Surface Pro 3 thread - Info, thoughts, opinions

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rituraj

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Nov 10, 2012
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Something, that many would not see right away - given many on hands reviews as one from Anandtech being just typing journalists. A comment I have seen, is a proper review would be had in the hands of designers, artists, and engineers. People that outright would create and use the device in full, orchestrating that entirety of past and present software that is capable, with hardware and form to match.

Agreed. A journalist essentially needs to publish whatever they write in digital form and for that the keyboard and mouse are best suited for them. In one line, Journalists will never exactly NEED a surface pro and its features. They will never stop complaining how this is heavier than a proper tablet or how it is not comfortable in the lap. On the other hand a science or engineering student, an engineer, scientist or artist or or anyone with the requirement of pen and pencil will find this a blessing. And these bunch of people always have an expensive laptop like a rMBP or a thinkpad or a gaming notebook with them, so price is not a concern for those who can actually understand the value of the features and really need them.

I have seen many senior professors (all of them 50+) resorting to old school transparent slides while demonstrating complex engineering problems just because making a diagram like that will take hours in power-point. These are the people who would love to have a solution like this. I think Microsoft has targeted the right group of people with this device but is not directly demonstrating it to them. Not many professionals follow electronic technology in the internet as we do. And I can bet, Not even 10% of the people who actually need this device know it exists. The publicity and advertising should not be in the web alone, but should also be at the ground level, at schools, universities, animation studios and industries. The advertisements should not pop out in e-shopping sites or tech news sites alone, but at science and engineering related websites, tech journal websites (if it is allowed at all) etc. Not sure if it is feasible or not, but for a company the size of Microsoft, it is certainly affordable.

No matter how much they try to push this to the masses, they cannot deny the fact that it's not for the masses.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
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Oct 28, 1999
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I've started working in a university setting with a bunch of doctors/faculty of various specialties and I've seen at least 4 surface pro's running around in the last week. It's nice conversation starter and every one of them are amp'ed for the Surface3 to be released.

The biggest downfall of the device isn't really the device, or MS fault directly. But many, many applications/vendors have zero support or timelines to support Win8/Modern interfaces. There's mountains of legacy applications that run like crap/if at all under Win8 & IE9+.
 
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rituraj

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Nov 10, 2012
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That's good to know.. Anyone I have shown a surface pro to (pictures and videos of course), also gets really impressed with its capabilities. If MS launches it in my country, they'd owe me some money.:biggrin:

Too bad they are not making a global launch any time soon (or ever).
 

Roland00Address

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Dec 17, 2008
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So I am curious why can't they make a very nice keyboard dock? Something that can be "heavy" and have lots of connections. I am talking like add a battery there that recharges the tablet, I am talking keyboard, 4 usb 3 ports (it works as a hub and reroutes the usb from the laptop), full size hdmi, mini displayport and full size displayport (only 1 video works at a time, you are just rerouting the video out), audio in and out. This dock weight will be about 2 lbs (907 grams) and will be heavier than the tablet weight, and it will have a hinge that will allow the tablet to have an angle that is 135 degrees with the ground or less.

Pretty much this will be everything a "docking station" has but in a smaller form factor (it will lack wired ethernet). It will double as a keyboard dock. You can sell this for an outrageous price like $200. To put this in comparison microsoft is already selling the surface pro 2 docking for $200 and the surface pro 2 battery keyboard for $200.

It will not be as light or thin as an ultrabook, but you don't need it to be. We are still talking a light laptop even with the dock, but you will have so much more capabilities, and you do not need to take the dock everywhere with you, often you will just undock and use the tablet.

Been running Diablo 3 on mine all day. simply amazing device. I will upgrade to i7 when released. not because of bad grafix, more for AutoCAD.

I am curious on what type of frame rate you are getting with diablo 3, and what resolution and settings you are using.
 
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Imaginer

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Oct 15, 1999
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So I am curious why can't they make a very nice keyboard dock? Something that can be "heavy" and have lots of connections. I am talking like add a battery there that recharges the tablet, I am talking keyboard, 4 usb 3 ports (it works as a hub and reroutes the usb from the laptop), full size hdmi, mini displayport and full size displayport (only 1 video works at a time, you are just rerouting the video out), audio in and out. This dock weight will be about 2 lbs (907 grams) and will be heavier than the tablet weight, and it will have a hinge that will allow the tablet to have an angle that is 135 degrees with the ground or less.

Pretty much this will be everything a "docking station" has but in a smaller form factor (it will lack wired ethernet). It will double as a keyboard dock. You can sell this for an outrageous price like $200. To put this in comparison microsoft is already selling the surface pro 2 docking for $200 and the surface pro 2 battery keyboard for $200.

It will not be as light or thin as an ultrabook, but you don't need it to be. We are still talking a light laptop even with the dock, but you will have so much more capabilities, and you do not need to take the dock everywhere with you, often you will just undock and use the tablet.



I am curious on what type of frame rate you are getting with diablo 3, and what resolution and settings you are using.

