Sub-Prime Meltdown - FoxNews blames Clinton

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ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
Here:
Wall Street Journal.
Just part of the article.
link
Call it the revenge of Enron. The collapse of Enron in 2002 triggered a wave of regulations, most notably Sarbanes-Oxley. Less noticed but ultimately more consequential for today were accounting rules that forced financial service companies to change the way they report the value of their assets (or liabilities). Enron valued future contracts in such a way as to vastly inflate its reported profits. In response, accounting standards were shifted by the Financial Accounting Standards Board and validated by the SEC. The new standards force companies to value or "mark" their assets according to a different set of standards and levels.

The rules are complicated and arcane; the result isn't. Beginning last year, financial companies exposed to the mortgage market began to mark down their assets, quickly and steeply. That created a chain reaction, as losses that were reported on balance sheets led to declining stock prices and lower credit ratings, forcing these companies to put aside ever larger reserves (also dictated by banking regulations) to cover those losses.

In the case of AIG, the issues are even more arcane. In February, as its balance sheet continued to sharply decline, the company issued a statement saying that it "believes that its mark-to-market unrealized losses on the super senior credit default swap portfolio . . . are not indicative of the losses it may realize over time." Unless one is steeped in these issues, that statement is completely incomprehensible. Yet the inside baseball of accounting rules, regulation and markets adds up to the very comprehensible $85 billion of taxpayer money.

What AIG was saying then, and what others from Lehman to Bear Stearns to the world at large have been saying since, is that the losses showing up aren't "real." Yes, the layer upon layer of derivatives built on the foundation of mortgages is mind-boggling. One reason that AIG had floated beneath the radar screen of the business media (relative to Wall Street investment firms) is that its business model is so complex and opaque that it is impossible to describe simply. It was briefly in the news in 2005, after it was accused of improper accounting by the SEC and the New York attorney general. Then it faded from view, until now.

Among its many products, AIG offered insurance on derivatives built on other derivatives built on mortgages. It priced those according to computer models that no one person could have generated, not even the quantitative magicians who programmed them. And when default rates and home prices moved in ways that no model had predicted, the whole pricing structure was thrown out of whack.

The value of the underlying assets -- homes and mortgages -- declined, sometimes 10%, sometimes 20%, rarely more. That is a hit to the system, but on its own should never have led to the implosion of Wall Street. What has leveled Wall Street is that the value of the derivatives has declined to zero in some cases, at least according to what these companies are reporting.

There's something wrong with that picture: Down 20% doesn't equal down 100%. In a paralyzed environment, where few are buying and everyone is selling, a market price could well be near zero. But that is hardly the "real" price. If someone had to sell a home in Galveston, Texas, last week before Hurricane Ike, it might have sold for pennies on the dollar. Who would buy a home in the path of a hurricane? But only for those few days was that value "real."

The regulations were passed to prevent a repeat of Enron, but regulations are always a work of hindsight. Good regulatory regimes can mitigate future crises, and over the past hundred years, economic crises world-wide have become less disruptive. The panics of the late 1800s, the bank runs, the Great Depression in Europe and the United States, were all far more severe than what is unfolding today in terms of business failures and jobs, homes and savings lost.

But bad regulation is something to be feared, especially as industries become more complicated. Legislators and agencies would be wary of passing rules regulating how a semiconductor chip is programmed; they would recognize that while the outcomes those chips produce might be simple, the way they produce them is not. Yet financial service regulations sometimes act as if we still live in a time when deposits consisted of sacks of money in a vault.

A few years from now, there will be a magazine cover with someone we've never heard of who bought all of those mortgages and derivatives for next to nothing on the correct assumption that they were indeed worth quite a bit. In the interim, there will almost certainly be a wave of regulations designed to prevent the flood that has already occurred, some of which are likely to trigger another crisis down the line. Until we can have a more rational, measured public discussion about what government and regulations can and should do vis-à-vis financial markets, we are unlikely to break the cycle.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
Originally posted by: Napalm
The bill was passed 54-44 in the senate.

Link

The amended version was amended to get approval of the Dems and did pass as you note, but the changes were immaterial with respect to the subprime fiasco. McCain voted for the bill before he was neutral on the amendments, but Gramm was still the sponsor.

