Study - more and more young men are playing video games instead of getting jobs

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1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
slow down the growth pls. infinite growth on a finite planet will lead to ecological and ultimately global suicide

Mankind has walked on the moon six times, there is an infinite universe out there, if we took the trillions of dollars in resources we spent on wars and killing one another plus the consumerism planned obsolescence disease (buying things we don't need with money we don't have that don't last) to keep up with Jones's we would probably be colonizing half the solar system by now.

Who knows if the person we ended up killing on the battlefield intentionally or as collateral damage was the one to solve some of the problems we would face with space travel.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
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It seems as though you are making an argument for psychoanalysis. Not perhaps the setting in which it is done nor the theory on which it is derived, but rather for the intents and attitude toward the analysand. Certainly analysis frequently struggles to establish and maintain such a working task. I cannot consider this an invalidation as it is also often successful. If better can be done elsewhere, I do not know it. But it is no coincidence to me how frequently psychoanalytic exploration arrives at an analogous location as many Eastern religions if only one strips away the language used to describe it.

And I do not agree with the conclusions you have drawn at this point. I have speculations on the reasons for those differences, but since I have engaged in such a work as you suggest, I think I'll merely continue it and see if we arrive at the same location again.

Psychoanalysis is really no different than analysis of any other physical system or skillset. For example if someone wanted to play some sport better, unless they have considerable talent there are undoubtedly a host of best practices they're missing out on or, or from another view act out a host of poor practices routinely. Similarly most people have bad habits in thought processes, which they can improve/optimize just like any other skill or tool. In the process of improvement, just like any path to a solution it really helps to have a workable model to illustrate how the existing problem can be manipulate, same as physics/chem, etc. So it's no surprise that people who've thought about this a lot may have come up with such models or likewise conceptual understandings of that space.

IMO making this process more explicit & straightforward like CBT or such, not unlike that sport, produces the best results.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Well I wonder about the ability to derive gratification from his tactics here and not from Diablo, but honestly it's not my place to decide this is wrong, even if I have inklings about his character and its origins. This thread has helped me become increasingly aware of how this forum has served for me to act out communication which I restrict myself from in other relationships in life (my patients, my family, my analyst). That awareness does not absolve me of the wish to exercise such freedom elsewhere, nor does it suggest to me that my boundaries needed loosening, but I suspect you would call here a "correct place to start."
Nasruden who had lost his keys in his cellar was found outside searching under a street lamp. When a student inquired why look outside under a street lamp Nasruden replied that it was too dark in the cellar and he could see just fine out here under the lamp. It seems to me that the master didn't much care about finding the keys but, rather, he was more interested in searching where he could see. I would have restricted my search to where I knew I might find the keys... So... In response to your notion of 'correct place' I'd opine that it depends on the objective. But, and probably more important is the correct objective. I'd think it more beneficial to involve the expertise of skilled professionals in that quest. It would seem to me that one is limited to ones own limitations when going about figuring out not only the objective but where to search.
In this forum I hardly ever post in threads that contain the subject matter consistent with my expertise. I don't much care to present my thinking regardless of the disagreement or agreement with the comments that might be made. I'm much more interested in learning than teaching... even though I've done the teaching bit as an adjunct. So what might be my objective or need? I think it might be a form of entertainment like playing Diablo. Win, lose or otherwise it is in the playing the game. Just like, I suspect, posting in a forum.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,685
6,195
126
slow down the growth pls. infinite growth on a finite planet will lead to ecological and ultimately global suicide
Really. I thought we were a class one civilization with 3 classes at least to go. I was hoping for chlorophyll in my skin and planting myself outside where I could play Diablo day and night is a virtual reality in my head while exchanging protoplasm with my neighbors roots set deep in the soil that coats the inner surface of a Dyson Sphere.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
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It is everything. I am considered EXTREMELY productive by many people I have worked for (as evidenced by my pay and job reviews).

I am also EXTREMELY unhappy. For me to be happy and useless is FAR more preferable than being useful and unhappy.

A life of misery is without a doubt a wasted life.