About the dock solution, Lenovo's Thinkpad 10, a 16x10 aspect device would suit that bill for what you described. It maybe heavier with a laptop keyboard dock though and the dock doesn't allow full hinging back of the heavier dock.

http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/tablets...d/thinkpad-10/

Another now available option, is the Thinkpad Yoga. More laptop areas of handling but the folding back keyboard convertibility of a cover system. Heavier, but still viable for a more laptop aspect and side tablet pen duties.

http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops...oga/#customize

Personally, I like the type cover 'blades' system, but other OEM solutions would fill other's needs if able while having some flexibility in mobility. This is how I definitely feel that Microsoft is intending, set the bar with a good product, but allow OEMs to fill in solutions they can't from a sourcing, product line, manufacture, or logistical standpoint, while still keeping business, consumer, and professional software workings and standards in Windows in computing work.

Full sized ports aren't much an issue as to have some of them will now border to being a more laptop function. Adapters and cables are readily available as long as the display out adheres to the Displayport or HDMI standard (and either WiDi or Miracast for wireless projection to an easily hooked receiver). Looking at the Surface Pro 3, you can already tell they are at the limits of thickness with the full sized USB port.
 
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gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
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So I am curious why can't they make a very nice keyboard dock? Something that can be "heavy" and have lots of connections. I am talking like add a battery there that recharges the tablet, I am talking keyboard, 4 usb 3 ports (it works as a hub and reroutes the usb from the laptop), full size hdmi, mini displayport and full size displayport (only 1 video works at a time, you are just rerouting the video out), audio in and out. This dock weight will be about 2 lbs (907 grams) and will be heavier than the tablet weight, and it will have a hinge that will allow the tablet to have an angle that is 135 degrees with the ground or less.

Pretty much this will be everything a "docking station" has but in a smaller form factor (it will lack wired ethernet). It will double as a keyboard dock. You can sell this for an outrageous price like $200. To put this in comparison microsoft is already selling the surface pro 2 docking for $200 and the surface pro 2 battery keyboard for $200.

It will not be as light or thin as an ultrabook, but you don't need it to be. We are still talking a light laptop even with the dock, but you will have so much more capabilities, and you do not need to take the dock everywhere with you, often you will just undock and use the tablet.

I want a nice keyboard dock too. You're kidding yourself if you think it would be the same price as the power keyboard with so much more packed into it though. With all the stuff you outlined it would be $3-400
 

Roland00Address

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Dec 17, 2008
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I want a nice keyboard dock too. You're kidding yourself if you think it would be the same price as the power keyboard with so much more packed into it though. With all the stuff you outlined it would be $3-400
I do not think the price will be out of line consider the tablet will do almost all the thinking and you are just rerouting and splitting ports.
  • The mini displayport and displayport will be just rerouting the port and thus is just cheap cabling less than a dollar.
  • Same thing with the USB 3 hub once again just splitting the port, now with the usb 3 it will need to also get power but that is easy to get, just tie the power delivery to the internal battery of the dock or the tablet.
  • A passive mini displayport to hdmi adapter will be needed for the hdmi, but once again this is a cheap cost less than 7 dollars for an external passive mini displayport to hdmi for a retail part so it will be much cheaper for a volume part.
  • Same thing for the audio ports
  • Keyboard cost
  • The most expensive thing will be the battery. But the battery will not be nowhere near as thin as the power cover for the surface 2. Batteries cost a lot more when you make them thin and efficient and we are not caring as much about thinness and weight for we want to add weight to the dock.
Are you seriously trying to tell me that I can buy a $200 dollar brand new acer chromebook, which has
  • A haswell cpu
  • A lcd screen
  • A 39 watt hour battery (the power cover keyboard for surface pro has a 30 watt hour battery)
  • Ram
  • Ssd
  • A real motherboard
  • Wifi, Bluetooth
  • Webcam
  • Etc
Yet a manufacturer can't make a profitable keyboard dock that has less components and those components are a lot cheaper to make, and then sell it for $199?
 

Roland00Address

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Dec 17, 2008
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Responding to Imaginer's first points

As for other devices, I want something with a big screen as well as light while a tablet thus taking off the 10" Lenovo, and the Lenovo Yoga. The only way to keep it sub 2 lbs just for the tablet is some form of dockable. There is a big difference between 2lbs and 3lbs when you use something as a tablet..

And while you may use a tablet the majority of the time, sometimes you want to type on your lap instead of a desk, that is what the keyboard dock is for. When you are typing on your lap you do not care about the weight at least for me. Weight does not matter that much if you are using the tablet not as a tablet but as a laptop.

And it should not cost near 2 grand to get all this (like some of the Lenovo Thinkpad business solutions cost). Especially since in 18 months this device will be behind the times, and 3 years or less this device will be obsolete.

Personally, I like the type cover 'blades' system, but other OEM solutions would fill other's needs if able while having some flexibility in mobility. This is how I definitely feel that Microsoft is intending, set the bar with a good product, but allow OEMs to fill in solutions they can't from a sourcing, product line, manufacture, or logistical standpoint, while still keeping business, consumer, and professional software workings and standards in Windows in computing work.

If the idea is to keep the OEMs happy start allowing OEMs to make surface branded accessories such as the keyboard dock. They will jump at the chance to do so. Simple allow Surface Keyboard Dock manufactured by Toshiba or Acer. The only problem is you have to allow the engineering team to think ahead and design the device so that they can reroute all that power, usb, and video down near the bottom of the tablet. This is not hard to do but it takes time and engineering manpower.

