Supreme Court Decides South Dakota v. Wayfair - Enjoy paying your sales tax

Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,777
146
Goodbye Quill v. North Dakota it was nice while you were there.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-retailers-to-collect-sales-tax-idUSKBN1JH23B
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - States have broad authority to force online retailers to collect potentially billions of dollars worth of sales taxes, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled on Thursday, siding against e-commerce companies in their high-profile fight with South Dakota.

The justices, in a 5-4 ruling against Wayfair Inc, Overstock.com Inc and Newegg Inc, overturned a 1992 Supreme Court precedent that had barred states from requiring businesses with no “physical presence” in that state, like out-of-state online retailers, to collect sales taxes.

The ruling opens the door to a new revenue stream to fill state coffers - up to $13 billion annually, according to a federal report - while imperiling a competitive advantage that e-commerce companies had over brick-and-mortar rivals that already must collect sales tax.

Shares of online retailers fell sharply following the ruling, with Wayfair down 3.8 percent, Overstock off 2.1 percent and Etsy Inc shares off 4.4 percent. Amazon.com Inc shares fell as much as 1.9 percent before paring losses. Amazon was among the biggest drags on the benchmark S&P 500 stock index.

The court, in a ruling authored by conservative Justice Anthony Kennedy, revived a 2016 South Dakota law that required larger out-of-state e-commerce companies to collect sales tax, a mandate that the online retailers fought in court

“Rejecting the physical presence rule is necessary to ensure that artificial competitive advantages are not created by this court’s precedents,” Kennedy said.

The win was welcomed by groups representing brick-and-mortar retailers and decried by e-commerce advocates.

The ruling puts an end to a legal regime that “distorts free markets and puts local brick and mortar stores at a competitive disadvantage with their online-only counterparts,” said Deborah White, general counsel of the Retail Industry Leaders’ Association.

Small online businesses will be the hardest hit, said Chris Cox, a lawyer for e-commerce industry group NetChoice.

“Consumers will quickly feel the negative effects as those businesses dry up or are forced into the arms of Internet giants,” he added.

South Dakota was backed by President Donald Trump’s administration in the case. The law could yet face legal challenges on other grounds, Kennedy noted.

The ruling is likely to lead other states to try to collect sales tax on purchases from out-of-state online businesses more aggressively. It also likely will lead to many consumers paying more at the online checkout. Forty-five of the 50 states impose sales taxes.

Most states would need to pass legislation before seeking to collect the additional taxes, although some have already enacted laws or regulations similar to South Dakota’s.

South Dakota has estimated that it could take in up to $50 million a year in additional revenue with these taxes being collected.

States like South Dakota that depend heavily on sales taxes for their revenue are likely to benefit most, with a predicted maximum revenue increase of around 3 percent, according to a Barclays research note.

The states that are likely to see the biggest percentage increase in revenue are Louisiana, Tennessee, South Dakota, Oklahoma and Alabama, according to the Barclays research.

Kennedy wrote that the 1992 precedent that affirmed that a physical presence is required - a case called Quill v. North Dakota - was “flawed on its own terms” and was especially problematic due to the rise of internet retail.

In the digital era, the costs of complying with different tax regimes “are largely unrelated to whether a company happens to have a physical presence in a state,” Kennedy wrote.

The ruling comes against a backdrop of Trump’s criticism of Amazon, the leading player in online retail, on the issue of taxes and other matters.

Amazon, which was not involved in the Supreme Court case, collects sales taxes on direct purchases on its site but does not typically collect taxes for merchandise sold on its platform by third-party venders, representing about half of total sales.

FYI - This is really going to hurt and screw over any small to medium size businesses that aren't able to keep up with the onslaught of laws and filings that they are going to demand.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Brick and Mortar are still going away even if they level the tax playing field.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,777
146
Brick and Mortar are still going away even if they level the tax playing field.

Yeah, but to be honest my main concern isn't brick and mortar... I really think this will bend over anyone that is a small company trying to grow.

Let me break down the complexities for you - there is roughly ~65,000+ jurisdictions (states, cities, counties, districts, metro transit authorities, etc..) in the US that have a sales tax in some way or another. Each one of those taxes products different, each one of them has different requirements for reporting the sales, etc... So expecting any small scale company to be able to handle this is insane.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,659
7,893
126
Yeah, but to be honest my main concern isn't brick and mortar... I really think this will bend over anyone that is a small company trying to grow.

Let me break down the complexities for you - there is roughly ~65,000+ jurisdictions (states, cities, counties, districts, metro transit authorities, etc..) in the US that have a sales tax in some way or another. Each one of those taxes products different, each one of them has different requirements for reporting the sales, etc... So expecting any small scale company to be able to handle this is insane.
An alternative federal tax for internet purchases would make sense. There'll be winners and losers, but it beats a blank. Add up all state sales taxes, and divide by 50. I should be running this country...
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,777
146
An alternative federal tax for internet purchases would make sense. There'll be winners and losers, but it beats a blank. Add up all state sales taxes, and divide by 50. I should be running this country...

