too damaged , too emotionally handicapped by life events to tap the abilities I did seem to possess. My journey toward success and away from my peers was brief and ended in failure. Instead of learning to relish, I learned to hate competition, an issue about which I feel much confliction.

I permit you to thoroughly enjoy this discourse without caring to evaluate how your contributions to it reflect upon yourself. Both of us will be better for it.

I play a lot of video games and what I see in them is an alternate place where people seem to bring their issues with them. I used to play WOW but people in general were vicious and cruel, striving to win and blaming any and all if their was any group failure, a world full of assholes just like the real one we live in. So I started playing D3 and I play with one good friend who is very kind or I play alone, but it is also by design a competition, all about getting and achieving standing or symbols of success. I don't care a bit about all that. I play for the fun of playing. I figure that even a nobody like me doesn't need to prove anything. I am already a success at being a nobody, hehe. Perhaps, then, I play games to much and that is why I never notices this peer thing, but maybe the reason there is so much competitive hate is that at least for me, I would hate what I couldn't walk away from.

I hope that someday you can enjoy things in life which also compete with others. I am glad you care about and think about the experience of others, but perhaps you can feel good for yourself and feel bad for others at the same time, instead of thinking you can only be good if you both feel bad.

I find you to be a surprisingly complex and sophisticated thinker, one who consistently comes at problems from angles I have never so formulated. Just a cautionary statement to remind you to be aware that my comments about this portion of your post may fall shout on my end with regards to my capacity to fully grasp what you have here intended:

I'm glad you still engage despite the disclaimer. When you disclaim, it usually means you have something important to say.

As you may know, I believe the human dilemma is the product of self hate, the result of out linguistic abilities, the ability to create and transmit ideas and concepts, ones that have no real existence, namely the notion of good and evil, and out ability to feel pain, to put that pain into people by putting them down with words, with the idea that our behaviors as children were evil, and the fact that we would have dies had we not been able to avoid the endless experience of those feelings.

We live, therefore, not in the world of the present, filled with the consciousness only of the passing moment experiencing the pure joy of being, but in a state of duality, fear and anticipation that our suppressed hatred of ourselves will reach consciousness.

It is this inner conflict, this paradoxical state of being, the ego up front on the surface struggling for self affirmation, and the hidden, the suppressed feelings of self hate we can't allow intro conscious awareness that make us mentally ill. Our feelings of self hate create a profound and very violent need for self affirmation, yet outer success and achievement jangle against the and challenge our feelings of worthlessness. The result is that why we strive for success we sabotage those very efforts.

The problem then is that our efforts to succeed are often driven by self hatred which manifests as the hatred of others, the desire to crush the competition, while any false notions of achievement are cast aside as worthless because the do not affect or change feelings of which we are unaware. This is why it is often true that neither success of a real or fabricated kind nor some fake ideal of equality can help us achieve inner piece. The problem is that we are divided at a deep level against ourselves.

The man I knew who showed me these things, a psychologist who had relived his life back to six months of age and felt and understood the origins of his self hate suggested that we can profit from what he called digging the tunnel from two ends, to achieve something in life to demonstrate the logical impossibility that we are actually the worst in the world which is what we actually feel, and to relive our past so that we can become conscious of those feelings, remember where they came from and by seeing the context seeing also that they were a total lie, that there never was and never has been anything really wrong with us. We simply believe the putdowns were true when they weren't.

I am going to guess that you have a complicated mother, one whose identity hinged on a lot of suffering, and that you struggle to identify with your dad (or perhaps there is overt animosity or absence).

Simply put, I find your formulation fascinating and involving a lot of awareness lost on most people, but I do not find it universal to human existence, merely fitting with your own existence (though shared in common with many people including myself, and to some degree most of us).

What I think you demonstrate the capacity for, though, is realizing that your sense of self is deeper than this paradigm, and you might want to feel better about looking for it. To do so requires contending with the notion that you will no longer exist should you permit that identity to unravel. That is not truth. Only an infant's fantasy. You can only carry yourself through if you see that; and do not punish yourself for it, as how could you be mad at an infant for thinking that the entire world was theirs?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,699
6,196
126
interchange: I permit you to thoroughly enjoy this discourse without caring to evaluate how your contributions to it reflect upon yourself. Both of us will be better for it.

Perhaps by saying I am a nobody that conveys what it would to most people, a sense of being nothing, of having no value. But I am a nobody because I died to all the things that were precious to me, all the things I hid behind to tell myself I had value, all my precious beliefs and moral values, my belief that there is a good and I knew what it is. I used to be a person of faith, a person who believed in the good, that the universe was guided by a God who is just and that all that people suffer will not be in vane. My faith in all that died and when it did, so did I. I fell into the darkness of nothing and was saved by a strange grace. I defeated the Nothing and ended my suffering. I lost all that can be lost and found what can never be lost. I became a nobody, a defeated being and that was what allowed me to win. I know all because I know nothing. There is nothing to know. Knowing is for the ego.

i: I hope that someday you can enjoy things in life which also compete with others. I am glad you care about and think about the experience of others, but perhaps you can feel good for yourself and feel bad for others at the same time, instead of thinking you can only be good if you both feel bad.