And I think the surface pro 3 is a marvel of engineering. One reason why I am so hard on it, is that it is near perfect and with a few more generations I think it will be perfect (perfect from an engineering perspective not a theological one). Things such as USB 3.1 Type C which will eventually move all usb to a port roughly the size of micro usb/apple's lighting and it will be reversible and deliver power will dramatically make a change on what Microsoft is able to do. Same thing with Broadwell and the future Intel Chips where you get more cpu power but are much more flexible with thermal design and power consumption. It is a marvel what the Surface team has done with the 3 as well as the previous teams have done with the 1 and 2. No one has made a device relatively similar to the surface, or if they have made similar devices there are many pitfalls and thus those other devices are not superior devices.
 

Imaginer

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I've started working in a university setting with a bunch of doctors/faculty of various specialties and I've seen at least 4 surface pro's running around in the last week. It's nice conversation starter and every one of them are amp'ed for the Surface3 to be released.

The biggest downfall of the device isn't really the device, or MS fault directly. But many, many applications/vendors have zero support or timelines to support Win8/Modern interfaces. There's mountains of legacy applications that run like crap/if at all under Win8 & IE9+.

I can say this right now, Inventor Fusion (one of the software components of the Autodesk suite I use) doesn't work period. Under Windows 7 it works fine.

Other than that, it is definitely getting other software parties to come up with a fix. Other than that for me, other software works without a problem (and for the better, I can decently use Mudbox on the spur of the moment creation).

As far as my response to Roland00Address's comment, ways to go about a detachable dock while keeping that laptop mentality (without the kickstand for rear support), solely relying on that contact moment at the "hinge" would require immense tradeoffs - one I have seen that does bridge it decently but still has it's downfalls is the very Yoga named lines (either the Thinkpad or just plain Yoga).

Since having my cover, I rarely use the device standalone (even in tablet mode, it is simply flipped back without any other care and flipped back very quickly like a notebook cover). I have had reasons why I never picked up a swivel hinge tablet PC, because it is a swivel hinge - a single point of failure given enough deployment.

Hence, when docks are first done (by ASUS and their Transformers or the Samsung Smart PC Pro lines) they are in short still relying on mechanical advantages for locking, keeping strength and "limited" hinging like a laptop, and have no need of a kickstand rear support base - but at the same time it is mechanical - thus after wear, it might as well be sent in for repair like a borked keyboard or screen.

Thus, why I do not mind when actually using my Surface Pro 2 (and Pro 1) is that I really started not use the "laptop" paradigm - in my lap at all. most if not all my deployments involve the device flat on the lap, table, etc. My usage sees limited "laptop" like propped angles (the one of the exceptions is this one, typing this post out - but that is because I am laying on my side and typing this out, and not really using my pen).

I also championed for the magnetic connector to be opened for other manufacturers to start peripherals (where is Project Remix going anyways?). Hell, a secondary touch screen would bring the device in another full circle in line with Microsoft's Courier concept not too far back. If anything, with the digitizer and touch layer as fine as it is and with the ways of shape recognizing palm rejection, it is also more in line with the development of the now PixelSense (formerly the original Surface naming of a completely different device).

But, I merely throw out suggestions for those wanting such - as I do not expect Microsoft to fully cater and deliver in full (it would be straining much like on Apple's levels for demanding supply - and not as satisfactory given variety of requirements). Or for that matter, more cohesive software system and UI (Windows 8, may have the desktop and Modern areas distinct, but they both still play well together and are more defined than Android) that is not on the levels of Android. These devices lack in areas of more software performance and compatibility and interoperability issues (another reason why I never wanted to waste time and money on those devices - as they do not offer anything significant computing wise, well I did have a Kindle Fire but it did show its limitations greatly and it is a single purpose viewing device...).

I also would like the blades cover system to be open, so that OTHER OEMs can take advantage of Microsoft's accessories (prior if form footprint is adhered to). If Wacom improves their digitizers for another go around with a much better (if not same or better screen than the Surface Pro lines) along with their bezel side buttons with a Cintiq Companion 2, then it is more options to consider.

I have read the AMA Reddit from Panos's team on the Surface Pro 3 - and amongst them is a reason why N-Trig is considered over Wacom, with very good reasons. I do have one caveat against the N-Trig but it cannot be helped in that the pen has a battery.

I would like to test one in store. I would appreciate the 3:2 form, as I do find myself limited more on height over width for some applications with a sole window for creation. Snapping apps to the side doesn't bother much though, but possibly under a 3:2, it maybe of a concern of not being able to have my calculator at my sides or a reference material as well if I used a 3:2.

Other two cents I have to offer (keep the change).
 
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rituraj

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I hope Microsoft pays attention to all these discussions where everyone is asking and suggesting for a dock. And I think they really are following the user community very carefully, given the changes they brought to the SP3 that everybody wanted. Yes, the type cover has the extreme convenience of just flipping it around to the back and the extreme lightness, but the keyboard dock would make this device the ultimate solution to everyone's problems. And yeah.. The type cover should come included and the dock optional. That was the only issue that was not addressed in this version.
 