Yeah, but if we did that myself and others would be out of a job We can't have that now can we?

Also, only 45 of 50 states have a sales tax. Certain states rely on property taxes, some on sales tax, some on state income tax.... most depend on some more than others... And then you have shit states like Illinois that has all 3.
 

KeithP

Diamond Member
Jun 15, 2000
5,660
198
106
Yeah, but to be honest my main concern isn't brick and mortar... I really think this will bend over anyone that is a small company trying to grow.

Let me break down the complexities for you - there is roughly ~65,000+ jurisdictions (states, cities, counties, districts, metro transit authorities, etc..) in the US that have a sales tax in some way or another. Each one of those taxes products different, each one of them has different requirements for reporting the sales, etc... So expecting any small scale company to be able to handle this is insane.

Don't most small companies use some sort of 3rd party payment processor? That would probably be the easiest way to handle it. Of course, payment processing companies will probably see some thinning/merging in their ranks but I don't think compliance will be that difficult.

The bigger issue is that this is another case where the SCOTUS has decided to become legislators. Just look at some of the Justices' comments. They are once again acting outside of their Constitution powers and everyone seems happy to let them do it.

-KeithP
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,425
8,388
126
Yeah, but to be honest my main concern isn't brick and mortar... I really think this will bend over anyone that is a small company trying to grow.

Let me break down the complexities for you - there is roughly ~65,000+ jurisdictions (states, cities, counties, districts, metro transit authorities, etc..) in the US that have a sales tax in some way or another. Each one of those taxes products different, each one of them has different requirements for reporting the sales, etc... So expecting any small scale company to be able to handle this is insane.

i don't expect small scale companies to handle it. i expect their payment processing systems to handle it, which already know each sales tax scheme because they're already collecting all TX taxes for anyone in TX, all NY taxes for anyone in NY, all CA taxes for anyone in CA, etc.

The bigger issue is that this is another case where the SCOTUS has decided to become legislators. Just look at some of the Justices' comments. They are once again acting outside of their Constitution powers and everyone seems happy to let them do it.

-KeithP
a) in a common law system judges make law. been that way for 1000 years. you'd think people would be used to it by now.
b) if you're concerned about legislating from the bench, this decision actually returns the power to congress and the states. it's the opposite of legislating from the bench. the quill decision was the supreme court stepping in when congress failed to act.
 
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Reactions: highland145

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,547
2,759
136
The other option will be sites refusing to ship to certain states or accept billing addresses in certain states.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,777
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Don't most small companies use some sort of 3rd party payment processor? That would probably be the easiest way to handle it. Of course, payment processing companies will probably see some thinning/merging in their ranks but I don't think compliance will be that difficult.

The bigger issue is that this is another case where the SCOTUS has decided to become legislators. Just look at some of the Justices' comments. They are once again acting outside of their Constitution powers and everyone seems happy to let them do it.

-KeithP

We will see as far as your comment on 3rd party payment processing. I mean, Amazon sellers - yes, I agree, nothing much will change... Well, the small business would probably have to file a shitload more returns though to report the tax. The vendor (Amazon) only collects the tax - the vendor still has to file the return.

But I fucking agree completely with your comment on SCOTUS. Last I checked, their job was to interpret the laws, not decide if they are outdated or not.
 

bbhaag

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2011
6,761
2,138
146
This ruling is fine with me. I own a small business and the no sales tax advantage that internet based companies have has killed sales in some of my departments. I have to pay the man his due so why shouldn't they have to as well?
To much paperwork you say well boo fucking who hire an accountant or CPA.
 
Reactions: highland145

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
Seems like we got screwed over in this deal. When I look at states, they normally require that you pay use tax on Internet and out-of-state purchases. (If the out-of-state purchase's tax is less than what you'd pay, you pay the difference.) The thing is... use tax is generally less than full sales tax, and for me, it's fairly considerable at 4% compared to 9%.

Also, I'm a bit mixed on this truly giving brick and mortar a competitive advantage. At least in my own personal experience, I've been looking more toward brick and mortar stores lately. Since Amazon doesn't offer same-day delivery for me, if I want something quickly, I have to go to the store. Frankly, the best thing that stores have done recently is having a decent inventory management and having that be relatively consumer facing. This means that you don't run into that situation where you wonder if your local Best Buy has any of those esoteric batteries in stock, or if they even carry them in the store or just on the website! What's also great is that some stores will even show you where they are in the store, which makes it even easier on you.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,659
7,893
126
I don't really give too many fucks about online sales tax. I do most of my purchasing locally, and only do online for items that are harder to find locally. I'm not gonna drive all over the state looking for esoteric products. A couple bucks in tax is still better than wasting my time and fuel sightseeing in traffic.

I'd like to see more "regressive" taxes, and get rid of property tax. It penalizes mindless consumerism. It would probably tank the economy, but the "economy" is just a massive pyramid scheme, and it's already starting to fall.
 