M: I am the ultimate winner. I defeated the Nothing. I vow to save all sentient beings. I feel deeply that people suffer but nobody can be forced to see. The world begins and ends in me, a nobody.

i: I'm glad you still engage despite the disclaimer. When you disclaim, it usually means you have something important to say.

M: Better for me to be a nobody than important because that would feed my ego and feed those still unconscious parts of my being derived from it.

i: I am going to guess that you have a complicated mother, one whose identity hinged on a lot of suffering, and that you struggle to identify with your dad (or perhaps there is overt animosity or absence).

Simply put, I find your formulation fascinating and involving a lot of awareness lost on most people, but I do not find it universal to human existence, merely fitting with your own existence (though shared in common with many people including myself, and to some degree most of us).

M: I talk to you because I feel your line of work can profit from the things I say. I understand how presumptuous that is. I also believe that if anybody can see the universality to what I am saying it might be you. You are psychologically complex. My own teacher couldn't believe he hated himself. He was a real winner. I couldn't believe it either. I must have spent several hours after a journey within saying over and over I can't believe I was this sad.

i: What I think you demonstrate the capacity for, though, is realizing that your sense of self is deeper than this paradigm, and you might want to feel better about looking for it. To do so requires contending with the notion that you will no longer exist should you permit that identity to unravel. That is not truth. Only an infant's fantasy. You can only carry yourself through if you see that; and do not punish yourself for it, as how could you be mad at an infant for thinking that the entire world was theirs?

M: I believe I already lost everything I have. I believe I am not attached to what I believe for motivated reasons but because I see the reality of it. I offer. I don't insist even though I am insistent. I see it as being true to what I believe.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,699
6,196
126
What if this is not true? Or, alternatively, significantly less true than you believe? If this is the prevailing attitude independent of reality, would it not become a self-fulfilling prophecy?

For instance, I have 2 brothers. Neither has a college degree. Both started employment in their current careers at an entry level. Both of them make more money than I do. I think this is because, while both recognized that their positions were "beneath them", they did not use that as a reason to ask for more. They instead realized that they were adding value with the work they were doing -- to the company, to the customer, and so they tried to do it well, and perhaps more importantly, they saw opportunity to help everyone do better. This, of course, led to promotion and for one to development of interpersonal connections to start his own business.

There is some data on immigrants that suggests they are 4 times more likely to become millionaires than people born here. These are often people coming with strange names, appearances which are appalling to much of America, not speaking our language, limited education, and products of a genuinely corrupt and overtly oppressive government. While these factors often lead to struggle, tragedy, mental illness, etc., they prove the existence of significant opportunity that is being squandered by people born here under better conditions, even if they are still not good conditions.

And I say this not to insinuate that people are lazy and need to grow up and don't need help, aren't suffering, etc. Instead, I merely wish to point to the value systems we have here and my feelings on the underpinnings of their existence, because I think our active choices and conscious beliefs today will determine the chances of success in our next generation, and I fear we are trying to run faster to escape oppression without understanding that we are choosing to run in the direction of it instead.

I put this under the rubric, "Everything is a matter of attitude".
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
I put this under the rubric, "Everything is a matter of attitude".

I think that would benefit from an operational definition of "attitude".

If a person is psychotic, is it for us to decide that it is not reality that the government has implanted a communication chip inside their skull?

What if a person is in frank denial? Or perhaps a person that has projected their rage onto another to absolve themselves from it?

We cannot contain all of ourselves within. Those that try often have poor boundaries and take responsibility for the failure of others to do the same. To contain themselves, they must find ways to be gratified in doing so. This can be highly functional, mind you. Objectively, who would deny that Mother Theresa or Ghandi were masochists? But they are celebrated nonetheless, and I believe they experienced much gratification in their suffering.

In working with patients, beyond a high threshold of risk of harm to self or other, I aim to merely bring people to the point of understanding their ability to choose which psychic reality is best for them, not to provide them with the correct "attitude".

But society is not my patient. Society's philosophy and laws influence strongly the psychic reality of the persons born within it. And, for that, I am not neutral. I want for the world a psychic reality with a full and rich internal experience, one whose pursuit of that is reinforced by the nature of the society itself.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
I talk to you because I feel your line of work can profit from the things I say. I understand how presumptuous that is. I also believe that if anybody can see the universality to what I am saying it might be you. You are psychologically complex. My own teacher couldn't believe he hated himself. He was a real winner. I couldn't believe it either. I must have spent several hours after a journey within saying over and over I can't believe I was this sad.

I believe I already lost everything I have. I believe I am not attached to what I believe for motivated reasons but because I see the reality of it. I offer. I don't insist even though I am insistent. I see it as being true to what I believe.

I have to consider what you say. You seemed to have introduced an ambivalence toward your understanding of what you write followed by a response indicating the reverse which tempts me to react in a contrary fashion without first appreciating what you say. I believe doing so would be a mistaken enactment of your past experiences.

Nonetheless, I will need time to consider things before approaching them more neutrally.
 
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