Surge protectors for HT and PC

[Obsoleet]

I bought this for my Samsung PN50B650, (http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-F...=cm_cr_pr_product_top) it seems to be pretty good.. I didn't want to go with Monster and this looked like a decent alternative.

I'm looking for another one for my PC, right now I'm using an old Monster PowerCenter HT800 (http://www.amazon.com/Monster-...rCenter/dp/B00003CWDK)... do you think this is ok for the system in my sig? Or should I get something else. I hate to waste either product if they're good enough.

Let me know your opinions on these units and what I should do for my equipment, thanks

 

[westom]

Originally posted by: Obsoleet
I'm looking for another one for my PC, right now I'm using an old Monster PowerCenter HT800 ... do you think this is ok for the system in my sig? Or should I get something else.

What does a protector do? Does the silly little 2 cm part inside that protector stop what three miles of sky could not? That is the popular belief. Will its hundred of joules absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? What does it do?

Where is that manufacturer's numeric spec that lists each type of surge and protection from that surge? Monster Cable is very good at identifying and then marketing into scam markets (a previous Monster product is speaker wire marked with polarity and selling for $70). What does that surge protector do? If you don't know and did not first read its numeric specs, then you have set yourself up to be scammed.

What is inside that protector? Monster Cable circuit is the same protection circuit inside a Belkin. Same protection circuit also sells in grocery stores for $7. A $3 power strip with some ten cent protector parts selling for how much? Why do Monster and Belkin charge so much more?

Surges seek earth ground. If that connective material to earth is a wooden church steeple, then a surge is conducted to earth - destructively. Franklin simply 'diverted' the surge harmlessly to earth via a lightning rod. A more conductive material (wire) means a massive surge current creates near zero voltage. No voltage means no energy dissipated - no damage.

You must do same for your electronics. Lightning striking wires down the street are a direct strike to your appliances. You must divert (connect, shunt) that surge to earth before it enters the building. A surge absorbed in earth need not find destructive paths to earth via your appliances. A massive surge current diverted short to earth creates almost no voltage ? no surge energy inside the building.

All appliances contain protection - already do what that Monster Cable, et al protector would do. Your concern is the rare surge that may overwhelm internal protection. Surge energy that is not inside the building will not hunt for earth, destructively, via your appliances. This is how protection is installed where damage never happens - ie your telco CO, munitions dumps, critical communication facilities, commercial broadcast stations, etc. They don?t waste money on your protectors. They need protection.

First and foremost - building earth ground must meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical code. A single point earth ground so that every incoming utility wire can connect short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth before entering the building. Every phone line has a 'whole house' protector where their wires meet yours. Telephone will not work if each wire connects directly to that earth ground. So the telco installs a 'whole house' protector ... to connect surges to earth. That protector must connect short to your single point earth ground. They provide a protector. You must have provided the earthing.

Cable TV and satellite need no protector. Those wires are connected from a ground block directly to earth without a protector (just another reason why cable companies recommend no protectors on their cable).

AC electric is the most common incoming source of surges. Wires highest on utility poles are most often struck. Your breaker box earthing connection must be upgraded to meet and exceed post 1990 code. Each AC hot wire is connected short to earth via a 'whole house' protector. Provided by more responsible companies with honest reputations - General Electric, Square D, Leviton, Intermatic, Keison, Siemens. The Cutler-Hammer 'whole house' protector sells in Lowes for less than $50.

Telcos do not waste money on scams such as Monster Cable and the same circuit in that other protector. When has phone service been lost for four days everywhere in town while they replace that surge damaged computer? Connected to overhead wires all over town, it can suffer about 100 surges with each thunderstorm - and no damage. Why? They only use 'whole house' protectors with a short connection to earth. Your solution (that costs tens or 100 times less money per appliance) is to earth only one 'whole house' protector. Effective protection is proven for over 100 years. What you have done with plug-in protectors may even earth surges destructively through adjacent and powered off appliances.

But again, where is that numeric spec from Monster Cable or Belkin that claims protection in numbers? Does not exist. They are not selling effective surge protection. They are selling a myth routinely believed by a majority ... who never ask what it is supposed to do. What does the Monster Cable protector do?

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. A protector only connects surges short to earth. What does it do with all that surge energy? The NIST (US government research agency) defines the effective protector:
> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What
> these protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge,
> but simply divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.

How does Belkin or Monster Cable 'divert' to earth when it has all but no earth ground. No wonder both never discuss earthing. What is necessary to make a connection to earth sufficiently electrically conductive? Sufficient earthing means a short connection (ie 'less than 10 feet'), no sharp wire bends, no splices, not inside metallic conduit, separated from other non-grounding wires ... how to best earth only one 'whole house' protector. Just more reasons why plug-in protectors have no earth ground; may even earth a surge destructively through adjacent appliances.