Anyway you cut it, a McCain Administration can't be good if Gramm is your top economic advisor and campaign chair... Gramm should scare you silly if he is going to have any role in a McCain administration.
So you are saying that they "bought" Biden's vote??

Biden didn't like the bill so they threw some earmarks his way and he changed his vote?

Maybe Biden will come out in the debate and say "I voted against the bill before I voted for it." We know how well that line of thinking worked for Kerry.
 

Napalm

Platinum Member
Oct 12, 1999
2,050
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Napalm
The bill was passed 54-44 in the senate.

Link

The amended version was amended to get approval of the Dems and did pass as you note, but the changes were immaterial with respect to the subprime fiasco. McCain voted for the bill before he was neutral on the amendments, but Gramm was still the sponsor.

Anyway you cut it, a McCain Administration can't be good if Gramm is your top economic advisor and campaign chair... Gramm should scare you silly if he is going to have any role in a McCain administration.
So you are saying that they "bought" Biden's vote??

Biden didn't like the bill so they threw some earmarks his way and he changed his vote?

Maybe Biden will come out in the debate and say "I voted against the bill before I voted for it." We know how well that line of thinking worked for Kerry.

I've update the "OP" to reflect the final passage of the bill and you are correct with respect to Biden's vote - but can you please tell me which "earmarks" you are talking about?

Now would you like to discuss Gramm and whether you think it is appropriate that he advises McCain and chairs his campaign?
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
Napalm, I don't know enough about the overall details of our banking problem to tell you that Gramm is to blame for them.

But I do not that it is not fair to blame one person for this mess. And as the article I just posted shows you can't blame LACK of regulation either. What you can blame is BAD regulation. And most of it is not written by one Senator sitting in his nice corner office.

As with Enron and WorldCom it may take a year or two to figure out what created this whole mess. But at the heart of it is the drop in housing prices and the bad lending practices of the two big government backed mortgage companies. And that was caused by both Clinton and Bush and their push to drive up home ownership.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
6
81
Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Let's not forget Dave warned us the whole time and was not just ignored but chastised for the warnings.
And somehow, all of those posts where you "warned us the whole time" about this specific problem have magically disappeared from the archives.
 

Butterbean

Banned
Oct 12, 2006
918
1
0
Originally posted by: Napalm
The bill was passed 54-44 in the senate.

Link

The amended version was amended to get approval of the Dems and did pass as you note, but the changes were immaterial with respect to the subprime fiasco. McCain voted for the bill before he was neutral on the amendments, but Gramm was still the sponsor.

Anyway you cut it, a McCain Administration can't be good if Gramm is your top economic advisor and campaign chair... Gramm should scare you silly if he is going to have any role in a McCain administration.



Hah - its one of Obama's economic advisors that pushed for changes to GS Act. Clinton's Treasury man Robert Rubin was driving force:

"Rubin calls for modernization through reform of Glass-Steagall Act." (1995)

"Robert E. Rubin, secretary of the Treasury, recommended that Congress pass legislation to reform or repeal the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933 to modernize the country's financial system...

Rubin said Glass-Steagall imposed unnecessary costs and made providing financial services less efficient and more costly. He said the act can "conceivably impede safety and soundness by limiting revenue diversification."

http://www.allbusiness.com/gov...ulations/500983-1.html

Thirty eight of forty five Dems voted for repeal including Biden. McCain didn't vote for repeal.

It's ridiculous for Dems to try to put all blame on GS repeal anyway (not that I thought it was good idea). It was Clinton and his messing with Community Reinvestment Act that caused a real give away to the subprime market - including illegal aliens (and Bush shares some blame there too).

People knew years ago a problem was coming a Dem shucktards stood in the way - from 2003 article in NY Times concerning reforms of Fannie and Freddie:



"''These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis,'' said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. ''The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.''

Barney Frank 2003

Representative Melvin L. Watt, Democrat of North Carolina, agreed.

''I don't see much other than a shell game going on here, moving something from one agency to another and in the process weakening the bargaining power of poorer families and their ability to get affordable housing,'' Mr. Watt said.



http://query.nytimes.com/gst/f...ec=&spon=&pagewanted=1


Here is 2006 article about Obama's precious ACORN getting illegals mortgages:

"Undocumented residents being recruited for loans"

http://www.signonsandiego.com/...206/news_1n6loans.html

Yeah we really need these same people with Bimbo Barry watching the store.