Then stop wasting your life.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,685
6,195
126
Nasruden who had lost his keys in his cellar was found outside searching under a street lamp. When a student inquired why look outside under a street lamp Nasruden replied that it was too dark in the cellar and he could see just fine out here under the lamp. It seems to me that the master didn't much care about finding the keys but, rather, he was more interested in searching where he could see. I would have restricted my search to where I knew I might find the keys... So... In response to your notion of 'correct place' I'd opine that it depends on the objective. But, and probably more important is the correct objective. I'd think it more beneficial to involve the expertise of skilled professionals in that quest. It would seem to me that one is limited to ones own limitations when going about figuring out not only the objective but where to search.
In this forum I hardly ever post in threads that contain the subject matter consistent with my expertise. I don't much care to present my thinking regardless of the disagreement or agreement with the comments that might be made. I'm much more interested in learning than teaching... even though I've done the teaching bit as an adjunct. So what might be my objective or need? I think it might be a form of entertainment like playing Diablo. Win, lose or otherwise it is in the playing the game. Just like, I suspect, posting in a forum.
That reminds me of the time Nasrudin went for a walk with one of his disciples and they spied a Dervish, a knower of secrets in the distance. The Dervish pointed to the sky to indicate there is one truth and it covers us all. The disciple begin to fear the Dervish might be a threat. The Mulla raised a rope he was carrying with which he led his donkey to reply that ordinary people try to reach that truth by means as useless as climbing into the sky on a rope. Good thought the disciple, if he tries anything funny we will tie him up.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
Psychoanalysis is really no different than analysis of any other physical system or skillset. For example if someone wanted to play some sport better, unless they have considerable talent there are undoubtedly a host of best practices they're missing out on or, or from another view act out a host of poor practices routinely. Similarly most people have bad habits in thought processes, which they can improve/optimize just like any other skill or tool. In the process of improvement, just like any path to a solution it really helps to have a workable model to illustrate how the existing problem can be manipulate, same as physics/chem, etc. So it's no surprise that people who've thought about this a lot may have come up with such models or likewise conceptual understandings of that space.

IMO making this process more explicit & straightforward like CBT or such, not unlike that sport, produces the best results.

While not possible in actuality because no one despite intensity of training can be aware of themselves such that their desires remain absent completely from the treatment, the ideal in analysis is for the analysand's psychic reality to be the only one that matters. The analyst's technique and model of the mind exist as so only to further the task of examining a person's psychic reality and its developmental context.

Freud argued with a different movement, one of psycho-synthesis, wherein it was the job of the practitioner to help the patient put those pieces together in a specific way. Psychoanalysis should abstain from such a task.

Whether that is the right thing to do versus conforming to a simple model of the mind and setting explicit treatment goals and using concrete tasks (as in CBT)... there is no way to answer.

But I do not think the 2 should be compared in such a way.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
That reminds me of the time Nasrudin went for a walk with one of his disciples and they spied a Dervish, a knower of secrets in the distance. The Dervish pointed to the sky to indicate there is one truth and it covers us all. The disciple begin to fear the Dervish might be a threat. The Mulla raised a rope he was carrying with which he led his donkey to reply that ordinary people try to reach that truth by means as useless as climbing into the sky on a rope. Good thought the disciple, if he tries anything funny we will tie him up.
Hehehe, I chuckle every time I read that one.
It does beg the question, however. What is that one truth that covers us all and how like the Dervish and Nasruden can we be so certain we know that we know what that is? My buddy Jesuit Timothy use to caution me that no one knows the truth but God. Which suggests that if he's right and if the Dervish also knows the truth then God is within us or at least in the Dervish. I related this notion to Timothy and he suggested that we know we know when we know but there is always going to be doubt... and that doubt is what humankind is limited by. Perfection might, therefore, be without doubt. All them emotions like fear and stuff seem to thrive on doubt... In a sense, I think.
Not too far away is an example of fear. Fear that if Trump don't win we'll be subjected to a state sponsored religion and you know how messed up Obama care is... hehehe. Someone said that the only thing to fear is fear itself... Ah well... guess I'll go look see if there are no aircraft in the sky so I can feel safe going outside.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
While not possible in actuality because no one despite intensity of training can be aware of themselves such that their desires remain absent completely from the treatment, the ideal in analysis is for the analysand's psychic reality to be the only one that matters. The analyst's technique and model of the mind exist as so only to further the task of examining a person's psychic reality and its developmental context.