Above discusses secondary protection. Every protection layer is only defined by its one critical and always required component - earth ground. Also inspect your primary surge protection system:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

Where are those Belkin numeric specs that claim protection? Where do they not discuss earthing? How does it stop what three miles of sky could not?

Yes, this is long, in part, because few ever ask, ?What does a protector do?? Principles are simple - as even demonstrated by Franklin in 1752. Energy is dissipated harmlessly in earth. Protection is earth ground. Protectors are only connecting devices to surge protection. Telcos have been doing earthing for 100 years. Do not waste massive sums on anything from Monster Cable (or the same circuit inside that Belkin). Most effective solution also costs less - about $1 per protected appliance.

Everything above is about this one fact; no earth ground (ie Belkin) means no effective protection. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Your best protector solution comes from that list of responsible manufacturers, et al for one 'whole house' protector.

 

[Exterous]

I would say you'd be better served by getting a decent battery backup from APC or some such

 

[westom]

Originally posted by: Exterous
I would say you'd be better served by getting a decent battery backup from APC or some such

What does that 120 volt UPS output when in battery backup mode? Maybe two 200 volts square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. One of us learned technology before posting. Confirmed these numbers with an oscilloscope.

UPS can output electricity that is destructive to small electric motors and power strip protectors. And yet be completely irrelevant to computers. Computers are required to be that resilient. As noted previously, appliances already contain internal protection. But that UPS outputs electricity that may be harmful to small motors and power strip protectors.

No problem. If that power strip protector is damaged by a UPS, many will claim it stopped a surge. Then recommend it to friends. Such hearsay often promotes more sales, higher profits margins, and ineffective protectors.

So where is that APC numeric spec that lists protection from each type of surge? Exact same spec that claims protection in strip protectors. Why would anyone recommend a protector that does not even claim to provide protection - power strip or UPS?

 

[Exterous]

Originally posted by: westom

Originally posted by: Exterous
I would say you'd be better served by getting a decent battery backup from APC or some such

What does that 120 volt UPS output when in battery backup mode? Maybe two 200 volts square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. One of us learned technology before posting.

One of us learned to be a dick before posting. I never said use it with small appliances. I never said to use it to prevent surges. Did I even ever claim that a UPS offered protection? No. Perhaps you should try some reading comprehension on for size instead of inserting meaning into my statements that clearly wasn't there. I just think it's better to properly shut down your computer than to let it cut off in the middle of whatever it was doing.

 

[s44]

Buy a cheap Panamax like this one. Why? Warranty.

 

[westom]

Originally posted by: Exterous
One of us learned to be a dick before posting. I never said use it with small appliances. I never said to use it to prevent surges. Did I even ever claim that a UPS offered protection? No.

Then why did you even mention the UPS? Did you grasp the subject and read the thread title?
"Surge protectors for HT and PC".

Of course you did not mention using a UPS on other appliances. That UPS output is typically so dirty as to even be destructive to other appliances. And all computer power supplies provide so much protection as to easily make that dirty UPS output irrelevant. Just more reasons: computer already contain massive protection equal or exceeding what a UPS would do. UPS does not provide the clean power that would protect HTs and PCs.

So why are you posting profanely? Are you upset because you made recommendations without first learning the facts? Then you (not I) am the dick. I simply posted technical facts that contradicted you feelings. Should you respond logically - or emotionally?

That APC UPS only serves one function - to provide power during blackouts and extreme brownouts so that data is not lost. UPS does nothing for hardware protection - which is the topic here. Remember what the topic is?

 

[westom]

Originally posted by: s44
Buy a cheap Panamax. Why? Warranty.

That Panamax warranty (like all inferior protectors) is worthless. Read its fine print. Those big buck warranties so common with plug-in protetors are not honored - too many fine print exemptions. For example, one warranty said use of a protector from any other manufacturer voided the warranty on their protector. Or as described by Newsman on 10 Sept 2002 in the newsgroup alt.video.ptv.tivo entitled "SONY TiVo SVR-2000":
> Eventually it boiled down to a line in the warranty that said "Belkin at it's
> sole discretion can reject any claim for any reason".

Which protector hypes no warranty? The better ones. Did you notice which cars were promoting better warranties? GM. That proves Honda and Toyota were inferior? Principle often demonstrated in free markets: Big buck warranties are hyped when the product is inferior.

Why would you buy a protector that would leave the appliance destroyed? Why when effective protection means no damage even to the protector. A principle well proven for over 100 years. A solution that costs tens or 100 times less money.

