Surface Sales Terrible

[destrekor]

Not surprised. It's their first foray into the market so there's that, as well as the other issues with Windows in general.

I bought my mom an RT Surface for her birthday. We returned it in a few days after she said she just didn't like it and couldn't get used to it.



Surface Pro can run all the Windows Applications*!




*That are all designed and developed around a keyboard and mouse interface. Have fun using them with a touch screen.

The "have fun using them with a touch screen" part is kind of pointless - most people who know they could use something like this, for actual productivity, will have a preferred input for certain applications or just what they would rather work with. You can use any BT mouse/keyboard combo if you wish, you can use a USB hub and use wired versions, or a single wireless adapter for multiple devices (Logitech makes such); you can use the touch screen input; you can use the keyboard/trackpad; you can use the pen.

Most people who want to go about using desktop apps with the Surface Pro will either connect it to an external monitor for such times, or will the touch/type keyboard and/or preferred mousing input.


I agree - Windows needs to have better support/UI-scaling/etc for the "desktop" or "legacy interface" so that touch is easy. They have a chance, and I hope they can get this done soon.

But don't forget Touch on Windows is hardly new, and the "Windows tablet" is a fairly ancient device concept at this point, and many business people adapted to how it all worked.

As anyone with an open mind can see, not a single desktop OS has actually perfected touch input for legacy apps. Anything with native touch input, that actually does well, has been a mobile OS.

 

[poofyhairguy]

As anyone with an open mind can see, not a single desktop OS has actually perfected touch input for legacy apps. Anything with native touch input, that actually does well, has been a mobile OS.

Which is why I can't get excited about Windows tablets.

I know some people feel like until a tablet runs Windows its just a "toy." The implication is that without Windows apps (like Photoshop, games, etc.) it is not a real computer.

I feel the opposite. I feel apps that are not designed from the ground up for touch don't belong on a tablet, which means Windows doesn't belong on a tablet.

The problem is that touch compatibility basically means having tons of space between larger buttons, which means less buttons which means less features, which means the capabilities that separates "toys" and real computers get thrown out the window even if the tablet is an i5 Windows computer.

At some point we will just all have to accept that the tablet/touch world means throwing away the complex capabilities of the past. Which at that point, why not just throw away Windows too and use an OS built from the start for touch?

I get that some people might have a LOTR syndrome where in their head they need one device to do everything, but I don't think we will ever get there. There will always be trade offs.

 

[Ravynmagi]

Without Windows RT, prices on Intel Atom chips go unchecked. Plus, you need to look 2-3 years out when ARM hardware will legitimately compete in every space Intel is dominant in. There's no way Windows RT just disappears because of poor sales. Besides, if Microsoft were to flip the switch and allow trusted .NET apps to work, along with significantly faster ARM SoCs like the Snapdragon 800 and Exynos 5 Octa, most of people's concerns go away.

My key point here is that Intel was selling their Atom chips for $50 and because of competition from Windows RT, they had to drop the prices of Clover Trail down to $20 or so. Without RT, that goes away.

There are so extremely few ARM Windows tablets that I don't believe they are affecting Intel's pricing at all. Though I would more likely believe iPad and Android ARM tablets are forcing Intel to keep it's Atom prices low, because that is where the real competition is coming from. Windows RT is competition for nobody, it barely exists.

 

[Ravynmagi]

I don't think that's true. You don't spend 3 years working on a pair of products and pray for failure (seriously, who would do that?). Microsoft's wish to not piss off partners is forcing them to speak in tame language, when it's obvious they wish they had sold millions. And can you imagine how abysmal the Windows 8 launch would have been without Surface RT or Surface Pro 3 months later? To this day, I still haven't seen a tablet not built by Microsoft even beginning to approach the same build quality (and it's their first freaking PC).