 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
Yeah, Buttertroll, but Gramm, Leach, and Bliley were all Republicans, and it was a Republican congress that wrote it. But quick, blame a Clinton adviser! :roll:

I'm a banker, and IMO people who try to pin this on one party or the other, or play similar partisan politics, are -- in a word -- idiots. Everyone is at fault.

Those using 20/20 hindsight to play petty partisan blame games in this time of crisis only prove themselves to be treasonous trash.
 

Napalm

Platinum Member
Oct 12, 1999
2,050
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Yeah, Buttertroll, but Gramm, Leach, and Bliley were all Republicans, and it was a Republican congress that wrote it. But quick, blame a Clinton adviser! :roll:

I'm a banker, and IMO people who try to pin this on one party or the other, or play similar partisan politics, are -- in a word -- idiots. Everyone is at fault.

Those using 20/20 hindsight to play petty partisan blame games in this time of crisis only prove themselves to be treasonous trash.

Good point. We wouldn't want to use lessons from history to guide the future.
 

Napalm

Platinum Member
Oct 12, 1999
2,050
0
0
Originally posted by: Napalm
Originally posted by: Vic
Yeah, Buttertroll, but Gramm, Leach, and Bliley were all Republicans, and it was a Republican congress that wrote it. But quick, blame a Clinton adviser! :roll:

I'm a banker, and IMO people who try to pin this on one party or the other, or play similar partisan politics, are -- in a word -- idiots. Everyone is at fault.

Those using 20/20 hindsight to play petty partisan blame games in this time of crisis only prove themselves to be treasonous trash.

Good point. We wouldn't want to use lessons from history to guide the future.

Oh yeah - and what kind of "trash" are bankers who keep the money when they win and raid taxpayers when they lose? Just curious, Vic the banker.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
Originally posted by: Napalm
Originally posted by: Napalm
Originally posted by: Vic
Yeah, Buttertroll, but Gramm, Leach, and Bliley were all Republicans, and it was a Republican congress that wrote it. But quick, blame a Clinton adviser! :roll:

I'm a banker, and IMO people who try to pin this on one party or the other, or play similar partisan politics, are -- in a word -- idiots. Everyone is at fault.

Those using 20/20 hindsight to play petty partisan blame games in this time of crisis only prove themselves to be treasonous trash.

Good point. We wouldn't want to use lessons from history to guide the future.

Oh yeah - and what kind of "trash" are bankers who keep the money when they win and raid taxpayers when they lose? Just curious, Vic the banker.

The taxpayers aren't giving me anything, pally. In fact, this has been a pretty crappy year for me, but thanks for caring. You gotta be a long long long ways higher up the food chain to get in on any of that bailout good times.

What I meant by "trash" (and I thought I was clear but I'll elaborate) are people who keep playing partisan games when it's pretty clear that it's a time where we need to work together. Some of you need to decide, once and for all, what is more important -- America? Or your party? I already know that Buttertroll hates America and loves only his tiny white Protestant fundamentalist Southern heterosexual paleoconservative slice of it, how about you?
 

Butterbean

Banned
Oct 12, 2006
918
1
0
Vic you don't even see your own contradictions. No wonder your having a bad year (I suspect is not the first).
 

Butterbean

Banned
Oct 12, 2006
918
1
0
Originally posted by: Napalm
Originally posted by: Napalm
Originally posted by: Vic
Yeah, Buttertroll, but Gramm, Leach, and Bliley were all Republicans, and it was a Republican congress that wrote it. But quick, blame a Clinton adviser! :roll:

I'm a banker, and IMO people who try to pin this on one party or the other, or play similar partisan politics, are -- in a word -- idiots. Everyone is at fault.

Those using 20/20 hindsight to play petty partisan blame games in this time of crisis only prove themselves to be treasonous trash.

Good point. We wouldn't want to use lessons from history to guide the future.

Oh yeah - and what kind of "trash" are bankers who keep the money when they win and raid taxpayers when they lose? Just curious, Vic the banker.