Freud argued with a different movement, one of psycho-synthesis, wherein it was the job of the practitioner to help the patient put those pieces together in a specific way. Psychoanalysis should abstain from such a task.

Whether that is the right thing to do versus conforming to a simple model of the mind and setting explicit treatment goals and using concrete tasks (as in CBT)... there is no way to answer.

But I do not think the 2 should be compared in such a way.

IMO this reflects a reluctance of the discipline to practice more on "healthy" patients, or otherwise lack any kind of competitive measurement. To be direct, the same issue you raise might be that faced by kids sports.

In practice no athlete (or chessplayer, etc) is consciously aware of everything they're up to; all they can do is practice individual regimes, work for hours a day at all the pieces, and it still takes many years for it to all come together gradually up the levels. In contrast CBT as commonly practiced is more typical of little league.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,685
6,195
126
Then stop wasting your life.
I believe he is possessed as I was by the notion that truth, the meaningless of existence, is not as meaningless as everything else. He knows now that life is meaningless and all the sadness his delusional meaning held at bay for him as a youth came crashing in when his cherished dreams collapsed. He forgets that long before he was taught useless lies he lived in the Garden of Eden, that he was born in it. When you assume that life has meaning because there is a divine being that loves and cares for you, and your faith in that being dies, hope and happiness die too. They did for me. I surrendered completely to that blackness. In the depths of that blackness struggling to understand the nature of suffering a blast of wind hit my room and I entered the present moment, was that wind, and understood everything. I realized, and with great help from my readings in Zen, that the strawberry that grows on the cliff of oblivion is the present moment, my one and only self-being. My assumptions about what makes life worth living, the meaning I held dearest, was only a prison I had once believed in. God is love and He came back to life in me, in the joy of being here and now in the present. I am, I was, and always will be as the present manifests itself out of nothing. There is a prayer or a mantra that goes, form is here emptiness, emptiness form. A mirror that reflects everything is everything. The Lover and the Beloved are one and the same thing, lost in loves unity.

We seek love but it is love that is seeking us. When you lose all that can be taken, you are left only with what can never be taken

God is not dead, he is hidden in the hearts of men. Seek Him only there.

Like Lennon sang, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,685
6,195
126
Hehehe, I chuckle every time I read that one.
It does beg the question, however. What is that one truth that covers us all and how like the Dervish and Nasruden can we be so certain we know that we know what that is? My buddy Jesuit Timothy use to caution me that no one knows the truth but God. Which suggests that if he's right and if the Dervish also knows the truth then God is within us or at least in the Dervish. I related this notion to Timothy and he suggested that we know we know when we know but there is always going to be doubt... and that doubt is what humankind is limited by. Perfection might, therefore, be without doubt. All them emotions like fear and stuff seem to thrive on doubt... In a sense, I think.
Not too far away is an example of fear. Fear that if Trump don't win we'll be subjected to a state sponsored religion and you know how messed up Obama care is... hehehe. Someone said that the only thing to fear is fear itself... Ah well... guess I'll go look see if there are no aircraft in the sky so I can feel safe going outside.
I don't know much but I would say that there are three typical paths to that people have a chance on of finding the truth, on of which is the way of the monk, the path of devotion, the worship of a divine being or exemplar. In such a case it happens that some so deeply love that the lover disappears and only the love remains. In such cases, I think, people out of faith and devotion step right over the pit of doubt and become real. Maybe Timothy didn't get there or maybe he did, I don't know, but I think that was the path he determined to walk. A smartass like you must have helped him travel miles and miles. I can just hear him asking, God what have you done to me.

There he was creating this beautiful image of God and you, with your broom cleaning the dust off false idols, looking for a clean floor.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Well at first I was having a hard time wondering which one of us was the blind vet. But I found it more interesting to imagine each if us in that role. That was not nearly as satisfying, though, then distancing myself from the assumption that the vet was routing people to the "correct" place.
Well . . . at least you aren't the wheelchair. That's something. I think . . .

