Stupid Microsoft 64-bit OS with no 16-bit

[lupi]

Originally posted by: rbV5

Originally posted by: RadiclDreamer

Originally posted by: rbV5

Originally posted by: lupi
I've run into this problem on several not very old games. I've heard from some that have done testing that this problem may go away with the next windows as it's included the virtual pc program as a standard item.

DreamSpark allows you to download Virtual PC for free as well. He's just lazy.

Hell, they let anyone have it for free. You dont even need to register.

So there you have it.

but you have to install it and have an extra xp key available

 

[KLin]

This thread delivers :laugh:

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: Platypus

Originally posted by: tokie
I didn't put it in the OS forum because I didn't need help or anything, just wanted to rant because it made me waste a bunch of time.

I am using Server 2008 for desktop because I got it for free through DreamSpark. The code is some old program written for Windows 95/98 which has no need to be updated.

Apparently it does.

:laugh:

 

[StinkyPinky]

Gee if only they had something called Virtual PC

 

[SparkyJJO]

When I found that 16 bit didn't work in 64 bit vista, I was like awww, I'll miss that soooooo much.....

Not.

Doesn't bother me a bit

I've got server 2008 through dreamspark as well. Wish they'd put 7 on there

 

[glugglug]

Originally posted by: tokie
So here I was, on my Windows Server 2008 x64 Desktop. I was trying to run a program which had some 16-bit crap in it, and it would not work under any circumstance. Apparently it works on 32-bit Windows Vista, but not under x64 because Microsoft removed 16-bit support completely.

Now I get it, to move forward you need to remove the legacy junk. And I support that. But you need to offer customers a contingency to support the move over -- e.g. virtualization for 16/32 bit applications. I see they are doing this with Windows 7 through XP support, but with Vista it was not done because someone wasn't thinking with their head. So I had to get on my Mac and use VMWare with my XP installation because I don't have virtualization on my desktop because I thought I would never need it. Took me another half hour to transfer over the files needed from desktop to laptop.

tl;dr Microsoft removed 16-bit support in 64-bit Vista without any way of supporting people through virtualization and made me waste time

Actually, this is not entirely MS fault. You might blame AMD for this. x64 long mode (meaning 64-bit host OS/virtual memory management) does not support the types of addressing needed for most 16-bit apps. It requires all processes to have a flat memory model rather than segmented.

That said, MS should have included an integrated transparent virtual machine for running 16-bit apps, as any 16-bit app or installer is going to be plenty fast with an emulated rather than native CPU.

When I first tried Windows 2003 x64 I was very disappointed to find the version of gzip which came with cygwin at the time was a 16-bit app. Fortunately winrar uncompresses gz files faster than gzip does anyway.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Tokie,

Dont let these people get to you. I too use old software because its good and Im a creature of habit. Heres my recent Vista rants:

Why in Millard Fillmores name did they get rid of full screen DOS windows in Vista?

Why is UAC so annoying- and why did I have to disable it?

I finally gave up and went back to XP.

 

[MmmSkyscraper]

Fail/10

 

[Locut0s]

WTF?

Keeping legacy support for old shit generation after generation is one of the main reasons Windows remained the hulking buggy behemoth it was for so long. It's only in the last few years that they have started to learn this lesson and things have gotten better!!

EDIT: If you want to run the old shit the solution is not to keep sporting it generation after generation. It's to either run an older OS or run a virtualized, sandboxed and or emulated OS!

 

[Modelworks]

16 bit application that you still use ? I've got some old programs that I still use, mainly programming stuff, but nothing 16 bit.

 

[Locut0s]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
16 bit application that you still use ? I've got some old programs that I still use, mainly programming stuff, but nothing 16 bit.

As I was mentioning earlier in Windows Software. If it's a 16 bit DOS app then DosBox will run just about everything flawlessly. I've thrown everything at this emulator from early 1980s games to demanding DOS games that expect 2 sound cards with exact IRQ,DMA settings, it runs everything!! For others there's Virtual PC as mentioned above.

 

[spikespiegal]

Why are you running a server OS as a desktop? Why are you using such old code?

I'm not speaking for the OP, but in my own experience this typically comes up in Citrix / Terminal Server Environments where eventually, if you work on the platform long enough, a director or CIO will order you to install a 16-bit legacy app even though performance will suffer. Given the current job market any response to the request other than "yessir" denotes brain damage.

Nothing like fighting through NTVDM and WowExec subsystems because some crappy accounting program written in Qbasic keeps polling the keyboard constantly for an interupt and pissing off 75 other users and slagging VMware.

So, while this is a messy example, it's an unfortunate common one and shows not all of you have as much experience with windows server as you think you do. In an ideal world you simply have the code re-written in VB by a bored script monky servant (intern), but it's not always viable. Trust me, I cringe less when I see a Malware thread show up in taskmger on a security scan than NTVDV / WowExec eating up a logical processor.

For the record, Server 2000 makes a killer, blisteringly fast and stable desktop OS *if* you are running 32-bit apps. 2003 doesn't.....matter of fact, I don't like 2003 much for anything other than SBS.