The same bankers who loan money to credit busts and illegal aliens because the Gov and ACORN make them.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,499
136
Originally posted by: Butterbean
Vic you don't even see your own contradictions. No wonder your having a bad year (I suspect is not the first).

You are insane and stupid. The world has left you behind and you're mad about it. You ever hear that the best revenge is living well? Well all these people you whine and complain about so much are finally living well; in a few months the kindergarten sex ed people and the homos are going to be running absolutely everything in our government. Not only that, but gay people have become not only accepted, but in some ways fashionable. You on the other hand have become a pathetic, embittered figure reduced to ranting insanely on internet message boards.

Again, I implore you to seek help. It's not too late for you.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
Originally posted by: Butterbean
Vic you don't even see your own contradictions. No wonder your having a bad year (I suspect is not the first).

Dude, the stock market could implode to dust and RE could become worthless and I could still retire on my investments, and I started from almost nothing. That's not the point. I'm not the kind to be content to be a winner amongst losers. I don't seek to win by pushing others down. Fucking people is not my style.

But yaknow, I'd love to hear about my contradictions from you. Prove to me that you aren't just another Tom Metsger/Bill Lind wackjob. Show me that you can think. If you actually can, that would be like a dream showdown for me. Seriously.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
Originally posted by: smashp
Anybody pointing Blame at Clinto needs to see what MAjority Leader Lott said about who deserves credit for this Bill

MAJORITY LEADER LOTT'S STATEMENT

"Mr. President, let me just take a moment at this time, if the Senator would allow me.

"When the history is written of this session of Congress, it will probably identify this piece of legislation as the single biggest achievement. I have heard this financial services modernization issue discussed for my entire career in the Congress, which is now up to 27 years. It has been tried by Republicans, by Democrats in the Congress, House and Senate, administrations of both parties. It never quite occurred.

"I think it is appropriate we commend all of those who have been involved in this process for bringing us to this moment. This legislation is going to pass overwhelmingly. It is going to bring us into the modern era of financial services. It is going to allow us to be more equally competitive around the world.

"I think we should properly note what has happened. If today's papers are any indication, we passed major trade legislation yesterday and it didn't even make the first section of one of the papers in this city; it wound up in the business section. It was hardly noted, the effort that was put into passing that major free trade legislation. I hope that will not be the case with this major legislation.

"So for all those involved--I won't begin at the top and go to the bottom--obviously Secretary Rubin was involved in earlier discussions; Alan Greenspan was involved; Secretary Summers has been involved. The administration did stay engaged when they could have said we are not going to talk anymore. Leaders in both the House and the Senate, the elected leadership, Democrats and Republicans on both sides of the aisle, on both sides of the Capitol worked to make this happen.

"Let me say for the record--I know, because I watched it very carefully and had some meetings which, I think, helped give it some momentum, some impetus--it would not be where it is today, it would not have been achieved, without the leadership of the senior Senator from Texas, Mr. Gramm. He has done a masterful job. Many people said: It won't happen. Many people said: He will kill it. I kept saying: No; you wait. He will make this happen through thick or thin. It will get done.

"It is being done. To take nothing away from all those involved--including the ranking member of the committee, Senator Sarbanes of Maryland, who was actively involved--I have to note, with a lot of appreciation and gratitude, the tremendous leadership of the Senator from Texas. I don't think he can probably ever replicate this effort again. So I think that at this time we should express our appreciation because it is a monumental achievement."

Forgetting who is to blame, what is the lesson here? Do we really understand how our economy works? If our economy works on greed, why should anyone be surprised that excesses, fraud, and the good old boy network will prevail?

Congress is full of people who are asked to vote on issues they do not understand, and the result is usually something awful. This is but one example.

IMHO, the problem is not with one Party, but the way legislation is written and passed. And this crisis is not different. Congress is going to pass a bill and they will NOT have a clue what the ultimate effects of the bill will be on the American economy.

This is also an example of why we need the best and brightest in government. We don't need any more Quayles, Palins or Bushs, or any number of Dems. We need some clarity and brilliance BEFORE THE HORSES ARE OUT OF THE BARN.

