Surface Book and Surface Pro 4

[Chiefcrowe]

Just announced. They look pretty nice!

http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en-us/devices/surface-book

http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en-us/devices/surface-pro-4

 

[Mushkins]

The most exciting thing from a business perspective (that they didn't touch on at all in the presentation) is the new dock!

They're moving to a universal dock model that's similar to the third party USB port replicators, but with the Surface charge/data connector cable.

Which means I can have SP 1, 2, 3, 4s, and Surface Books all deployed to users and not have to keep three different docking stations in inventory.

That's *huge* as far as making a business case to buy these things goes. Model-proprietary accessories are always a big red flag when it comes to major hardware deployments.

 

[Skott]

Back in early Summer I was thinking of getting a Pro 3 but held off when I heard Pro 4 would come out this October. Guess its time to start thinking what to get again. A Pro 4 would be nice.

 

[The Day Dreamer]

Finally something to give competition to Apple's Macbooks. All the advantage they had over lal laptops was 9-12 Hours of backup and 1.5 Kg weight but not anymore. I am looking forward to owning one of these bad boys in their improved versions.

 

[cboath]

I was going to order an SP4, but the release day is one business day late for me

I was going to use an overseas trip as an excuse to buy one, but i leave the 25th

Don't suppose there's a chance they'll be out prior to that?

Guess i'll be looking for a (hopefully discounted) SP3.

 

[jleves47]

I was thinking about getting the Surface Book, but a SP 4 with the same specs (i7, 8GB, 256GB) is almost $400 less and a pound lighter with the new keyboard.

I realize the Book has the dedicated GPU and PCI based SSD. But the Pro 4 may be the more useful option with it being lighter and having a kickstand.

Anyone thought this through any more than that?

 

[Face2Face]

I already have a SP 3 coming, but I think I'll grab the new type cover when they're released.

 

[Mushkins]

I already have a SP 3 coming, but I think I'll grab the new type cover when they're released.

I wonder if the new type cover will be compatible with older models. IIRC the SP3 accessories were SP3-only.

 

[Commodus]

I wonder if the new type cover will be compatible with older models. IIRC the SP3 accessories were SP3-only.

They've mentioned that the new cover works with Surface Pro 3 models. I wouldn't see much point if you already have a Type Cover, but you might as well get the new one if you're buying an SP3 or (for some reason) never bought the keyboard in the first place.

 

[I4AT]

The most exciting thing from a business perspective (that they didn't touch on at all in the presentation) is the new dock!

They're moving to a universal dock model that's similar to the third party USB port replicators, but with the Surface charge/data connector cable.

Which means I can have SP 1, 2, 3, 4s, and Surface Books all deployed to users and not have to keep three different docking stations in inventory.

That's *huge* as far as making a business case to buy these things goes. Model-proprietary accessories are always a big red flag when it comes to major hardware deployments.

I was kind of interested in the dock and wondering how it gave pass-through power. I was hoping through a secondary USB-C port so it can be used as a MacBook 12" or Chromebook Pixel dock as well. Are you sure it uses a Surface charge port to give pass-through power? (EDIT: Oh I see you're referring to the Surface dock, that's still highly proprietary... I was more interested in the Lumia dock)

Either way, though, kind of a moot point as it appears to only have USB 2.0 input which makes it worthless as a new-gen ultrabook dock. No USB 3.0 flash drive or external hard drive support is pretty lame for a 2015 docking accessory...

The $79 Apple Digital USB-C adapter only has HDMI out which means no 60hz 4K support, and a single USB 3.0 port is a bit limiting. It's been 6 months since that laptop was released and still no perfect dock exists for it.

I'm waiting on something with an internal 60w+ PSU, pass-through charging, at least two USB 3.0 A and C ports, HDMI, DisplayPort for 60hz 4K, and Ethernet.

Kinda surprising to see only the Lumia get USB-C. I was hoping the Surface 4/Book would have a type C port, it's the future and would mean quicker adoption of universal docks that would support all mobile devices.