Commodus

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Oct 9, 2004
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Agreed. A journalist essentially needs to publish whatever they write in digital form and for that the keyboard and mouse are best suited for them. In one line, Journalists will never exactly NEED a surface pro and its features. They will never stop complaining how this is heavier than a proper tablet or how it is not comfortable in the lap. On the other hand a science or engineering student, an engineer, scientist or artist or or anyone with the requirement of pen and pencil will find this a blessing. And these bunch of people always have an expensive laptop like a rMBP or a thinkpad or a gaming notebook with them, so price is not a concern for those who can actually understand the value of the features and really need them.

I have seen many senior professors (all of them 50+) resorting to old school transparent slides while demonstrating complex engineering problems just because making a diagram like that will take hours in power-point. These are the people who would love to have a solution like this. I think Microsoft has targeted the right group of people with this device but is not directly demonstrating it to them. Not many professionals follow electronic technology in the internet as we do. And I can bet, Not even 10% of the people who actually need this device know it exists. The publicity and advertising should not be in the web alone, but should also be at the ground level, at schools, universities, animation studios and industries. The advertisements should not pop out in e-shopping sites or tech news sites alone, but at science and engineering related websites, tech journal websites (if it is allowed at all) etc. Not sure if it is feasible or not, but for a company the size of Microsoft, it is certainly affordable.

No matter how much they try to push this to the masses, they cannot deny the fact that it's not for the masses.

Yeah, Microsoft arguably made a mistake by wearing its Apple envy on its sleeve and pitching the Pro 3 as a general-purpose device that would replace a tablet-plus-laptop combo (or specifically, iPad-plus-MacBook combo) for many people. And if you watched the presentation, it made a hard, hard sell to journalists. If you make them part of the target market, they're going to judge accordingly.

The truth is, many of the people who have both a tablet and a laptop... are better off having both a tablet and a laptop. They may like that their tablet is smaller and easier to carry than a Surface, or that their laptop is bigger. The Pro 3 is most appealing to someone for whom two separate devices is a genuinely big hassle, or who really values pen input.

To some extent, this is the new Microsoft trying to reconcile itself with the old one. It's aware that it's no longer the center of the computing universe and that it has to do something truly special to stand out. However, it's still dealing with Gates' pen obsession (believing that a niche control method is relevant to everyone) and Ballmer's "Windows automatically makes everything better" mentality (trying to put Windows in areas where it doesn't fit well, like home-use tablets). If I were in charge of the Surface line, I'd make the keyboard standard and the pen optional, and focus the marketing accordingly.
 

Imaginer

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Oct 15, 1999
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Yeah, Microsoft arguably made a mistake by wearing its Apple envy on its sleeve and pitching the Pro 3 as a general-purpose device that would replace a tablet-plus-laptop combo (or specifically, iPad-plus-MacBook combo) for many people.

The truth is, many of the people who have both a tablet and a laptop... are better off having both a tablet and a laptop.

It very well CAN be in my opinion, judging the price of both a separate iPad and Macbook Air. The trackpad on the Air is good for its class, but the touchscreen turned trackpad at will of software makes it just as good if not better in area of dragging space. The only ones that are adverse against it, is ones that already have strict iPad only apps that cannot work anywhere else.

Otherwise, I even think that the Surface Pro lines can replace the two, and given the Modern side of things, give much leisure if not more so as a typical strict touch tablet only device (given small caveats for sure). It can do such - especially now since the price for two separate devices to handle and carry and the price of interoperability is down right worth it alone.

There are many people I see with papers sprawled about, books sprawled about, and a laptop sitting there amongst them taking up space, papers each having hand written notes or diagrams - some may call this a niche - but it is much more needed than one perceives the market as such. Even more so of passing back the laptop screen instead of the device flat for collaboration (going back to the ORIGINAL Surface concept).

Market it as such, and the consumers will come (even those that are ideal for the Surface Pro like devices).

And there should be no problem reselling one's own Apple devices to make the switch - software pending on iPad - but internet browsing for many websites that offer app options and modern apps combined (and with possible growing worthwile software additions - both desktop and modern areas) would make the app issue not relevant. To add to that, leveraging desktop applications - including games like a laptop.

However, it's still dealing with Gates' pen obsession

I like that tool, the pen. It is still needed always much like an unhindered cursor on a desktop of windows at times (or a pen for such). Jobs did a disservice by completely ignoring that aspect - and in general tossed aside the other aspects of slate/tablet computing in my opinion.

Not many times I can type with two hands, while holding the device, fast - the pen comes in as faster and much more flexible for notes without a typical table or desk (hence I like the Surface Pro's evolving weight reduction (with the Pro 3 but do not mind the Pro 2).

Even thumb typing is slow (on any tablet). One hand typing, holding a laptop serving tray style isn't ideal either.
 

Commodus

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Oct 9, 2004
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It very well CAN be in my opinion, judging the price of both a separate iPad and Macbook Air. The trackpad on the Air is good for its class, but the touchscreen turned trackpad at will of software makes it just as good if not better in area of dragging space. The only ones that are adverse against it, is ones that already have strict iPad only apps that cannot work anywhere else.