I weep for humanity. We are a sore and dumb species bent on self-destruction.

-Robert

 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
Originally posted by: Butterbean
Originally posted by: Napalm
Originally posted by: Napalm
Originally posted by: Vic
Yeah, Buttertroll, but Gramm, Leach, and Bliley were all Republicans, and it was a Republican congress that wrote it. But quick, blame a Clinton adviser! :roll:

I'm a banker, and IMO people who try to pin this on one party or the other, or play similar partisan politics, are -- in a word -- idiots. Everyone is at fault.

Those using 20/20 hindsight to play petty partisan blame games in this time of crisis only prove themselves to be treasonous trash.

Good point. We wouldn't want to use lessons from history to guide the future.

Oh yeah - and what kind of "trash" are bankers who keep the money when they win and raid taxpayers when they lose? Just curious, Vic the banker.

The same bankers who loan money to credit busts and illegal aliens because the Gov and ACORN make them.

No government agency, and certainly NOT ACORN, has forced any lender to make any loan. You obviously are clueless about the system of Capitalism, yet you are a constant cheerleader for something that will destroy it.

-Robert
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
6
81
Originally posted by: Butterbean
Hah - its one of Obama's economic advisors that pushed for changes to GS Act. Clinton's Treasury man Robert Rubin was driving force:

"Rubin calls for modernization through reform of Glass-Steagall Act." (1995)

"Robert E. Rubin, secretary of the Treasury, recommended that Congress pass legislation to reform or repeal the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933 to modernize the country's financial system...

Rubin said Glass-Steagall imposed unnecessary costs and made providing financial services less efficient and more costly. He said the act can "conceivably impede safety and soundness by limiting revenue diversification."

http://www.allbusiness.com/gov...ulations/500983-1.html

Thirty eight of forty five Dems voted for repeal including Biden. McCain didn't vote for repeal.

It's ridiculous for Dems to try to put all blame on GS repeal anyway (not that I thought it was good idea). It was Clinton and his messing with Community Reinvestment Act that caused a real give away to the subprime market - including illegal aliens (and Bush shares some blame there too).

People knew years ago a problem was coming a Dem shucktards stood in the way - from 2003 article in NY Times concerning reforms of Fannie and Freddie:



"''These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis,'' said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. ''The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.''

Barney Frank 2003

Representative Melvin L. Watt, Democrat of North Carolina, agreed.

''I don't see much other than a shell game going on here, moving something from one agency to another and in the process weakening the bargaining power of poorer families and their ability to get affordable housing,'' Mr. Watt said.



http://query.nytimes.com/gst/f...ec=&spon=&pagewanted=1


Here is 2006 article about Obama's precious ACORN getting illegals mortgages:

"Undocumented residents being recruited for loans"

http://www.signonsandiego.com/...206/news_1n6loans.html

Yeah we really need these same people with Bimbo Barry watching the store.
As is usual for your posts, this one is filled with the implication of wrongdoing when there's nothing of the kind. For example, you imply that Rubin's recommendation to repeal GS was a blanket recommendation for deregulation. You conveniently left out one of Rubin's stated requirements for the new law:

* Allowing insured depository institutions to affiliate only with firms that were well capitalized and well managed and had internal controls that adequately managed financial and operational risk, and only if the institutions' safety and soundness were unimpaired.

The proximal cause of the sub-prime crisis was that this requirement was NOT enforced by the Bush treasury department. There was essentially no oversight provided by treasury - no regulations issued - on investments by federal-reserve-system institutions in securitized sub-prime mortgages.

As to your guilt-by-association swipe at Obama because of ACORN's advocacy of EIN-based loans, this is completely irrelevant to the sub-prime mess. The EIN-based program was for low-interest rate loans for illegals with established credit. The sub-prime mess was caused by high-interest-rate loans issued to those who had bad credit. To quote the Wall Street Journal:

WSJ on Sub-Prime

The analysis of loan data by The Wall Street Journal indicates that from 2004 to 2006, when home prices peaked in many parts of the country, more than 2,500 banks, thrifts, credit unions and mortgage companies made a combined $1.5 trillion in high-interest-rate loans. Most subprime loans, which are extended to borrowers with sketchy credit or stretched finances, fall into this basket.