I wish they would take off the kid gloves and offer a full line of products and just damn their partners to hell. The Windows ecosystem got sick in the first place because of their partner's laziness, and if they do not put the full force of their $60 billion cash pile into ensuring the future success of their platform, it won't matter what their partners will be doing because everyone will be using a free operating system from GOOOGLE. :whiste:

Microsoft is a software company and they know that is where the money is. So I have no problem believing they would spend 3 years on a piece of hardware they don't intend to be successful as long as it's good enough to showcase their software and help kick start it's partners into making something better.

Even Steve Ballmer realized the sweet spot for tablets was between $300 and $800 and then they release the Surface Pro for $900. To me this says it wasn't meant to really sell.

But I do agree Microsoft's partners have failed big time. I think Microsoft went out of their way to avoid completing against it's partners and the two Surface tablets probably are still among the best selling Windows 8 tablets so far. I don't think Microsoft could have anticipating Samsung, HP, and others sucking this bad with the Windows 8 launch.

 

[finbarqs]

I can get over the win 8 part. Hell, I can get over the $1k pricetag. But with that pricetag, I want something thinner, longer battery life, and data enabled. I would've kept my Surface Pro if it had data. Maybe 256GB of HDD as well. But mainly the data.

Plus with Haswell around the corner, and the interface being a bit clunky (desktop mode is not very touch friendly, and 90% of things run through desktop mode) it's kind of annoying. But I can get over that. But what I can't get over is that in desktop mode, you'll have to manually hit the "virtual keyboard" button everytime you want to type, and it doesn't automatically move your page "up" so you can essentially see a little more.

The virtual keyboard on landscape in a 16x9 format is even more of a joke. You really can't see anything AT ALL! In portrait mode, some of my keys in the virtual keyboard does not respond. This product was way too buggy now that I think about it. The only saving grace was the pen. Hand writing your e-mails through Outlook 2013 was pretty cool... Fresh Paint, the eraser was a joke as well too (back of the pen).

Their commercials are comical as well. So buying one of the surfaces' mean I can start dancing?

 

[Ravynmagi]

Yeah, I couldn't justify spending $1,000 on any computer right now with Haswell on the horizon, especially a tablet where Haswell will hopefully be even more beneficial.

I also wish Windows tablets didn't use 16:9 screens. Why something so wide and long on a tablet? 16:10 would have been ideal. But I can live with that.

 

[BladeVenom]

I don't think Microsoft could have anticipating Samsung, HP, and others sucking this bad with the Windows 8 launch.

Have you considered the possibility that it's not that all the PC manufacturers suck, but that Windows 8 sucks and consumers don't want it?

 

[dagamer34]

Have you considered the possibility that it's not that all the PC manufacturers suck, but that Windows 8 sucks and consumers don't want it?

Doesn't make much sense. What are they going to buy instead, Macs? Chromebooks? You make me laugh.

 

[Ravynmagi]

Have you considered the possibility that it's not that all the PC manufacturers suck, but that Windows 8 sucks and consumers don't want it?

Since I love Windows 8, I'll have to say no. Haha. But that aside.

My issue with the PC manufactures is their lateness to show up with Windows 8 tablets and some really poor driver support. I think Samsung was the only one ready with a Windows 8 tablet almost out of the gate. ASUS and Acer came about a month or so later and the Acer TF810 at $800 is is obnoxiously expensive and had no drivers ready at launch. The Acer W510 seemed okay.

But for 2 or 3 months we only had about 3 Windows 8 tablets to choose from and those were really not all that great. Then finally HP, Lenovo, and others started trickling in. And driver support still seems to be pretty poor for the most part (some doing a bit better than others though).

 

[Genx87]

There are so extremely few ARM Windows tablets that I don't believe they are affecting Intel's pricing at all. Though I would more likely believe iPad and Android ARM tablets are forcing Intel to keep it's Atom prices low, because that is where the real competition is coming from. Windows RT is competition for nobody, it barely exists.

According to this article the RT is selling at more than 2:1 over the pro.

 

[dagamer34]

According to this article the RT is selling at more than 2:1 over the pro.