Otherwise, I even think that the Surface Pro lines can replace the two, and given the Modern side of things, give much leisure if not more so as a typical strict touch tablet only device (given small caveats for sure). It can do such - especially now since the price for two separate devices to handle and carry and the price of interoperability is down right worth it alone.

There are many people I see with papers sprawled about, books sprawled about, and a laptop sitting there amongst them taking up space, papers each having hand written notes or diagrams - some may call this a niche - but it is much more needed than one perceives the market as such. Even more so of passing back the laptop screen instead of the device flat for collaboration (going back to the ORIGINAL Surface concept).

Market it as such, and the consumers will come (even those that are ideal for the Surface Pro like devices).

And there should be no problem reselling one's own Apple devices to make the switch - software pending on iPad - but internet browsing for many websites that offer app options and modern apps combined (and with possible growing worthwile software additions - both desktop and modern areas) would make the app issue not relevant. To add to that, leveraging desktop applications - including games like a laptop.

Nah, I think you've bought a little too fully into Microsoft's marketing. I've used the Pro 3 in the wild... it's pretty big and heavy for a tablet, and the keyboard isn't the best for typing. You're leaning a bit too heavily on price (you're not saving a huge amount) and have a fairly rose-tinted view of how people would react if they knew about it. "All they need to do is toss out two devices!" Yeah, if both of them are due for a replacement, maybe. For most people, at least one of those gadgets is doing nicely.


I like that tool, the pen. It is still needed always much like an unhindered cursor on a desktop of windows at times (or a pen for such). Jobs did a disservice by completely ignoring that aspect - and in general tossed aside the other aspects of slate/tablet computing in my opinion.

Not many times I can type with two hands, while holding the device, fast - the pen comes in as faster and much more flexible for notes without a typical table or desk (hence I like the Surface Pro's evolving weight reduction (with the Pro 3 but do not mind the Pro 2).

Even thumb typing is slow (on any tablet). One hand typing, holding a laptop serving tray style isn't ideal either.

Pens are useful in the right circumstances. Gates' problem (and indeed, Microsoft's major problem until Windows 8) was that he saw it as central to the experience, and didn't see any pressure to adapt Windows for touch. Apple showed the truth: most people don't need pen input, and they're happy with a finger-optimized interface. That's one reason why iPad sales managed to eclipse several years of Tablet PC sales in a matter of months. I wouldn't mind keeping the pen if it turns out that it's a relatively cheap item, but I think Microsoft may be shooting itself in the foot if there's a significant premium.
 
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Red Storm

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Oct 2, 2005
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I was able to briefly check one out at the MS store the other day. Definitely much thinner and lighter than the Pro 2, noticeably so. I still think it's one more generation away from the modern, high end tablet form (i.e. very thin and light), but all in all it's better than the Pro 2 in every way.
 

ibex333

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Mar 26, 2005
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Personally, I think you got to be a madman, or filthy rich to buy a Surface Pro. Whatever this thing can do, other devices can do the same for much cheaper, minus the lame Windows 8.

I recently got a refurbished Asus laptop with a touch screen and I'm loving it. It might not be as portable as the Surface, but it's so much more powerful, much cheaper, and I don't have to pay $130 for a keyboard! For portability I have an iPad and my Note 3, but even if I didn't, just one of the two would be enough as well. No way in hell would I be crazy enough to pay $1130 for a Microsoft product.

And no, this is not a troll or a bait post. I mean every word I said.
 

Imaginer

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Oct 15, 1999
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Nah, I think you've bought a little too fully into Microsoft's marketing. I've used the Pro 3 in the wild... it's pretty big and heavy for a tablet...

I would appreciate the consolidated screen for reference and work. I didn't bought into the marketing. I bought into a tablet PC that finally is decent and good to always have around.

Do note, I had the duality of a dedicated tablet (Kindle Fire) and a laptop (Envy 14). It was cumbersome. Taking the Fire out was extremely limited for getting ideas and notes down or even referencing information to record (writing from external sources - copying from online sources, no screen captures, no file manipulations).

It is the same with the iPad and Macbook area. I would ought to carry either one out and about, and most likely, I would be frustrated with an iPad - even if it is solely for viewing - but that isn't at all what I would do.

And yes, I can very well spot in many areas out that people would like that consolidation - papers and paper documents strewn, a laptop JUST for viewing videos or typing (one can take a camera of a document and mark them up). As I mentioned before - and Panos Panay did too - that the Pros essentially is a carry it all notebook (not a small notepad) for creating and storing work, like a bigger portfolio or organizer but more so. It is not marketing hype for me, it is the actual need that drawn my attention - unlike the push for iPad (though without that push, the Surface wouldn't have surfaced). Problem with the iPad, it is sole sourced in hardware. Least if I did not like an iteration of Microsoft's offering, I can see if an OEM has one - and software is going to work and present itself well without OEM UI customizations (Android).

The outright convertibility from a pure typing work, to leisure and pen, to roaming around to continue work is something I cannot do on a laptop.

I felt that there are some harboring into some industries wanting to keep that distinction. Ultimately, a convergence would happen in combining work, play, not just "sitting back and watch".

I think you got to be a madman, or filthy rich to buy a Surface Pro. Whatever this thing can do, other devices can do the same for much cheaper, minus the lame Windows 8.