If you need insurance, get it from an insurance agent that is required by law to honor your claims. To protect appliances, use what is well proven for over 100 years - so reliable as to be standard even in munitions dumps. And that costs less money.

 

[Exterous]

Originally posted by: westom

Originally posted by: Exterous
One of us learned to be a dick before posting. I never said use it with small appliances. I never said to use it to prevent surges. Did I even ever claim that a UPS offered protection? No.

Then why did you even mention the UPS? Did you grasp the subject and read the thread title?
"Surge protectors for HT and PC".

Of course you did not mention using a UPS on other appliances. That UPS output is typically so dirty as to even be destructive to other appliances. And all computer power supplies provide so much protection as to easily make that dirty UPS output irrelevant. Just more reasons: computer already contain massive protection equal or exceeding what a UPS would do. UPS does not provide the clean power that would protect HTs and PCs.

So why are you posting profanely? Are you upset because you made recommendations without first learning the facts? Then you (not I) am the dick. I simply posted technical facts that contradicted you feelings. Should you respond logically - or emotionally?

That APC UPS only serves one function - to provide power during blackouts and extreme brownouts so that data is not lost. UPS does nothing for hardware protection - which is the topic here. Remember what the topic is?

Sure I grasped the topic. I said I thought he would be better served by getting a UPS - meaning I thought it would be better for him to get a UPS than a surge protector. I thought that was pretty clear but it seems some people are a bit slow.

I know the facts.
Fact: He wanted to know what surge protector people would recommend
Fact: I wouldn't recommend one - I recommended getting a UPS
Again seems pretty clear. Perhaps you do not understand the facts. I cannot help if you want to put meanings into my posts that are not there.

If you actually look at the OP he clearly asks 'what I should do for my equipment'. Therefore my response of suggesting a UPS falls well within the bonds of the topic.

It seems like you are trying to get 'high and mighty' about my not knowing what the topic is however you seem to show a lack of comprehensive understanding of the OP.

 

[Noubourne]

Dude get the cheapest strip you can get because none of them "protect" you from anything.

If the lightning gets to your equipment, it's toast.

If you want it insured, get property insurance.

 

[Chess]

Originally posted by: Noubourne
Dude get the cheapest strip you can get because none of them "protect" you from anything.

If the lightning gets to your equipment, it's toast.

If you want it insured, get property insurance.

totally agre.e.. thats what i pay home owners insurance for =)

 

[westom]

Originally posted by: Exterous
Sure I grasped the topic. I said I thought he would be better served by getting a UPS - meaning I thought it would be better for him to get a UPS than a surge protector. I thought that was pretty clear but it seems some people are a bit slow.
I know the facts.
Fact: He wanted to know what surge protector people would recommend
Fact: I wouldn't recommend one - I recommended getting a UPS

Clear even in manufacturer specifications: a UPS has the same protection circuit found in a power strip protector. And its numbers are blunt. Same ineffective protection uses even less (near zero) joules. Costs more. Does even less.

Only you are being 'high and almighty'. Making accusations because technical facts exposed your post as a myth. You recommend a solution when even the manufacturer does not claim that protection? You recommend something only because you *heard* it recommended ? never even asked why? You did not even read manufacturer's numeric specifications that claim no such protection?. And then you recommend it?

Topic is about 'surge protection'. OP is asking for surge protection. A plug-in UPS does not even claim to provide protection. Also posted were the electrical reasons why. You ignore simple electrical facts and instead post accusations also based only in speculation? One effective protector does so much more, costs less money, and protects everything in the house. A solution sold by more responsible companies - some listed previously.

Provided was the solution routinely used when surge damage cannot happen. Proven by 100 years of experience. That costs maybe $1 per protected appliance. Provided from manufacturers with more responsible reputations.

What would the technically naïve do? Accuse. Attack the messenger because you cannot challenge (never learned) well proven technology. Even the manufacturer does not claim what you have posted. Same ineffective circuit in a power strip protector is also used in a UPS ? albeit even smaller. You only recite popular urban myths. What is provides as proof? You know facts. Cannot post any of them. But you *know*.

In your previous post:

Did I even ever claim that a UPS offered protection? No.

Then why are you posting? OP was asking for surge protection. You recommended a UPS, then admit it provides no protection? Then reply with accusations and profanity? Please learn to help the OP when he was asked for something that does offer protection ? which is not a UPS.

Those who know say, ?a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.? That UPS has no earthing. Provided were products from responsible companies that do earth surges - that protect everything. Also posted were electrical reasons why - which you completely ignored to recommend something that you admit does not provide protection.