Fir

Senior member
Jan 15, 2010
484
194
116
Just be glad your state hasn't come after you with a sales tax audit! Here in MD many small businesses got hit with those in the mid 2000s. If you got one they'd randomly pick up to ten of YOUR clients and audit them too. All that stuff you bought on newegg.com over the years and never paid sales tax on? You're SUPPOSED to file that and PAY UP. Most don't and did not. Ditto for ebay, et al.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,659
7,893
126
Just be glad your state hasn't come after you with a sales tax audit! Here in MD many small businesses got hit with those in the mid 2000s. If you got one they'd randomly pick up to ten of YOUR clients and audit them too. All that stuff you bought on newegg.com over the years and never paid sales tax on? You're SUPPOSED to file that and PAY UP. Most don't and did not. Ditto for ebay, et al.
They'd hit the payday with me. HappyMeals for *everyone driving home from the audit.

*as long as the audit team is ≤3

:^D
 

Fir

Senior member
Jan 15, 2010
484
194
116
They'd hit the payday with me. HappyMeals for *everyone driving home from the audit.

*as long as the audit team is ≤3

:^D

That was Bob Ehrlich. He even had sting operations set up pulling over rental trucks coming back from Delaware.
 

who?

Platinum Member
Sep 1, 2012
2,327
42
91
Use tax is the same as sales tax here.
Keeping track of the taxes would be a good use for computers.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,551
5,960
136
The other option will be sites refusing to ship to certain states or accept billing addresses in certain states.
I doubt that. Lose a sale because you don't want to collect the sales tax that you're going to charge the customer anyway?
This ruling is fine with me. I own a small business and the no sales tax advantage that internet based companies have has killed sales in some of my departments. I have to pay the man his due so why shouldn't they have to as well?
To much paperwork you say well boo fucking who hire an accountant or CPA.
The amount of paperwork is already ridiculous. Federal/state/local/etc... I only use a CPA to file my corp taxes. I don't see this as the straw that broke the camel's back.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,777
146
This ruling is fine with me. I own a small business and the no sales tax advantage that internet based companies have has killed sales in some of my departments. I have to pay the man his due so why shouldn't they have to as well?
To much paperwork you say well boo fucking who hire an accountant or CPA.

Few things:

1) Imposing this will not make people come back to B&M as already stated. You aren't "losing" anything because no one would have gone to your store for a mere sales tax difference.
2) Too much paperwork? It's not just paperwork, it's compliance. Each jurisdiction has it's own rules of what is and is not taxable - and can change at any time. Each jurisdiction also has different requirements in how the tax is calculated, how the tax is rounded, the list goes on and on and on. It isn't as simple as your income tax return that you pay a CPA for.

Majority of CPAs and accountants have no clue how sales and use tax works by the way - because most are specialized for direct taxes, not indirect.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,777
146
Use tax is the same as sales tax here.
Keeping track of the taxes would be a good use for computers.

Yeah, and I'm one of those that are paid to implement that very software you're referring to. But guess what? It ain't cheap heh. Think millions. Part of the reason (as stated earlier) is how complex the laws and rules are that are always changing. The company has an entire task force that monitors all of these jurisdictions and releases patch updates to keep up with them all.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,551
5,960
136
Too much paperwork? It's not just paperwork, it's compliance. Each jurisdiction has it's own rules of what is and is not taxable - and can change at any time. Each jurisdiction also has different requirements in how the tax is calculated, how the tax is rounded, the list goes on and on and on. It isn't as simple as your income tax return that you pay a CPA for.
Sales tax isn't a part of my business but here's a list of crap I already have to deal with. The tax calculations/payments are doable. I think quickbooks can handle sales tax if that's what people use.

941
w2
w3
1099 misc, I, C
1096
state 1605, 1606, 1612
Maximum rate filing
Credit grantor filing
Lending license renewal
Supervised year end report
Agency license renewal
Individual insurance license renewal
FUTA/SUTA
SC new hire
Secretary of State renewal
e-verify
City license
and a few more that I'm forgetting.

I might need to go to 40%APR.
 
Nov 20, 2009
10,051
2,577
136
My state was already strongarming Amazon so I am not sure that my online buys, which Amazon probably accounts for 90%, is really going to change anytime soon.
 

Scarpozzi

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
26,389
1,778
126
Can't Quikbooks POS do this by now? There's got to be a relatively affordable national sales tax payment system that simply updates the table annually. It can't be that difficult....
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
96,181
15,776
126
Can't Quikbooks POS do this by now? There's got to be a relatively affordable national sales tax payment system that simply updates the table annually. It can't be that difficult....


We are talking county and city level shit, which changes all the time. Also, collecting is not the end, you have to remit and hope there is no audit.

The accounting is a fucking nightmare.
 
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Humpy

Diamond Member
Mar 3, 2011
4,463
596
126
We are talking county and city level shit, which changes all the time. Also, collecting is not the end, you have to remit and hope there is no audit.

The accounting is a fucking nightmare.

I say good luck to those counties and cities with enforcing their rules.

I imagine that, in the name of efficiency, states will enact a scheme to collect at the state level, take their cut, and distribute the revenue to local districts.
 
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