Gaming notebooks, easily heavier, bulkier, and more powerful for distinct areas of use while hindering other primary areas of a notebook (carry, deployability, power, and mobility) is an even more insane purchase. Great for LAN parties though, as they are more compact than a monitor, keyboard, and tower (any size) setup. That area of industry is finally swinging up to bat, but it would take power throttling from AMD/NVidia to efficiently use their current architectures (and I would like to see that - or a more performance-if-needed-push from Intel).

But even if a gaming notebook does exist - it would not be what I want from a convertibility tablet PC standpoint.

I strayed away from netbooks, because I know what they can do - and offered not much compared to the laptop I was using before. Compared to past desktop systems (and most certainly laptops), current pricing on any hardware (even the Surface Pro lines) isn't bad. Hell, I even considered a Sony Vaio Picturebook C2. That at the time was even more expensive than the Surface Pro 1 for what I get in work real-estate to balance with travel and computing power.

I strayed away from past Tablet PCs, namely they act as laptops in whole for less hardware, and less options to begin with. Many screen implementations are rigid, and possibly prone to failure due to wear (swivel hinge).

The market is spoiled by the rush of the lowest common denominator cheap device - not a bad thing, but it also has an effect on marketing - not directly from the competitor pushing their own product - but a more handicap against them. I also seen it in this very forum, complaining about build quality - when it is much more than that in quality, possibly down to the software implementation in drivers - yet people STILL BUY them.


TL: DR,

You get what you paid for. And I definitely did not buy into the marketing.

Addendum:

For reference, in high school - my Pentium II 400 tower only was roughly $800 if I recall. No keyboard or mouse or speakers. Webcam? No such thing. Earshot of the cheapest Pro 3 configuration. An Intuos 2 that I had shortly after to work with the system was around $300 I believe. And most definitely, to satisfy the point of someone coming here to say I got the money from parents and gifts - it was savings through part-time work that funded the entire cost.

Come think of it, this PII build above is what spurred my joining of Anandtech forums for advice, and the Anandtech article for choosing the Abit BH6.
 
Last edited:

Roland00Address

Platinum Member
Dec 17, 2008
2,196
260
126
There will always be
flexible devices (surface with keyboard) and there will always be specialized devices (macbook air/ultrabook)
flexible device (gaming laptop) and there will always be specialized devices (gaming desktop)
flexible device (kindle fire tablet) and there will always be specialized devices (kindle fire paperwhite)
flexible device (surface 3 for drawing) and there will always be specialized devices (cintiq 24HD touch)
etc

It is always about trades off and priorities. If there are no trade offs then the device becomes more popular. If the priority becomes less important to the general population at large the device becomes less popular.

Eventually the "market" will celebrate what people will care about, sometimes a market is very large for a lot of people need or value certain things, sometimes the market is very small for while some people care about something A LOT the population who cares about x alot is just a small population.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,818
136
I would appreciate the consolidated screen for reference and work. I didn't bought into the marketing. I bought into a tablet PC that finally is decent and good to always have around.

Do note, I had the duality of a dedicated tablet (Kindle Fire) and a laptop (Envy 14). It was cumbersome. Taking the Fire out was extremely limited for getting ideas and notes down or even referencing information to record (writing from external sources - copying from online sources, no screen captures, no file manipulations).

It is the same with the iPad and Macbook area. I would ought to carry either one out and about, and most likely, I would be frustrated with an iPad - even if it is solely for viewing - but that isn't at all what I would do.

And yes, I can very well spot in many areas out that people would like that consolidation - papers and paper documents strewn, a laptop JUST for viewing videos or typing (one can take a camera of a document and mark them up). As I mentioned before - and Panos Panay did too - that the Pros essentially is a carry it all notebook (not a small notepad) for creating and storing work, like a bigger portfolio or organizer but more so. It is not marketing hype for me, it is the actual need that drawn my attention - unlike the push for iPad (though without that push, the Surface wouldn't have surfaced). Problem with the iPad, it is sole sourced in hardware. Least if I did not like an iteration of Microsoft's offering, I can see if an OEM has one - and software is going to work and present itself well without OEM UI customizations (Android).

The outright convertibility from a pure typing work, to leisure and pen, to roaming around to continue work is something I cannot do on a laptop.

I felt that there are some harboring into some industries wanting to keep that distinction. Ultimately, a convergence would happen in combining work, play, not just "sitting back and watch".

It's all well and good that the Surface concept works for you, but it seems like you've extrapolated too far from that -- because it fits your needs, it must fit everyone's needs. Anecdotal observations of people in the coffee shop or lecture hall aren't evidence, either.

In terms of ergonomics and price, a good mobile OS tablet is better for e-books, movies and many other casual tasks -- there's just no disputing this. Likewise, laptops typically have better keyboards and trackpads, and it's not hard to find them with better screens, processors and storage if you need it. You have to value integration above all else to pick something in the current crop of hybrids (including the Pro 3) over more conventional devices, because you will be sacrificing quite a bit to consolidate your gadgets.
 

Imaginer

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
8,076
1
0
Just the same, I rather not a market be dominant in "play" only devices, as with the crux of Apple and Android influences.
 

