**Super Bowl LI ** Brady v Ryan - Who Ya Be Takin'?

[Childs]

Just some info on NFC vs AFC, then and now.

From 1981 to 2000, 15 of the 20 winners were from the NFC. 9 unique teams, and 5 had multiple SB appearances, and 4 out of those 5 had multiple wins.
49ers 5-0, Cowboys 3-0, Giants 2-0, Bears 1-0, Rams 1-0, Redskins 3-1, Packers 1-1, Eagles 0-1, Flacons 0-1.

For the AFC, 9 unique SB teams, 6 with had multiple SB appearances.
Raiders 2-0, Broncos 2-3, Bills 0-4, Pats 0-2, Bengals 0-2, Dolphins 0-2, Steelers 0-1, Chargers 0-1, Titans 0-1

From 2001 to Now AFC has 11 of 17 winners, 6 unique teams and 5 of those had multiple SB appearances.
Ravens 2-0, Pats 5-2, Steelers 2-1, Colts 1-1, Broncos 1-1, Raiders 0-1

NFC has 12 unique teams in 17 years, 6 winners, and only 3 teams with multiple SB appearances.
Packers 1-0, Saints 1-0, Bucs 1-0, Giants 2-1, Seahawks 1-2, 49ers 0-1, Falcons 0-1, Cards 0-1, Rams 0-1, Eagles 0-1, Bears 0-1, Panthers 0-2

For whatever reason the NFC now is arguably much weaker because no team cant sustain any sort of run. Most of the NFC teams that made the SB were one and done. In the AFC all the teams except the Raiders made it back. In the previous era 5 of 9 NFC teams went more than once, and 4 of that 5 had multiple wins. Even though the AFC mostly lost, the same teams were always there. In the previous era there was a stretch that felt like it was either 49ers or the NFC East teams (minus Eagles) winning the Super Bowl every year, and in the playoffs they'd knock each other off. The breakdown can be massaged a bit as the Rams and Packers crossed eras, so maybe the Rams should represent the previous era. Probably better to break it down by decade, but this was already too much work.

 

[Majes]

Most of the reason for the NFC dominance is because the NFL salary cap was only introduced in 1994. Before that there were teams like the Cowboys and 49ers that completely dominated the league.

The only decent argument against Brady being GOAT is if you attribute most of New England's success to Bill Belichick. There can be a case made for this since the Patriots did extremely well in the season Brady missed to knee injury and they even went 3-1 without him this season. On the other hand neither the Patriots nor Belichick had much success at all before Brady arrived.

 

[Childs]

Most of the reason for the NFC dominance is because the NFL salary cap was only introduced in 1994. Before that there were teams like the Cowboys and 49ers that completely dominated the league.

The only decent argument against Brady being GOAT is if you attribute most of New England's success to Bill Belichick. There can be a case made for this since the Patriots did extremely well in the season Brady missed to knee injury and they even went 3-1 without him this season. On the other hand neither the Patriots nor Belichick had much success at all before Brady arrived.

That hasnt seemed to effected the AFC in the current era.

As far as Brady vs Montana, the only thing I would give to Brady is longevity. Montana had injury issues, especially late in his career. And medicinal knowledge has improved significantly so repair, recovery, and prevention is much better now than it was in 80's. Also, stats are misleading, since league rule changes over the years favor the offense, and they have instituted specific rules for hitting QBs because Brady was injured. If I'm told I need to choose a QB in their prime to win a game, and my life depended on it, I'd probably pick Montana, but I dont think you could go wrong with any of the top 5 to 7 QBs. Assuming equal talent at the other positions. This is where my memory could be playing tricks with me though, because I dont remember Montana failing, but since Brady is current his shortcomings are fresher in my mind.

I think I'd want Belichick as my coach though. Seems like he can win with anyone.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Most of the reason for the NFC dominance is because the NFL salary cap was only introduced in 1994. Before that there were teams like the Cowboys and 49ers that completely dominated the league.

The AFC seemed to have had most of the offensive stars in that era, particularly at QB - check out the 1983 draft and look at who took the Quarterbacks in the first round. There were 6 QBs taken in the first round and - surprise - all were taken by the AFC. Future HOFers Elway, Kelly, and Marino were among the picks. Another first round QB pick was Tony Eason - he stunk it up but he did take the Patriots to their first SB. On the other hand, you see most of the NFC teams picked defense or RBs. Many think that the AFC's reliance on passing attacks while the NFC largely relied on running and defense was the primary difference. The 49ers, of course, employed the West Coast offense, but they were the exception to the rule and the WC offense was almost like having a running game due to the high percentage nature of the attack. The AFC, on the other hand, seemed to prefer vertical passing attacks. I don't know if that's the whole story, but it is an interesting debate because the AFC got steamrolled (none of the games were close) for so long.

