Supreme Court to hear case on global warming

[GeNome]

http://www.livescience.com/environment/060626_court_greenhouse.html

"WASHINGTON (AP)?The Supreme Court plunged on Monday into the acrimonious debate over global warming and whether the government should regulate "greenhouse'' gases, especially carbon dioxide from cars. The ruling could be one of the court's most important ever on the environment."

But this part I don't really get:

"Spurred by states in a pollution battle with the Bush administration, the court said it would decide whether the Environmental Protection Agency is required under the federal clean air law to treat carbon dioxide from automobiles as a pollutant harmful to health."

Since when is this an "if"? For some reason, I thought it was pretty well known that CO2 was harmful to your health. Maybe I'm wrong?

 

[Strk]

The Bush admin said it wasn't. That's where it came from.

 

[Todd33]

I exhale CO2, so it cannot be that dangerous to me.

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: Todd33
I exhale CO2, so it cannot be that dangerous to me.

Try exhaling into the same plastic bag you're inhaling from, heh. You'll die of CO2 poisoning a long time before you asphyxiate.

 

[Genx87]

Sounds like it could be a "states" rights issue?

Although reading the article it seems odd, if these states are so worried, why not pass their own laws dealing with emissions?

This could have lasting impacts on the power industry though. It will force the coal burning power plants to adhere to regulations that will increase costs that are passed onto the consumer. The same with cars.

 

[GeNome]

I'm not exactly sure why they don't pass laws for their states. Of course, it would be kind of redundant to live in Washington, where CO2 would be a "harmful pollutant" and then drive to Idaho where it wouldn't. Every little bit helps though, and I certainly wouldn't have a problem with them doing just that. It would be awesome if we could pass it nationally though.

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Sounds like it could be a "states" rights issue?

Although reading the article it seems odd, if these states are so worried, why not pass their own laws dealing with emissions?

This could have lasting impacts on the power industry though. It will force the coal burning power plants to adhere to regulations that will increase costs that are passed onto the consumer. The same with cars.

I do not see how it can be a state issue, the same way that someone smoking in a restaurant is not an individual issue. We're all in the same boat.

 

[Todd33]

Originally posted by: Meuge

Originally posted by: Todd33
I exhale CO2, so it cannot be that dangerous to me.

Try exhaling into the same plastic bag you're inhaling from, heh. You'll die of CO2 poisoning a long time before you asphyxiate.

You can say the same about O2, H2O, etc. Most things in high concentration will kill you.I'm not saying CO2 is good for the environment, but how is it poison?

 

[alchemize]

Plants love the stuff!

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: GeNome
I'm not exactly sure why they don't pass laws for their states. Of course, it would be kind of redundant to live in Washington, where CO2 would be a "harmful pollutant" and then drive to Idaho where it wouldn't. Every little bit helps though, and I certainly wouldn't have a problem with them doing just that. It would be awesome if we could pass it nationally though.

We do pass them in our own states.

I know there was recently an issue in CA and purchasing energy from out of state power plants that couldn't meet CA standards. The law (or proposed law; I'm not sure if it went through) required providers to meet CA standards.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: alchemize
Plants love the stuff!

Exactly the vegetables that are the Republican party contest it as a poison.

 

[Blastman]

Try exhaling into the same plastic bag you're inhaling from, heh. You'll die of CO2 poisoning a long time before you asphyxiate.

No. You will asphyxiate from lack of O2, not from CO2 poisoning.

Plants use CO2 to breathe and for photosynthesis, and it forms the whole basis of our food chain.

Trying to get CO2 regulated as a pollutant is just another ?liberal? enviro-wacko cause so politicians can over-regulate and tax just about any activity. They would be able to tax you for just breathing if CO2 is labeled and regulated as a pollutant.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

Lifted from the article:

Recently, Bush told reporters he views global warming as a serious problem and has "a plan to be able to deal with greenhouse gases'' short of regulating their use...

Like he had a plan for Iraq? Haha.

...It includes developing new technologies for cleaner burning coal, using alternative motor fuels such as ethanol as substitutes for gasoline and expanding nuclear power to produce electricity.

More E85 & nuclear power plants are a good idea for the short term. It's a good sign that even the most benighted neoconderthals are beginning to recognize this. However, how are we going to pay for developing new technologies (long term solutions) with our $6,000,000,000/month Iraq bill?

 

[Moonbeam]

I heard somewhere that Japan is going to pump CO2 under ground.

 

[Blastman]

CO2 is not a pollutant. It?s part of the natural composition of atmospheric gases that is essential to life.

The fizz in pop is CO2 gas ? !!!

That will be funny if CO2 is regulated as a pollutant. Pepsi and Coke will have to put warning labels on their pop ?

--- WARNING contains CO2, a highly regulated pollutant. Consuming excessive amounts can give you gas and warm the environment. Possibility that your brain will melt from global warming ? hahaha. :laugh:

Of course we have used car salesman politicians like Gore that are trying to sell this CO2 nonsense to the public.

 

[piasabird]

Most cars dont make much pollution. Burning leaves from one yard probably pollutes the air more than 100 cars. Barbeque grills are probably pretty bad also.

 

[Termagant]

Originally posted by: piasabird
Most cars dont make much pollution. Burning leaves from one yard probably pollutes the air more than 100 cars. Barbeque grills are probably pretty bad also.

I heard that mowing a typical lawn with a typical lawnmower releases more NOx or some other "pollution" gases than driving across the US in a car, because of catalytic converters and such.