Got a friend whose living at home with momma in his 30s. Plays video games all day. Why? Because it's fun! Work sucks and video games are fun.

Have another friend who post on FB all day and night. I can't even go over to his home because he lets his 2 cats piss everywhere. He never cleans up their mess.

Many people allow comfort to destroy their lives. They have zero drive and hunger to do anything. It's the reason why Immigrants are able to land in America and become successful at a very quick pace. There is no competition.
People are weird. My neighbor on one side has a son in his early thirties who is living in his basement and playing video games. My neighbors on the other side have four sons who until recently were all living at home and not working. (One finally broke, found a job, and moved out of state.) Maybe sex isn't as good as it used to be . . .

It is everything. I am considered EXTREMELY productive by many people I have worked for (as evidenced by my pay and job reviews).

I am also EXTREMELY unhappy. For me to be happy and useless is FAR more preferable than being useful and unhappy.

A life of misery is without a doubt a wasted life.
lol First world problems. If you aren't happy, figure out why and fix it. You have a wife you presumably love, kids you presumably love, and money enough for life's necessities. Really, what more do you need? Maybe instead of being an engineer, you need to be a painter or a poet or the guy who stripes roads. Maybe you need to quit your job and start a pet store or a restaurant. Figure it out and sell it to your family. I guarantee they don't want you to be unhappy, and if it results in a tenth the income, you can all still have a happy life.

Compare that to life in, say, Aleppo. At any given moment, venturing outside could get one murdered by one side or the other. Cowering inside gives little safety, as one could be dragged out and shot or have the roof blown in by a bomb any day. You on the other hand had the good luck to be born in the greatest country in the world, with enough native intelligence and educational opportunities to prosper, the right skin tone to not have a jackboot on your neck, and opportunities galore. There is zero external reason for you to remain unhappy. Don't waste your life, fix thyself instead.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
The main caveat here is if global warming starts to reduce the amount of arable and livable land, we could feel more of a squeeze even if population begins to level off./QUOTE]

I dunno we have been mothballing arable land for half a century now. What was once farmland is now expensive hunting land for the wealthy.


 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,685
6,195
126
The main caveat here is if global warming starts to reduce the amount of arable and livable land, we could feel more of a squeeze even if population begins to level off./QUOTE]

I dunno we have been mothballing arable land for half a century now. What was once farmland is now expensive hunting land for the wealthy.

Just imagine when we turn to insects for our protein. You can stack meal worm boxes a mile high
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
Just imagine when we turn to insects for our protein. You can stack meal worm boxes a mile high

True story. When I lived in Brazil as a kid, we used to fry ant bottoms in butter and eat them like popcorn.
 

Triloby

Senior member
Mar 18, 2016
587
275
136
Are you serious?

Exhibit 1 (US is not alone in this case) - http://time.com/3998563/virtual-love-japan/

and http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24614830

Is that healthy and normal? If more and more young guys are like that, how could a nation be able to continue to prosper and grow?

Japan's problem is twofold: culture and society. The Japanese have a fatalistic view of work in the sense that most Japanese people will work more than 80 hours a week (plus lots of unpaid overtime and virtually no days off), and that you're not allowed to go home until after your boss leaves first. There's cases of people dying at their workplaces due to over-exhaustion and a complete lack of rest. The Japanese call that "karoshi", which some of them seem to hold in high regard. It's all about image, apparently. They are severe workaholics.

The consequences of such work ethics is that it increases the chances of young people dying at such an early age at life, and it also leaves little time for families and spouses to spend time with each other. When most of these overworked mothers and fathers can't find time to spend with each other or their children, they grow completely detached from their families, and it shows in their children during their adolescence years. Some of them will say that they never get to see their father that much, because he's always at work. Couple that with crazy expectations and school hours most Japanese children and teenagers have to deal with (cram schools and such), it just makes their lives even more chaotic than you'd think.