EDIT: Forgot that Seattle was in the AFC during the 83 draft, so that's a RB picked high by an AFC team.

 

[BUTCH1]

That hasnt seemed to effected the AFC in the current era.

As far as Brady vs Montana, the only thing I would give to Brady is longevity. Montana had injury issues, especially late in his career. And medicinal knowledge has improved significantly so repair, recovery, and prevention is much better now than it was in 80's. Also, stats are misleading, since league rule changes over the years favor the offense, and they have instituted specific rules for hitting QBs because Brady was injured. If I'm told I need to choose a QB in their prime to win a game, and my life depended on it, I'd probably pick Montana, but I dont think you could go wrong with any of the top 5 to 7 QBs. Assuming equal talent at the other positions. This is where my memory could be playing tricks with me though, because I dont remember Montana failing, but since Brady is current his shortcomings are fresher in my mind.

I think I'd want Belichick as my coach though. Seems like he can win with anyone.

Yes, Montana, (like Brady) didn't always win. He lost twice to the Giants in the playoff's as well as to the Vikings and the Redskins. The rule against hitting QB's low was not due to Brady, it was due to Carlson Palmer's season-ending ACL tear by an obvious cheap-shot by a Steeler defender.

 

[Childs]

Yes, Montana, (like Brady) didn't always win. He lost twice to the Giants in the playoff's as well as to the Vikings and the Redskins. The rule against hitting QB's low was not due to Brady, it was due to Carlson Palmer's season-ending ACL tear by an obvious cheap-shot by a Steeler defender.

hehe, the Palmer hit happened in 2006. The Brady hit in 2008. For 2009, no more low hits on QBs, aka The Brady Rule.

 

[BUTCH1]

Seeing the live broadcast I thought it showed that the ball hadn't crossed the GL before knee hit ground. Super slo-mo, top action playback. And I had my own pause, rewind going on my DVR to recheck. I think there's a real good chance that the replay officials just decided that reversing the decision was going to be a monumental hassle and they decided not to bother. Yup, it's MY opinion.

I re-watched it 4-5X and came away with the same result, the tip of the ball had crossed the line before his knee hits the ground, it's not by much, I'd say 1/2 the ball was over the line when his knee hit but that's all you need, and it's also why there is no controversy.

 

[BUTCH1]

hehe, the Palmer hit happened in 2006. The Brady hit in 2008. For 2009, no more low hits on QBs, aka The Brady Rule.

Hehe, your WRONG,
"
On January 8, 2006, the Bengals met their division rival Pittsburgh in the first round of the AFC playoffs at Paul Brown Stadium in Cincinnati.

On the Bengals' first pass play, Carson Palmer threw a 66-yard pass to rookie receiver Chris Henry. It was the longest completion in Bengals playoff history. After Palmer released the pass, Steelers defensive tackle Kimo von Oelhoffen fell to the ground and wrapped up Palmers leg to bring him down which resulted in a bad injury. Von Oelhoffen later publicly apologized. A magnetic resonance imaging test revealed a severe knee injury, thought to be career-threatening at the time; Palmer had tears of both the anterior cruciate and medial collateral ligaments as well as cartilage and meniscus damage. Coincidentally, Henry himself suffered a knee injury on the same play, though far less severe. Having knocked Palmer out of the game the Steelers went on to win 31–17.

During the off-season, the league's Rules Committee modified the rule regarding low hits on quarterbacks. The so-called "Carson Palmer Rule" which resulted requires that defenders take every opportunity to avoid hitting a quarterback at or below the knees when the quarterback is in a defenseless position looking to throw with both feet on the ground, unless they are blocked into him."
Rule was changed BEFORE Brady's hit.

 

[BUTCH1]

The AFC seemed to have had most of the offensive stars in that era, particularly at QB - check out the 1983 draft and look at who took the Quarterbacks in the first round. There were 6 QBs taken in the first round and - surprise - all were taken by the AFC. Future HOFers Elway, Kelly, and Marino were among the picks. Another first round QB pick was Tony Eason - he stunk it up but he did take the Patriots to their first SB. On the other hand, you see most of the NFC teams picked defense or RBs. Many think that the AFC's reliance on passing attacks while the NFC largely relied on running and defense was the primary difference. The 49ers, of course, employed the West Coast offense, but they were the exception to the rule and the WC offense was almost like having a running game due to the high percentage nature of the attack. The AFC, on the other hand, seemed to prefer vertical passing attacks. I don't know if that's the whole story, but it is an interesting debate because the AFC got steamrolled (none of the games were close) for so long.