So, what happens when I type 'Sysedit' from a run prompt with Server 2008? Microsoft nurf that too?

 

[CZroe]

Originally posted by: foghorn67
Contingency? RU serious? It's 16 bit.

"16 bit stuff in it" != "some old 16 bit app"

The XP QuickRes utility and Sound Recorder also contained 16bit code, hence, they are absent in Vista x64

 

[Sea Moose]

Hey it worked, i am unbanned!! YIPEE

 

[Locut0s]

Originally posted by: Sea Moose
Hey it worked, i am unbanned!! YIPEE

Famous uhh.... first? words?

 

[lxskllr]

Originally posted by: Sea Moose
Hey it worked, i am unbanned!! YIPEE

Welcome back Moose. What did you do to get banned?

 

[theflyingpig]

Originally posted by: Sea Moose
Hey it worked, i am unbanned!! YIPEE

Now you must change your avatar. People associate your avatar with your posts. Therefore, if you change your avatar, no one will recognize it's you posting so you wont get banned as quickly. Everyone knows this.

 

[XZeroII]

1/10. If you want to run an OLD app, then run an OLD OS.

 

[Fritzo]

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan

Originally posted by: RadiclDreamer
You are running a server os on a desktop
You are running the latest server os at that
You are bitching that 16 bit apps which are old even by win2k standards

Fail post is fail.

haha :laugh:

:thumbsup:

Not completely- Vista 64 bit is showing up on a lot of laptops.

 

[RadiclDreamer]

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan

Originally posted by: RadiclDreamer
You are running a server os on a desktop
You are running the latest server os at that
You are bitching that 16 bit apps which are old even by win2k standards

Fail post is fail.

haha :laugh:

:thumbsup:

Not completely- Vista 64 bit is showing up on a lot of laptops.

Then do one of a few things

Find a replacement program
Stay with older laptop/desktop
Downgrade the newer machine to an older os
Stop bitching that a few apps out of eleventy billion dont work for you
?
Profit!

 

[RadiclDreamer]

On another note, I'm not complaining that my new 2008 vehicle wont run with a horse attached....

This is progress people, dont like the way the new stuff works, simple dont buy the new stuff. Noone forced your hand, you just want to be "cool" and tell all of your buddies that you are so past windows vista, you only run server 2008 now.

 

[tokie]

Originally posted by: Locut0s
WTF?

Keeping legacy support for old shit generation after generation is one of the main reasons Windows remained the hulking buggy behemoth it was for so long. It's only in the last few years that they have started to learn this lesson and things have gotten better!!

EDIT: If you want to run the old shit the solution is not to keep sporting it generation after generation. It's to either run an older OS or run a virtualized, sandboxed and or emulated OS!

Clearly you didn't read my full post.

I understand and support that old stuff needs to be cleared out of the base OS itself. But I am not happy that Microsoft offered no switchover for 16-bit stuff.

Look at Apple: when they moved from Classic to Mac OS, it came with Classic mode to support old apps. When they moved from PPC to Intel, they offered Rosetta. Now in Windows 7 Microsoft has decided that they need to do this for business support, and so they are offering Windows XP Mode/Virtualization. My point is that this should have been done right when Vista x64 came out, rather than having a 3 year period with no support. Someone wasn't thinking clearly at MS.

 

[glugglug]

Originally posted by: tokie

Originally posted by: Locut0s
WTF?

Keeping legacy support for old shit generation after generation is one of the main reasons Windows remained the hulking buggy behemoth it was for so long. It's only in the last few years that they have started to learn this lesson and things have gotten better!!

EDIT: If you want to run the old shit the solution is not to keep sporting it generation after generation. It's to either run an older OS or run a virtualized, sandboxed and or emulated OS!

Clearly you didn't read my full post.

I understand and support that old stuff needs to be cleared out of the base OS itself. But I am not happy that Microsoft offered no switchover for 16-bit stuff.

Look at Apple: when they moved from Classic to Mac OS, it came with Classic mode to support old apps. When they moved from PPC to Intel, they offered Rosetta. Now in Windows 7 Microsoft has decided that they need to do this for business support, and so they are offering Windows XP Mode/Virtualization. My point is that this should have been done right when Vista x64 came out, rather than having a 3 year period with no support. Someone wasn't thinking clearly at MS.

It's really more of an AMD decision to do away with 16-bit support (at least when running a 64-bit OS) than a Microsoft one. XP mode is an instance of Microsoft Virtual PC. There's no reason you can't accomplish the same thing with Vista + VMWare, or Vista + older version of VirtualPC for that matter. Also, the VirtualPC for Windows 7 requires enabling hardware virtualization in the BIOS (AMD-V or Intel-VT). The first x64 processors from both AMD and Intel did not support these technologies.

If anything, they have reduced support in Windows 7 -- with the old VirtualPC, any version of Vista could run a VM. The Windows 7 version comes only with Professional & Ultimate editions.