Some of the Japanese youth today learn about all of this, and they immediately have no desire to get typical full-time jobs as salary men, or even consider starting a family due to a lack of money, time, as well as stagnant economic opportunities within Japan. Some of them will get part-time jobs, but even those are not free from long hours or unpaid overtime along with the even lower pay-grades compared to having a full-time job (which is still not optimal nowadays for the reasons above).

Then you have those severe cases of otakus and hikikomoris popping up nowadays within Japan. It's definitely not a normal or good thing overall, but those kinds of people are merely a symptom of Japan's overall problems nowadays.
 
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Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
424
126
... we would probably be colonizing half the solar system by now.
Yeah, but then we'd hear endlessly about how that's causing "Solar System Warming".

Or maybe just.. "Galactic Change"?
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
IMO this reflects a reluctance of the discipline to practice more on "healthy" patients, or otherwise lack any kind of competitive measurement. To be direct, the same issue you raise might be that faced by kids sports.

In practice no athlete (or chessplayer, etc) is consciously aware of everything they're up to; all they can do is practice individual regimes, work for hours a day at all the pieces, and it still takes many years for it to all come together gradually up the levels. In contrast CBT as commonly practiced is more typical of little league.

I am not sure I understand your reply, but given your statements it's probably driven by some misunderstandings of what psychoanalysis is. And that is not much of a criticism, because I had only rudimentary understanding until I enrolled in specific analytic coursework. Unfortunately, myths about psychoanalysis and its origins degrade it from within the mental health community.

To clarify some things, psychoanalysis is more heavily critiqued in that it is restricted to people who are more well. Not necessarily by intent, but it is unlikely to be covered by any but the best insurances, and an analysis often lasts years at 4-5x/wk sessions, likely $150-250 straight from a person's wallet each time. As you can imagine, this creates a large selection bias.

As for "competitive measurement", this is a bit puzzling to me. There is no outcome to measure. Although it was created as an method to treat illness (originally hysteria), from the very beginning the theory has been that symptoms are the result of normal developmental processes present in all of us applied in problematic ways. And that the treatment must abstain from rendering judgment on these processes themselves -- merely deriving validation from the observation that as a result of such work, people were able to find more satisfying solutions to their conflicts than they utilized before. Of course, this abstinence is more an ideal than actuality. Analysis developed from the medical model, and even if practitioners were to completely separate from the notions of illness and normality, no person would enter treatment without self-judgment on things that they wish were different.

But this is my point. Although both are entered by a person who has an existing framework for their struggles and conscious ideas of their problems, CBT seeks to act within it, whereas analysis seeks to understand why and nothing else. If the understanding why never left someone feeling they received benefit, analysis probably would not exist today, but aside from that natural reality, it really would only be undermined by some "competitive measurement".

You may be imagining other psychotherapies, even ones whose theory of the mind are derived from psychoanalytic learning, as being psychoanalysis, or practice by people who are trained as psychoanalysts. They are not. Therapy should be compared to therapy. Analysis should be compared to analysis.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
I am not sure I understand your reply, but given your statements it's probably driven by some misunderstandings of what psychoanalysis is. And that is not much of a criticism, because I had only rudimentary understanding until I enrolled in specific analytic coursework. Unfortunately, myths about psychoanalysis and its origins degrade it from within the mental health community.

To clarify some things, psychoanalysis is more heavily critiqued in that it is restricted to people who are more well. Not necessarily by intent, but it is unlikely to be covered by any but the best insurances, and an analysis often lasts years at 4-5x/wk sessions, likely $150-250 straight from a person's wallet each time. As you can imagine, this creates a large selection bias.
I thought you were using the term generally, which was reinforced by referring to freud's practices as "psycho-synthesis" instead when it was the OG psychoanalysis. Most practicing therapists I've seen use a mix of strategies/techniques to probe & test what works, though I suppose that might be prejudiced towards current academic trainees, so best to clarify exactly which theory/practice or whatnot you had in mind. Like broadly pdm instead of dsm or more specific? Also, it's simply a matter of reality that not many healthy people are visiting a professional psychologist, nevermind several times a week, no matter who pays.