EDIT: Forgot that Seattle was in the AFC during the 83 draft, so that's a RB picked high by an AFC team.

Yea, I remember the Bears/Pats SB in '85, I was so excited that the Pats finally made it to a SB, but in the back of my mind my rational brain was saying "it's the Bears". I was living in an old duplex and invited everyone over and made up a great snack assortment all the while that voice "it's the Bears" which I chose to ignore. Game day comes and everyone leaves by halftime, Tony Eason in the fetal position multiple times, and an appliance had scored a TD LOL. Whats weird is the Patriots finally got past the Dolphins in the AFCCG to get there with a grinding running attack behind all-pro tackle John Hanna but this was a HORRIBLE match-up vs the Bears. Earlier that season the Bears were handed their ONLY loss on the year by the Dolphins on MNF in an EPIC game for the ages. Marino got the ball out quick to the speedy receivers which the Bears could not cover plus the Dolphins did have a great O-line, had they made it to that SB it might have been VERY interesting. Anyway the complete MNF game is on You-tube, here's the link, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pcn0uMJkYEw

 

[Childs]

Hehe, your WRONG.

hehe , I dont think so.

http://archive.boston.com/sports/fo.../brady_rule_steps_taken_to_protect_qbs_knees/
http://www.patriots.com/news/2009/03/27/debate-friday-tom-brady-rule

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2010/12/...son-palmers-knee-injury-as-example-for-league

The Palmer rule is about going at the knees or lunging from the a standing position. Brady rule applies even to a player on ground going for lower legs, not just knees! After Brady got injured, no lower leg hits on QB, unless its Cam Newton.

 

[MrSquished]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/dynast...blesexcept-in-new-england-1486331425?mod=e2fb

 

[KMFJD]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/dynast...blesexcept-in-new-england-1486331425?mod=e2fb

behind a paywall....but from the little i read they do have a good point....although Montana didn't have much help until his 3rd super bowl.

 

[MrSquished]

A five thirty eight article on who is more responsible for the Patriots success, Brady or Belichik.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...s-insufferable-success/?addata=espn:nfl:index

 

[manly]

behind a paywall....but from the little i read they do have a good point....although Montana didn't have much help until his 3rd super bowl.

I wasn't a football fan back then, but Montana didn't have much help until his 3rd SB????

 

[Capt Caveman]

Good to see NFL Films stating that Brady the Greatest QB of All Time

A couple of really good articles discussing the adjustments made to make the 2nd Half a completely different game:

Patriots made a key adjustment to get offense going vs. Falcons
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/patriots/2017/02/08/onfoot/VVeSSl8oVzFPy6cAtzbJPJ/story.html

Here are the Patriots’ key offensive plays from Super Bowl LI
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/p...-super-bowl/Ndip0qpAWPF1l1fiCKYN3O/story.html

Patriots defense was burned early but was there when it counted
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/p...hen-counted/bWnDKOLIMPIfh5wzeDORDJ/story.html

Patriots Replay: Key defensive plays from Super Bowl LI
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/p...-super-bowl/BFTSW6a62RQqeExu9OCrsO/story.html

 

[zinfamous]

Man....I like, totally hate to ruin football with politics, and I KNOW you guys have been dealing with this for a week, but lol @ the shameless Trump-supporting Patriots:

http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/bill-maher-tom-brady-patriots-video-watch-1201978292/

:sneaky:

now I kinda feel dirty for finding joy in the schadenfreude of the Patriots vs Goodell last week.

 

[Anubis]

Man....I like, totally hate to ruin football with politics, and I KNOW you guys have been dealing with this for a week, but lol @ the shameless Trump-supporting Patriots:

.

 

[BUTCH1]

hehe , I dont think so.

http://archive.boston.com/sports/fo.../brady_rule_steps_taken_to_protect_qbs_knees/
http://www.patriots.com/news/2009/03/27/debate-friday-tom-brady-rule

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2010/12/...son-palmers-knee-injury-as-example-for-league

The Palmer rule is about going at the knees or lunging from the a standing position. Brady rule applies even to a player on ground going for lower legs, not just knees! After Brady got injured, no lower leg hits on QB, unless its Cam Newton.

It was a CALCIFICATION of the already implemented rule,
" the league's Competition Committee adopted a clarification of the CURRENT RULE on hits to a quarterback in the knee area or below. The clarification specifically prohibits a defender on the ground who hasn't been blocked or fouled directly into the quarterback from lunging or diving at the quarterback's lower leg"
So the rule was already in effect, it's kinda splitting hairs at this point..