They also made no mention of the digitizer tech, as far as I know, during their event, so I'm assuming the Surface 4/Book have the exact same N-Trig digitizer as the Surface 3 with zero hardware improvements? I don't consider the Surface 3 digitizer to be on par with Wacom, yet. Would have liked to hear that some type of hardware upgrade was made by N-Trig.

I currently use a Note 4 and a Fujitsu Lifebook T732 both Wacom "Penabled". I think the iPad Pro/Apple Pencil look amazing as far as stylus tech goes, miles beyond anything Wacom is currently doing. But I'm not gonna spend $1,000+ on an iOS device just for doodling, wish they would've introduced the Apple Pen in a MacBook or something with OSX so it can do real productivity work as well as creativity. If I'm gonna spend over a grand on a mobile device it better be able to serve as a primary work AND play machine.

All this new expensive hardware coming out, and all of it falls short in some way. Increased portability and extra power do nothing for me if we're going backwards in stylus tech, and improved stylus tech means nothing on a neutered operating system.

 

[quikah]

They also made no mention of the digitizer tech, as far as I know, during their event, so I'm assuming the Surface 4/Book have the exact same N-Trig digitizer as the Surface 3 with zero hardware improvements? I don't consider the Surface 3 digitizer to be on par with Wacom, yet. Would have liked to hear that some type of hardware upgrade was made by N-Trig.

MS bought N-Trig, so going to guess that is what they used. The Surface 3/Pro 3 has 256 levels of sensitivity. The new ones has 1024.

 

[hoihtah]

I've held out buying a SP3... but now SB looks too tempting.
I was thinking of spending around $1500... but may have to stretch my budget a bit more.

overall, I am so impressed with microsoft in what they are doing to get back in the game.

 

[TeknoBug]

If I had $2000 to spare, I'd get that Surface Book in a heartbeat!

Been thinking of getting the Surface 3 when price drops, but I think the Aspire Switch 11 with i3 4012Y that I came across is better for roughly the same price.

 

[khon]

The Surface Book looks cool, but I don't like it so much for a couple of reasons:

1. Significantly more expensive than the SP4

2. Keyboard part is passively cooled, so the discrete graphics will be severely thermally limited

3. The Tablet/Screen part is lighter than the SP4 in spite of being larger, to make that possible they must have significantly reduced the size of the battery. I know they claim 12h battery lifetime, but that is including the battery in the keyboard, the tablet alone will probably be around half that.

4. Lid doesn't close all the way in laptop mode, which could be quite annoying

So if I do get one of these, I think it will be the SP4.

 

[Face2Face]

looks cool, but I don't like it so much for a couple of reasons:

2. Keyboard part is passively cooled, so the discrete graphics will be severely thermally limited

3. The Tablet/Screen part is lighter than the SP4 in spite of being larger, to make that possible they must have significantly reduced the size of the battery. I know they claim 12h battery lifetime, but that is including the battery in the keyboard, the tablet alone will probably be around half that. The Tablet alone is claimed to have 3 hours of battery life

Just wanted to clarify the GPU cooling - The NVIDIA GPU is actively cooled. The ventilation is facing towards the front of the screen. It's hard to see in the picture below, but it's there.

 

[gorcorps]

I really wish they'd make a Surface Book style keyboard for the Surface Pro. It doesn't need the GPU, it could function exactly like the current Surface keyboards but I'd really like a self supporting hinge option. It's still awkward to use my Surface Pro 3 on the couch with the kickstand.

 

[khon]

Just wanted to clarify the GPU cooling - The NVIDIA GPU is actively cooled. The ventilation is facing towards the front of the screen. It's hard to see in the picture below, but it's there.

Thanks for the info, I had missed that.

 

[giantpandaman2]

I went down to the Microsoft Store and checked them both out. Here are my impressions:

The new typecover is darn good. As a touch typist, I was able to type at full speed on it when it's set on a stable, hard surface like a table or countertop. Not bad since I usually type on a mechanical keyboard (desktop) and an old school Thinkpad X220T. Seems like the thumbprint one might still be a bit buggy. While i was there it wouldn't initialize after a few detachments. A reboot cleared it up.