RT has been out 4 times longer than the Pro has (4 months vs. 1 month) and is half as expensive.

 

[ponyo]

Have you considered the possibility that it's not that all the PC manufacturers suck, but that Windows 8 sucks and consumers don't want it?

I spent lot of time with Yoga 13 convertible laptop this weekend in both tablet and laptop mode. Microsoft is going to have long uphill battle with Windows 8. I think Windows 8 is best on convertible rather than pure tablet like the Surface or pure laptop/desktop without touchscreen. Windows 8 itself is a hybrid. People are saying wait for Haswell but I don't that's going to fix anything. It's not the hardware but a software problem IMO. Windows 8 is the problem. There's a reason Apple has kept OS X and iOS separate. Same with Google with Chrome OS and Android.

 

[dagamer34]

I spent lot of time with Yoga 13 convertible laptop this weekend in both tablet and laptop mode. Microsoft is going to have long uphill battle with Windows 8. I think Windows 8 is best on convertible rather than pure tablet like the Surface or pure laptop/desktop without touchscreen. Windows 8 itself is a hybrid. People are saying wait for Haswell but I don't that's going to fix anything. It's not the hardware but a software problem IMO. Windows 8 is the problem. There's a reason Apple has kept OS X and iOS separate. Same with Google with Chrome OS and Android.

And yet, people keep wondering when iOS and OS X will merge, and those who have used a Chromebook Pixel desperately want it to run Android.

Haswell does have its benefits though. If we can get 9 hour battery life with the performance of a Core i3/i5 in a device as thin as the Surface RT, then there's no reason why every laptop shouldn't be a convertible. But right now, we have to deal with something that's 50% thicker and gets 6 hours max.

 

[Imaginer]

I think Windows 8 is best on convertible rather than pure tablet like the Surface or pure laptop/desktop without touchscreen.

Running pure desktop only, I agree with running a convertable with some keyboard access (but for light and minuscule text input, the keyboard icon on the taskbar is but a click or poke away to access two types of touchscreen keyboards - and a handwriting recognition which works well).

However, the benefit of Windows 8 really lies in having a touchscreen. It is usable out of the box for normal computers and laptops, but saying it doesn't need a touchscreen is something I disagree with. It gives additional navigation options and at times easier access than traditional pointing methods.

 

[Imaginer]

There's a reason Apple has kept OS X and iOS separate. Same with Google with Chrome OS and Android.

And Windows 8 still has two separate modes of operation. But in one device that you don't have to swap hands for or go into a cloud or connect another cable to fiddle with making the two work. Or even a separate support platform for either, complete with a set of compatability rules, security set, and logistics for each. A desktop environment and a touch environment. It is not like they converted the framework of traditional windows with their menubar into a tile based touch interface messing up everything.

The store may leave distaste but it also consolidates listings of major Windows programs, both desktop and applets and apps. (which I don't think are even necessary since you can just Internet Explorer or internet browser the various things to begin with)

 

[Ravynmagi]

According to this article the RT is selling at more than 2:1 over the pro.

At $500 it's easier for it to be an impulse buy for more people (more so than a $900 tablet). It's been out longer. And I think it's just one of about 2 or 3 Windows RT tablets that even exist (ASUS TF600 and I can't think of any others, believe Samsung cancelled their Windows RT tablet).

 

[Ravynmagi]

If 1 million Surface RT tablets have been sold and 3 million have been manufactured, then I can't wait for the fire sale.

 

[finbarqs]

true. it'll make good gifts. I'm just happy I didn't get the hp touchpad during the firesale. It would've been so pointless for me to have one.

 

[Ravynmagi]

I spent lot of time with Yoga 13 convertible laptop this weekend in both tablet and laptop mode. Microsoft is going to have long uphill battle with Windows 8. I think Windows 8 is best on convertible rather than pure tablet like the Surface or pure laptop/desktop without touchscreen. Windows 8 itself is a hybrid. People are saying wait for Haswell but I don't that's going to fix anything. It's not the hardware but a software problem IMO. Windows 8 is the problem. There's a reason Apple has kept OS X and iOS separate. Same with Google with Chrome OS and Android.