 

[Childs]

It was a CALCIFICATION of the already implemented rule,
" the league's Competition Committee adopted a clarification of the CURRENT RULE on hits to a quarterback in the knee area or below. The clarification specifically prohibits a defender on the ground who hasn't been blocked or fouled directly into the quarterback from lunging or diving at the quarterback's lower leg"
So the rule was already in effect, it's kinda splitting hairs at this point..

I just said no more low hits after Brady got injured. There is a distinction between the Palmer and Brady rules, which is why I said Brady rule, as the Brady rule makes it just about impossible to hit the QB low in the pocket unblocked. Its not even really worth continuing to discuss, because as you said, its splitting hairs.

I actually want a Carr rule. No more swinging twisting rugby style tackles on QBs in the pocket. Unfortunately the only Raider related rules are a reaction to something that benefited the Raiders, and to make sure it never happens again.

 

[BUTCH1]

Man....I like, totally hate to ruin football with politics, and I KNOW you guys have been dealing with this for a week, but lol @ the shameless Trump-supporting Patriots:

http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/bill-maher-tom-brady-patriots-video-watch-1201978292/

:sneaky:

now I kinda feel dirty for finding joy in the schadenfreude of the Patriots vs Goodell last week.

There are now seven Patriot players who WILL NOT go to the white house when the team goes to visit. I thought Brady handled the Goodell situation with total class, reached out his hand for a long hand-shake and basically implied "I'm over it." He did his talking on the field with a record-shattering performance in the most epic comeback ever. Why he and Bill B like Trump is unknown to me but really, who gives a shit?. Everyone has a right to an opinion and the man, (Trump) won the election. All of the New England states went with Clinton anyway so their "support" of Trump amounted to zilch. I'm still pissed that someone stole Brady's game jersey out of his bag, I think he wanted to donate to the NFL hall of fame

 

[BUTCH1]

I just said no more low hits after Brady got injured. There is a distinction between the Palmer and Brady rules, which is why I said Brady rule, as the Brady rule makes it just about impossible to hit the QB low in the pocket unblocked. Its not even really worth continuing to discuss, because as you said, its splitting hairs.

I actually want a Carr rule. No more swinging twisting rugby style tackles on QBs in the pocket. Unfortunately the only Raider related rules are a reaction to something that benefited the Raiders, and to make sure it never happens again.

Yea, I felt bad for Raider fans after that happened, they've waited a long time for the team to become a viable contender and last season that actually happened, to see the QB get taken out like that at the end of the season sucked.

 

[zinfamous]

There are now seven Patriot players who WILL NOT go to the white house when the team goes to visit. I thought Brady handled the Goodell situation with total class, reached out his hand for a long hand-shake and basically implied "I'm over it." He did his talking on the field with a record-shattering performance in the most epic comeback ever. Why he and Bill B like Trump is unknown to me but really, who gives a shit?. Everyone has a right to an opinion and the man, (Trump) won the election. All of the New England states went with Clinton anyway so their "support" of Trump amounted to zilch. I'm still pissed that someone stole Brady's game jersey out of his bag, I think he wanted to donate to the NFL hall of fame

well, do you think there might be ~100k HARDCORE Pats fans living within PA, MI, WI altogether? :hmm:

Hey Man, I'm just saying!

 

[Mai72]

Is Brady the greatest?

I think so, but in football it takes the whole team. Look at Dan Fouts. Great quarterback, but he's never been to the Superbowl. Also, the Chargers had a horrible defense. Dan would put up unbelievable numbers; 450 yards passing, 5 TD passes, etc. Would run the score up to 40 and would still lose the game by 5. He threw a ton of interceptions because he didn't have a choice. The Chargers running game was mediocre at best. He had a great wide receiver in Winslow. Not many options.

Could you stick a guy like Fouts in the Patriots lineup and duplicate the same success that Brady has had in the last decade? Maybe, but probably not. Brady is better than 99% of the quarterbacks that ever played the game. With the exception of Montana. Still. It takes everybody to make Brady great. That's something Dan never had.

 

[BUTCH1]

Houston PD values Brady's missing game-worn jersey @500K...IMHO this was a team employee who already had a wealthy buyer at hand, no way something like this could go on Ebay. The EXACT same thing happened after SB 49 so you'd think Brady would have handed it to someone he knew well and trusted while he grabbed a shower. I doubt the sleazebag that stole it got anywhere near what it was really worth and just wanted a quick $100K. Unless they force employees to take a polygraph, (which is not legal IIRC) that's a gonner.http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...wl-jersey-valued-500000-houston-police-report