High-rate mortgages accounted for 29% of the total number of home loans originated last year [2006], up from 16% in 2004. About 10.3 million high-rate loans were made in the past three years, out of a total of 43.6 million mortgages. High-rate lending jumped by an even larger percentage in 68 metropolitan areas, from Lewiston, Maine, to Ocala, Fla., to Tacoma, Wash.

The EIN-based loan programs, by contrast, were in their infancy in 2006:

ACORN members, advocates on housing issues for low-and moderate-income people and Citibank have quietly recruited applicants in the county for more than a year. Their program has ramped up slowly because applicants need to establish credit and hunt for an affordable home.

But the market is vast and the level of interest in the program is high, especially since the loans typically offer below-market interest rates, down-payment assistance and require no mortgage insurance.

Wells Fargo recently seized on the market, joining Citibank as the only nationwide banks offering tax-ID loans. Wells Fargo started its pilot tax-ID loan program in Los Angeles and Orange counties in December [2005].

Nice try to divert a thread on the Sub-prime mess, though. Next, we'll be hearing about a Marxist connection.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Clinton implemented a lot of the changes. Fine. Bush twisted them and his minions didn't pay attention (or intentionally looked the other way) as things got worse. GS should never have been able to get to 40:1 leverage. BSC and LEH should never have gotten to 30:1. That's just shitty regulation or outright knob polishing of the banks.

We should have followed the BIS, with regards to BASEL II, and started hammering at capital adequacy, especially in the amount and form of core capital (Tier I). Additionally, we should have forced FASB to overhaul and remove FAS140 QSPEs, and modifed FIN46 earlier to make off-balance sheet more difficult to get.

Bush blew it. He let the system run into a reef and rip its bottom out. It is *ALL* his fault, because he appointed the idiots who let it happen. The ridiculousness of the regulatory "oversight" (the complete lack thereof) is a failure of epic proportions and now we will pay for it.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,726
2,501
126
Fox News blaming Clinton for anything bad is hardly news, it's a kneejerk reaction.
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Yeah, Buttertroll, but Gramm, Leach, and Bliley were all Republicans, and it was a Republican congress that wrote it. But quick, blame a Clinton adviser! :roll:

You mean the way a Democrat Senate wrote the Patriot Act and the Iraq Resolution.......oh wait!

Originally posted by: Vic
Those using 20/20 hindsight to play petty partisan blame games in this time of crisis only prove themselves to be treasonous trash.

Sounds like Hurricane Katrina.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: Vic
Yeah, Buttertroll, but Gramm, Leach, and Bliley were all Republicans, and it was a Republican congress that wrote it. But quick, blame a Clinton adviser! :roll:

You mean the way a Democrat Senate wrote the Patriot Act and the Iraq Resolution.......oh wait they didn't.
Fixed.

 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
0
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: Vic
Yeah, Buttertroll, but Gramm, Leach, and Bliley were all Republicans, and it was a Republican congress that wrote it. But quick, blame a Clinton adviser! :roll:

You mean the way a Democrat Senate wrote the Patriot Act and the Iraq Resolution.......oh wait they didn't.
Fixed.

Sure they did....ask John Edwards, who proudly put his name on it,
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,819
1,126
126
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: Vic
Yeah, Buttertroll, but Gramm, Leach, and Bliley were all Republicans, and it was a Republican congress that wrote it. But quick, blame a Clinton adviser! :roll:

You mean the way a Democrat Senate wrote the Patriot Act and the Iraq Resolution.......oh wait!

Are you stuck on stupid? "stop trying to jack this thread with your crap and go start your own thread if you have issues with Biden or Edwards." ~ Napalm

EBT limp away already.
 

Napalm

Platinum Member
Oct 12, 1999
2,050
0
0
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: Vic
Yeah, Buttertroll, but Gramm, Leach, and Bliley were all Republicans, and it was a Republican congress that wrote it. But quick, blame a Clinton adviser! :roll:

You mean the way a Democrat Senate wrote the Patriot Act and the Iraq Resolution.......oh wait they didn't.
Fixed.

Sure they did....ask John Edwards, who proudly put his name on it,

I thought I asked you to start your own thread instead of trying to jack this one...
 
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