As for "competitive measurement", this is a bit puzzling to me. There is no outcome to measure. Although it was created as an method to treat illness (originally hysteria), from the very beginning the theory has been that symptoms are the result of normal developmental processes present in all of us applied in problematic ways. And that the treatment must abstain from rendering judgment on these processes themselves -- merely deriving validation from the observation that as a result of such work, people were able to find more satisfying solutions to their conflicts than they utilized before. Of course, this abstinence is more an ideal than actuality. Analysis developed from the medical model, and even if practitioners were to completely separate from the notions of illness and normality, no person would enter treatment without self-judgment on things that they wish were different.

But this is my point. Although both are entered by a person who has an existing framework for their struggles and conscious ideas of their problems, CBT seeks to act within it, whereas analysis seeks to understand why and nothing else. If the understanding why never left someone feeling they received benefit, analysis probably would not exist today, but aside from that natural reality, it really would only be undermined by some "competitive measurement".

You may be imagining other psychotherapies, even ones whose theory of the mind are derived from psychoanalytic learning, as being psychoanalysis, or practice by people who are trained as psychoanalysts. They are not. Therapy should be compared to therapy. Analysis should be compared to analysis.
Let's say instead of analyzing someone's certain thought process we analyzed their swimming process. We can certainly theorize how swimming developed or should work, and try to be non-judgmental about their performance despite rather problematic technique for most everyone who never learned properly. If we simply observe how they're flapping their arms, smarter or least more motivated clients might well be able to figure out how to use them more effectively. The reason why I called CBT like little league (like in the context of coaching/playing) is that it's a rudimentary attempt to set some goals and move towards them. So I guess that's the basis of my point, is the end game to observe & maybe understand how arms & water work OR do something with them? That seems a rather silly question when clearly the capitalized mutual exclusion is unnecessary, and if anything hinders what clients (and hopefully everyone) are hoping to get out of it, ie. how to do whatever they're hardly the greatest at and therefore seeking help with much better. Just as there are many approaches and levels to sports coaching incl the science, there is still a point to it.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,685
6,195
126
It seems as though you are making an argument for psychoanalysis. Not perhaps the setting in which it is done nor the theory on which it is derived, but rather for the intents and attitude toward the analysand. Certainly analysis frequently struggles to establish and maintain such a working task. I cannot consider this an invalidation as it is also often successful. If better can be done elsewhere, I do not know it. But it is no coincidence to me how frequently psychoanalytic exploration arrives at an analogous location as many Eastern religions if only one strips away the language used to describe it.

And I do not agree with the conclusions you have drawn at this point. I have speculations on the reasons for those differences, but since I have engaged in such a work as you suggest, I think I'll merely continue it and see if we arrive at the same location again.
Can you tell me what you mean by arriving at the same location again?

I believe there is one truth that covers us all, an alteration in cognitive perspective, words I have just formulated as such here, but which has been experienced from the dawn on language by different people and described by them in myriad ways, a seeing into the nature of reality that I am, of the millions of other ways it has or can be described, randomly describing as a state that confers its own sense of certainty or finality that one has arrived. Further, there are an infinite number of them also, I think the words, the collapse of duality, might apply, a state of timelessness that appears at the ending of thought, an entering into the awareness of the present, of trust in life and love.

What I do, have tried to do, am saying to you as a person who is searching via the tools of modern psychoanalysis is that I have listened deeply and carefully, long ago, to someone who made that breakthrough on that path, or so I believe. I have told you that he arrived there as a result of observation of his patients and the applications of the insights he found in them to himself. He discovered that as a very successful and developed person that he actually felt like he was the worst person in the world. I have also tasted of that feeling.

He said many many times that we do not know this, do not want to know it and do not know we do not want to know, that we would rather die than know it, and yet he found a way to do it, and the way he did was by allowing himself to feel what he really felt, to dive within.

He said dig the tunnel from both ends. He talked about a person who was the world's leading authority on ferns who could not on any logical level possibly be the worst person in the world, to do some things personally that has to logically defeat that possibility. It is probably a fulcrum point on which to brace against the reality of how we feel compared to what must actually be real. He said that when you feel what you feel fully it will take you back to a living experience a reliving of the first event or on sought of that feeling giving you both conscious awareness that you have had that feeling hidden within you from that time and the data to know that you were made to feel a lie.