 

[Horus]

Anything over 16PPM of CO2, and you start to get Brain Asphyxia. Hopefully it'll never get that bad.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: Strk

Originally posted by: GeNome
I'm not exactly sure why they don't pass laws for their states. Of course, it would be kind of redundant to live in Washington, where CO2 would be a "harmful pollutant" and then drive to Idaho where it wouldn't. Every little bit helps though, and I certainly wouldn't have a problem with them doing just that. It would be awesome if we could pass it nationally though.

We do pass them in our own states.

I know there was recently an issue in CA and purchasing energy from out of state power plants that couldn't meet CA standards. The law (or proposed law; I'm not sure if it went through) required providers to meet CA standards.

Once it crosses interstate boundries....it becomes a federal issue.

This is the direction that the states are approaching in their arguments. PA, for example, is claiming that NY is polluting it's citizens because of atmospheric conditions carrying the pollution south. PA has no authority to pass laws that restrict NY businesses.

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: Todd33
I exhale CO2, so it cannot be that dangerous to me.

Maybe you exhale it because its dangerous?

 

[Thump553]

I see that a few people here were solidly asleep during high school chemistry.

CO2 is not poisonous. CO (carbon monoxide) is because (as I recall)it bonds with your red blood cells preventing them from bonding with oxygen, causing suffocation.

EDIT-it sounds like the decision in this case will be a matter of statutory interpretation, whether carbon dioxide mets the definition of a pollutant under the particular statute(s). Wheter CO2 is poisonous or dangerous to humans in and of itself is quite possibly irrelevant. CO2 could easily be considered a pollutant under a "too much of a good thing" analysis.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: Termagant

Originally posted by: piasabird
Most cars dont make much pollution. Burning leaves from one yard probably pollutes the air more than 100 cars. Barbeque grills are probably pretty bad also.

I heard that mowing a typical lawn with a typical lawnmower releases more NOx or some other "pollution" gases than driving across the US in a car, because of catalytic converters and such.

Not to mention the inefficient engines that lawnmowers tend to use. 2-cycle engines are especially bad - they can expel unburned fuel due to the simpler nature of the engine.

Ok, so CO2 is not a poison. I guess it is technically an inert gas. So is helium. And if you want to commit suicide, inhale nothing but helium for a little while. No oxygen = death. So for those saying that inhaling CO2 will kill you, you're wrong. When you inhale and exhale from and to a plastic bag, soon the oxygen in the system (you and the bag) is metabolized. More CO2 happens to be present, but it will not be what kills you. Lack of oxygen will be the more immediate problem.
But it is one that can cause widespread climate changes, which is the reason it is being regulated.

CO2 could easily be considered a pollutant under a "too much of a good thing" analysis.

Agreed. Mercury pollution is regulated - it has immediate health impacts. Carbon dioxide is a concern because of eventual health impacts in the form of climate change.

 

[WelshBloke]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: Termagant

Originally posted by: piasabird
Most cars dont make much pollution. Burning leaves from one yard probably pollutes the air more than 100 cars. Barbeque grills are probably pretty bad also.

I heard that mowing a typical lawn with a typical lawnmower releases more NOx or some other "pollution" gases than driving across the US in a car, because of catalytic converters and such.

Not to mention the inefficient engines that lawnmowers tend to use. 2-cycle engines are especially bad - they can expel unburned fuel due to the simpler nature of the engine.

Ok, so CO2 is not a poison. I guess it is technically an inert gas. So is helium. And if you want to commit suicide, inhale nothing but helium for a little while. No oxygen = death. So for those saying that inhaling CO2 will kill you, you're wrong. When you inhale and exhale from and to a plastic bag, soon the oxygen in the system (you and the bag) is metabolized. More CO2 happens to be present, but it will not be what kills you. Lack of oxygen will be the more immediate problem.
But it is one that can cause widespread climate changes, which is the reason it is being regulated.

CO2 could easily be considered a pollutant under a "too much of a good thing" analysis.

Agreed. Mercury pollution is regulated - it has immediate health impacts. Carbon dioxide is a concern because of eventual health impacts in the form of climate change.

CO2 is certainly NOT an inert gas and it will kill you at elevated levels regardless of oxegen levels.
How do you think divers rebreathers work?

 

[zerocool1]

Originally posted by: piasabird
Most cars dont make much pollution. Burning leaves from one yard probably pollutes the air more than 100 cars. Barbeque grills are probably pretty bad also.

but its not just cars. and think about how many cars there are on the road today.

and its amount of CO2 that is released. CO2 isn't a bad thing, but too much is.

 

[Unheard]

Originally posted by: Horus
Anything over 16PPM of CO2, and you start to get Brain Asphyxia. Hopefully it'll never get that bad.

You might want to read up.

CO2 = Carbon Dioxide - The stuff you exhale
CO = Carbon Monoxide - The stuff that kills you

16PPM of CO2 is nothing. The air you breath averages 350PPM.
Source


Even 16PPM of CO isnt enough to bother most people.

CO 10 to 35 parts per million (ppm)
Marginal: This level could become problematic in some situations. Actions: Occupants should be advised of a potential health hazard to small children, elderly people and persons suffering from respiratory or heart problems. If the home has an attached garage, document CO levels in garage. Accept this level as normal for unvented appliances but not for vented appliances. If unvented appliances are in operation, recommend additional ventilation in the areas of operation. With ambient conditions in this range, analysts may continue testing to locate the CO source.
Source

So explain your post please.