Imaginer

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
8,076
1
0
It's all well and good that the Surface concept works for you, but it seems like you've extrapolated too far from that -- because it fits your needs, it must fit everyone's needs. Anecdotal observations of people in the coffee shop or lecture hall aren't evidence, either.

It isn't me. I can spot many points in my education and work aspects (past and in school) where such a device can usurp my paper loose leafs, copying and pasting formulas, screen capture of notes, typing, at the same time as running programs that exercise my applied lectures.

I am not JUST looking at today's coffee shop areas - which is even a more UNIDEAL work area. I am looking the course of a good decade or more (study halls, classrooms of VERY SMALL desks, other students and colleagues).

There is a picture of Bill Gates and a flood of desk notebooks, spiral binders, and file cabinets. I maybe glorifying some aspects, but today, I am finally seeing that vision converge to something more compact, readily deployable, readily usable, and readily picked up and moved out to locales of work.

In short, this will also eliminate expensive office locations and stationary offices too - thus eliminating large buildings (and their respective costs of upkeep). Being able to actually work anywhere in a feasible manner is a boon. Though I am speaking through sparkling goggles of idealism - but has roots in down to earth application.

Handwriting is ALWAYS needed. The desktop is ALWAYS needed. Touch compliments and partners well side by side. Touch is also more friendly alone, but doesn't do much in itself.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,818
136
It isn't me. I can spot many points in my education and work aspects (past and in school) where such a device can usurp my paper loose leafs, copying and pasting formulas, screen capture of notes, typing, at the same time as running programs that exercise my applied lectures.

I am not JUST looking at today's coffee shop areas - which is even a more UNIDEAL work area. I am looking the course of a good decade or more (study halls, classrooms of VERY SMALL desks, other students and colleagues).

There is a picture of Bill Gates and a flood of desk notebooks, spiral binders, and file cabinets. I maybe glorifying some aspects, but today, I am finally seeing that vision converge to something more compact, readily deployable, readily usable, and readily picked up and moved out to locales of work.

In short, this will also eliminate expensive office locations and stationary offices too - thus eliminating large buildings (and their respective costs of upkeep). Being able to actually work anywhere in a feasible manner is a boon. Though I am speaking through sparkling goggles of idealism - but has roots in down to earth application.

Handwriting is ALWAYS needed. The desktop is ALWAYS needed. Touch compliments and partners well side by side. Touch is also more friendly alone, but doesn't do much in itself.

Please read what I said again, because it's pretty clear you weren't paying attention. You repeated exactly what you did before: equate your personal experience with that of everyone else, and confuse your anecdotal observations with concrete evidence of larger patterns.

It doesn't matter how much you feel your experience of a hybrid device applies to others, or how long you've been noticing people who you think are candidates... those still don't represent proofs. You've shown that there's an audience; you haven't shown that there's a truly large audience, or even that the people you cite as examples will be receptive to Microsoft's vision. They might be eventually, but the Pro 3 doesn't really meet that goal yet.

Also, beware of dealing in absolute claims, because they tend not to hold up. Handwriting will likely be a mainstay of human society for a long time, but that doesn't mean that it's always useful, everywhere. The desktop argument follows a similar tack; funny, there are millions of people (particularly in developing countries like China and India) who not only don't own a desktop, they don't even own a PC; their phone or tablet is their only computer.
 

Imaginer

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
8,076
1
0

I have. And the "majority" mentality is reasons why I haven't seen such a device UNTIL NOW or much offerings of those options. I looked at any and other solutions (note solutions, not a single device or piece of software) and most aren't satisfactory until now. Given the "majority" catering - it most likely continue that path.

You mentioned I should not apply my examples and other perceived examples, but that is the most concrete ones I can give. Elsewhere, arguments are determined by solely business numbers, market share numbers. Things that is just a metric that can go nowhere - something that one is quickly to look at too.

Over a decade. AMD and now mostly Intel is making strides. Elsewhere, many are re-inventing the wheel that doesn't apply well enough for the sake of standards changing - or even catering to working standards. I seen this with Steam and Gabe's perceived direction with the Steam box, when in likely, a straight forward streaming box (which they ARE releasing now, a good thing) or a simple move of the PC and desk setup, or setting a Miracast transmitter/receiver or WiDi transmitter and receiver (again, not ideal given the EM environment of some households, but if streaming can be applied, a hard ethernet line can simply applied in a same manner for fuller robustness - but no one would think of this.

Soap box for long. Didn't mean to take the thread off topic.

On topic again -

I handled the Surface Pro 3. VERY LIGHT for what it has inside on similar to same as the Surface Pro 2 chip wise (despite the larger screen area). I do not agree with the pen implementation. Pen disgreemens are more or less the lack of an eraser end and the radial menu of Wacom - one of which can be resolved driver/software end, the other will require a second pen version release (much like different keyboard covers for different purposes (power cover for one).

The 3:2 aspect would be again, very nice for areas of work. Right now, with my Pro 2 - I have space horizontally that aren't in the center of my pen for working and needs panning - at the same time, that space can be filled with layers panes or a snapped app, but that more or less is a workspace layout preference - both aspect ratios aren't bad at all and can be workable.