Where the SP4 and keyboard combo still doesn't work well is on your lap. It's doable but not comfortable.

The Surfacebook is as solid as advertised. The keyboard has zero flex and feels smooth. The clipboard is very light.

Costwise the SB is only $150 or so more dollars than the SP4 when comparably equipped. (Typecover, 8GB Ram, 128GB SSD.) The SP4 was tempting, but I chose to preorder the SB. I still might change my mind (no money down etc.) but I'm probably going to stick with the SB. I picked the lowest end model. I've got my desktop for power use and I prefer battery life for my portables. With USB3 and full sized SD I'm not worried about storage. I plan on picking up a 256GB SDHC card.

A note on pens. The new pen is much more comfortable to use than the stylus on my X220T. Its edge to edge detection is better and it feels very smooth on glass. I'm actually excited about using the pen for editing, notes, and productivity.

 

[The Day Dreamer]

Just wanted to clarify the GPU cooling - The NVIDIA GPU is actively cooled. The ventilation is facing towards the front of the screen. It's hard to see in the picture below, but it's there.

Pure Elegance.

 

[giantpandaman2]

I really wish they'd make a Surface Book style keyboard for the Surface Pro. It doesn't need the GPU, it could function exactly like the current Surface keyboards but I'd really like a self supporting hinge option. It's still awkward to use my Surface Pro 3 on the couch with the kickstand.

They do...it's the base configuration for the Surface Book. No discrete GPU.

 

[khon]

Just saw the prices for memory/storage on the new Lenovo Yoga 900, which makes the Surface Book/SP4 look ridiculous:

Lenovo Yoga 900:
256GB/8GB -> 512GB/16GB costs $200

Surface Pro 4/Surface book
256GB/8GB -> 512GB/16GB costs $600

The exact same thing costs 3 times as much on the Surface devices ...

And the Surface Book is actually thicker and heavier than the Lenovo device, so this is not a question of form factor, Microsoft is just blatantly pricegouging.

 

[quikah]

Just saw the prices for memory/storage on the new Lenovo Yoga 900, which makes the Surface Book/SP4 look ridiculous:

Lenovo Yoga 900:
256GB/8GB -> 512GB/16GB costs $200

Surface Pro 4/Surface book
256GB/8GB -> 512GB/16GB costs $600

The exact same thing costs 3 times as much on the Surface devices ...

And the Surface Book is actually thicker and heavier than the Lenovo device, so this is not a question of form factor, Microsoft is just blatantly pricegouging.

Not to excuse the price, but I believe the Surfacebook uses PCIe SSD while the Lenovo is SATA SSD.

 

[amyklai]

Not to excuse the price, but I believe the Surfacebook uses PCIe SSD while the Lenovo is SATA SSD.

Yeah, but does that really make much of a difference for a typical notebook usage workload?


My guess is that Microsoft is trying to push the notebook / tablet market into a direction that aligns with Windows 10 while simultaneously not stepping onto the OEM's toes too much.

So they creatied some interesting high-quality device, released them with a big show but made them a bit too expensive so they're not much of a threat to the OEMs.

 

[gus6464]

The Surface book uses a Samsung NVMe SSD. The Lenovo is not in the same league when it comes to SSD speed when it comes to the Surface Book.

 

[giantpandaman2]

And the Surface Book is actually thicker and heavier than the Lenovo device, so this is not a question of form factor, Microsoft is just blatantly pricegouging.

It's not possible to price gouge on something that's non-essential. People always use the term wrong which dilutes its actual meaning when people are really doing a criminal act.

Yeah, the upgrade prices are pretty crazy though. MS is taking a page out of Apple's playbook. (An annoying page too!)

The Yoga 900, while a pretty sweet computer, is not the same as the Surface Book. No separate tablet, flimsier case, no pen. Like the Toshiba Radius and the Dell XPS series, there are plenty of excellent laptops that are much better values than the Surface Book. MS really isn't interested in targeting value users with its Surface line. It never has. It's a halo product for the Windows ecosystem designed to draw eyeballs from the media and mainstream culture and dollars from high end (price-wise) users.