Now my experience with therapy of various kinds, limited though it is, tells me that what is done in therapy normally is analysis, talk about stuff abstractly without allowing entry into the actual feeling state work for the insights without much of the real data. Or it is about pills or behavior change. But I believe the core truth of our being lies not in actions or medicated induced state, but in how we feel and what we do not to remember what that is.

Now the man of God may simply step over that pit, the Yoga transcend by the mindful ending of thought, the fakir through the presence of body on a bed of nails. Some may rocket there via LSD if the rocketing isn't off a building. Some may hear voices or see a burning bush or awaken at the sound of a temple bell or on the battle field.

But you have found your way to the door of modern psychological medicine and I just wanted to share a bit of what I imagine I know about that, fully aware there is no possible way you can trust it. When I first read a book about Zen that provided me with the data upon which I made my small jump, I threw it across the room in rage. Hehe, Moonbeam still has that temper.

My recommendation then is to focus on feeling what you feel. My teacher said he had the greatest of news, 'that what we feel about ourselves isn't true'. It's just true that's what we feel. Sadly, our truth operationally comes from what we feel which causes chaos not knowing what that is.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
@agent00f , I believe we are not so much in disagreement as we are trying to understand each other. To clarify some things:
1. I was not calling Freud's work psycho-synthesis. I was pointing out that he fought against psycho-synthesis as a way of clarifying what analysis is not.
2. PDM vs DSM vs ICD-10 vs whatever is irrelevant here, though there is likely some case conceptualization that is at least mentally constructed as a tool of the analyst.
3. Modern analysts likely use some combination of ego-psychology, self-psychology, object relations, etc. in their work. Again, the point is not which theory of mind is correct but that some exists in order to facilitate the analytic process.
4. I do not inherently disagree with your comparison, but I will say that inherently the mind is not swimming. Figuring out the mechanics of swimming and physics of water does not confer change itself. No human being can explore their mind however without things changing -- independent of any explicit or conscious attempt to do so.
 

Spungo

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2012
3,217
2
81
Sure, but if those jobs opened up and were available to US citizens with an increase in wage to attract people, other people could possibly transfer to them.
There are more people looking for jobs than job openings. There's this farce that we have a shortage of STEM grads. Getting an engineering degree doesn't guarantee at all a job in engineering. Mediocre engineers are a dime a dozen Likewise, getting a degree in the hard sciences will leave you likely even worse off. For example, the job offerings for chemistry are so piss-poor that employers are offering $12 an hour jobs with no bennies in mudane QA stuff for BS and MS holders.
I have a degree in chemistry and can confirm this. $13/h was pretty typical for college level lab work and knowledge of how to operate GC-MS machines that cost more than a house. I had to switch careers because the first one was such a disaster. I still communicate with some of my chemistry class mates, and every single one of them has left that field. There's simply no demand for anything technical. Chemists and physicists are some of the most well rounded individuals you will ever meet, but there's no demand for any kind of skilled labor. You'll get paid more to deliver furniture than you will with most STEM degrees.

We do seem to be reaching a point where there's not enough work to do. In the engineering office, at least 50% of our time is down time. An underground tunnel system for a city with 250k residents can be done by 5 guys with computers. We would love to actually do 40 hours of design and CAD work, but there's no demand for it. What the hell are we supposed to do with thousands of new engineers graduating every year? There's no work for them.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
Someone with a basic science bachelor's is probably better off going to work for less entry money at a business that promotes from within. Overall, growth potential is severely overlooked causing people to pass on jobs with low pay and low prestige. And many business owners are desperate for a decent employee to climb the ladder.
 

Ken g6

Programming Moderator, Elite Member
Moderator
Dec 11, 1999
16,282
3,904
75
I dunno we have been mothballing arable land for half a century now. What was once farmland is now expensive hunting land for the wealthy.


That's land per amount of crops. The number of human crop-eaters is going like this:

That doesn't allow for "mothballing arable land".
 
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