Fuller typing and simultaneous text and content, can be better with the 12 inch screen. It is no 14" laptop, but for the overall area, I would appreciate it for typing and referencing alongside notes. The larger resolution would be in line with more compact laptops. I can see programming lightly well on the device while referencing. Multiple tabs can be pulled in a same manner, and with a pen in hand, I can make off notes elsewhere in a switched task, and quickly set down to continue typing.

The new power connector is very nice - It goes on more quickly than the previous connectors. More than likely, with the extra contacts, it would be a sole connector for docking (as possibly Microsoft has intended).

Not sure about the extra strip for "solid" keyboard typing. I have no problems typing on the type covers of past, in various orientations. I do have to adjust for the Start bezel icon - Charms options would possibly disable it through the Settings option and easily be able to add in - and be beneficial to other WIndows devices with a Start bezel icon.

Pressure works well. The pen tip comes much closer to the screen. There is a certain tilt where it would go off alignment to actual cursor position though. Edge screen drift is minimized compared to the Wacom implementations. And if out in the field, there isn't the EM of the digitizer that may add to the EM "noise" that may distrupt wireless communications, since the EM of the digitizer is isolated in the pen, and active upon using the pen.

Due to the closeness of the cursor to the pen tip, there isn't much need to cursor hover, but cursor hovering with the pen is still viable - with a slight delay, that is very tiny to show the cursor after the pen is in proximity.

Palm blocking works well still. Much better than before with the Pro 1.

Again, much like the Pro 1, I await driver resolvement - but unlike the Pro 1, I am not out in a rush to buy the Pro 3 as I already have my solutions at hand. Computing wise, software compatibility wise, performance wise, everything is comparable. the forms improved however. Certain functions software pending, aren't there - but it is something I experienced on the Pro 1's growing pains.

Gaming, I expect the device again to be a bonus in leveraging PC games of the past and present. The performance isn't too much of a difference unless going to an i7 setup which is a slight improvement. Nice on the go - but if one is to really and solely emphasize gaming, there are better performing mobile devices for PC gaming out there, just as dedicated touch devices for simple games (though Modern areas can leverage those very same simple touch games).

Also, the Pro 3, I would anticipate lasting me for a few to several years. Hardware has gotten good to where longevity is much more than the past Athlon-Athlon XP upgrade increments - pending other aspects of the build holding out and battery integrity. Price is in reason for the life expectancy if not more so.

The pen loop in the keyboard is a nice slight addition. I would use it, given it being there. I like the thickness of the pen, it is better to hold for writing and character work with off characters. Again, I do not entirely agree with the sole button to turn on the device, as it isn't much to turn on the device as is now, but I would like to see a second pen having a much expanded erasing end / right click end possibly.

Final notes are on the laptop handling, one of which is the kickstand, now completely variable to an extreme degree. Nice, but the longevity of the mechanism is yet to be determined. I would appreciate it in a typical table placed laptop deployment, adjusting for seating height, seating and device distance too.

Typical laptop handling, the trackpad is MUCH BETTER than the Type Cover 2, it doesn't respond with a fickle delay in click or sliding. Being a smooth surface, it is akin to a typical touchpad, with a physical depression that ensures a solid click - unlike the "touch" clicking and "spongy" buttons on the Type Cover 2. I would still use the trackpad as a contingency pointing device, but it is larger and responds like one.

I haven't had a chance to sit down, typical seating chair settings, to really use the kickstand as one would be more inclined to use it as a typical laptop - but in more or less, both devices would be flat. Considering the taller vertical aspect, cover and Surface Pro 3 on my legs, it would be extending entirely on my legs. The cover would be propped against my stomach as I done with my Pro 2.

Due to the very bright area of the Microsoft Store location (a specialty store), I cannot gauge the viewing angles I would have be using it for, but it is bright enough to do work on, even if I am looking it from an extreme side angle. Brightness was set in the middle. I done this to see the gap distance from the cursor to the pen tip too and noting the angles of use.

As a Surface Pro 2 owner and user, I would be awaiting a bit after release. Those on the Pro 1, would appreciate this jump alone. Those on segregated devices - may like this convergence/price/consolidation.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,403
8,199
126
I just want to know when we'll see $500-$600 SP2's available.

 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Personally, I think you got to be a madman, or filthy rich to buy a Surface Pro. Whatever this thing can do, other devices can do the same for much cheaper, minus the lame Windows 8.

I recently got a refurbished Asus laptop with a touch screen and I'm loving it. It might not be as portable as the Surface, but it's so much more powerful, much cheaper, and I don't have to pay $130 for a keyboard! For portability I have an iPad and my Note 3, but even if I didn't, just one of the two would be enough as well. No way in hell would I be crazy enough to pay $1130 for a Microsoft product.

And no, this is not a troll or a bait post. I mean every word I said.

How much more powerful is your Asus laptop? Surface Pros are pretty powerful, even compared to most laptops.
 

baydude

Senior member
Sep 13, 2011
814
81
91
How is the SP3 i7 for gaming? What are some of the games it could play?

I am going to get the SP3 for sure, but wondering if I should start building a separate rig just for gaming. If SP3 can handle most of the games out there today, then no need for gaming rig.
 
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