I don't really see why people struggle with Windows 8. At least after using it a little while. I was really skeptical of it at first too, but I spent some time with it and realized it's actually really nice.

I run Windows 8 on my home desktop, my laptop, and had a Windows 8 tablet for a short while. On my desktop I just click on the Desktop icon and never have to look at the Metro Start screen again, I forget it's there. I have all my apps pinned to the task bar or as shortcuts on my desktop, which is exactly how I had it with Windows 7 too.

On the tablet the Start screen is really nice to have, the different swipe gestures feel much more intuitive and natural to me than the UI on my iPad 4 does. I find myself wishing to god that Google and Apple add more swipe gestures and use less buttons with their next OS updates.

As for that bit about Google keeping Android and Chrome separate. I'm just speculating, but I think Microsoft is in this rare case ahead of the game on this and the others are going to soon be playing catch up. I think we will see Google merge Android and Chrome as some point. Andy Rubin stepped down from leading Android and it's now it's being lead by the guy that leads Chrome OS as well. I think it's possible Apple could at some point merge iOS and OS X.

 

[Imaginer]

On the tablet the Start screen is really nice to have, the different swipe gestures feel much more intuitive and natural to me than the UI on my iPad 4 does. I find myself wishing to god that Google and Apple add more swipe gestures and use less buttons with their next OS updates.

It also doesn't have the touch UI displayed all the time, leaving your actual working content shown in full.

I think that most complaints about Windows 8 are probably mostly mouse heavy users. It doesn't bother me at all on a trackball. And I left everything at stock. Most of what I use on the desktop is an icon on the desktop and on the 1% or even under that I have to manually visually browse for a program, there isn't a problem for me pulling up a list of all apps (All Program List).

 

[poofyhairguy]

I think it's possible Apple could at some point merge iOS and OS X.

They are working on it. Every new major OSX release keeps coming with iOSish features that I refuse to use, and they have forced everything they can into OSX's App Store.

 

[s44]

Doesn't make much sense. What are they going to buy instead, Macs? Chromebooks? You make me laugh.

You can laugh, but the Samsung Chromebook goes out of stock every time it pops up. And for a huge chunk of former Windows folks, it's enough.

But you're forgetting the two most obvious options: Windows 7, and nothing.

I don't really see why people struggle with Windows 8. At least after using it a little while.

I think you just answered your own question. To use it a little while, they have to buy it, and they're not buying it.

Look, I think MS made one huge miscalculation here: they thought that just calling it "Windows" (and, in 1/2 similarly-named OSes, keeping program compatiblity) would transfer over everyone's feeling of comfort and familiarity from XP and 7. But 8 has, in a very obvious way, a *whole new launcher* that is the biggest release-to-release UI change since Windows appeared on top of MSDOS. (Yes, you can get back to the original, but defaults and first impressions are huge.)

The OS is new, the form factors coming with it are new -- AIO desktops? touchscreens? the Surface itself!? -- and MS needed to sell this package, hard. And they didn't. And all the OEM-blaming in the world isn't going to help them.

 

[badb0y]

I'm shocked! Shocked I tell you!

 

[BladeVenom]

You can laugh, but the Samsung Chromebook goes out of stock every time it pops up. And for a huge chunk of former Windows folks, it's enough.

It's been the best selling laptop on Amazon for awhile now.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

true. it'll make good gifts. I'm just happy I didn't get the hp touchpad during the firesale. It would've been so pointless for me to have one.

I'll definitely buy a Surface RT if it goes down to Touchpad-level firesale pricing. Unlike you, I did buy a Touchpad and it runs Android 4.2 very well right now and it is only an "alpha" build. True, it isn't as nice as my iPad 4 but it was still a bargain for $150.