 

[NoCreativity]

Reading this thread I thought I was in P&N. Anyway, I would have to agree with Noubourne.

 

[kalrith]

Originally posted by: NoCreativity
Reading this thread I thought I was in P&N. Anyway, I would have to agree with Noubourne.

I was about to post the same thing. westom, do us all a favor and start posting here.

 

[krotchy]

As an Electrical Engineer I would like to point out that while Westom is correct on several of his points, his rants are just plain ridiculous and not worth reading.

Yes, a surge protector is generally just a surge protector, having an attractive plastic/metal case on the outside does not mean anything. They provide 2 functions, creating a route to earth ground for surges as well as (sometimes) clamping high voltage differential signals between line and neutral using something a Varistor or similar device. Some expensive (read nice) isolating surge protectors like an ISOBAR provide full magnetic isolation which protects you from a surge since the transformer saturates.

However a Surge is not the only thing that can destroy electronics. Depending on how a power supply is designed some can be harmed by undervoltage or fast power cycling. However with modern switching power supplies being basically the standard these days, this is generally not the case. Still having a UPS on your electronics can be handy to prevent devices from shutting off due to fast power outages (1s or less) or rolling power. But if you are going to buy a UPS, buy a GOOD BRAND, like APC, and do not hook that UPS up to anything that needs a sinusoid (Things with AC motors).

Last, yes most UPS's output square waves, however they are NOT bad for most modern electronics, and in fact make a switching power supply more efficient because a rectified square wave is nearly DC power, which is easier to step down from using any Buck/Cuk/Flyback design seen in most power supply input stages since there is no power factor involved in a square wave/DC signal because current and voltage have no phase.

OP: For your electronics, just buy whatever surge protector gives you piece of mind, and if you live in an area with short power outages get a nice UPS as well if you want.

 

[westom]

Originally posted by: krotchy
They provide 2 functions, creating a route to earth ground for surges as well as (sometimes) clamping high voltage differential signals between line and neutral using something a Varistor or similar device. Some expensive (read nice) isolating surge protectors like an ISOBAR provide full magnetic isolation which protects you from a surge since the transformer saturates.

1) A power strip protector has all but no earth ground. Layman's reasons were provided previously. Earthing must be short (ie 'less than 10 feet'), no sharp wire bends, etc. Engineers know same from numbers. Whereas a 50' connection to a breaker box may be less than 0.2 ohms resistance, that same connection is something like 120 ohms impedance. A trivial 100 amp surge would put protector and adjacent appliance at something less than 12,000 volts. IOW the surge must find earth destructively through other paths.

Just another reason why high reliability facilities waste no money on plug-in protectors. Just another reason why earthed protectors are located where wires enter the building AND protect from all types of surges including that 'line to neutral' voltage. Isobar costs how much to only protect one appliance and not even have earthing? Where does that Isobar dissipate the energy? Effective protection with earthing costs about $1 per protected appliance. Facilities that need protection do not waste money on an overhyped Isobar.

Wire impedance is why a protector without a that short ('less than 10 foot') connection is not earthed. Connecting energy to earth is the primary function of any protector. Energy not harmlessly dissipated in earth will hunt for earth ground destructively through household appliances. If that surge is large, it will overwhelm protection that is already inside all appliances.

NIST says this quite bluntly. A protector without earthing is ineffective:
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will
> work by diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection in
> the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.


2) Brownouts and fast power outages are also called power off. Power off is the fasting power switching any appliance will see. If fast switching causes damage, then power off causes damage. Brownouts never cause electronics damage. As an engineer, you have designed to meet those IEC and other standards that require electronics to never be damaged by low voltage. However many who never learned will post a retail store myth: brownouts damage electronics. Sales - not honesty - is why that low voltage myth gets promoted.

How do all electronics power off? While AC mains are chopped off quickly, a long slow brownout feeds electronics. All computers are required to create this brownout for much longer than 17 milliseconds (see Intel specs). If brownouts are destructive, then so is power off.


3) Square waves are more harmful to electronics and do not provides 'efficiency'. Harmonics in a square wave induce heating in electrolytic filter capacitors. Not as harmful as a square wave is to small electric motors. But that ?dirty? UPS output with a spike of up to 270 volts must never cause damage electronics. Electronics have been required to be that robust for generations. Internal protection even from that 270 volts spike that makes all but the most destructive surge irrelevant. Protection that can be bypassed if using a power strip protector such as the Isobar.

Peace of mind? Most every fire department has seen these scary pictures due to power strip protectors:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.westwhitelandfire.c...Surge%20Protectors.pdf
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/ne...surgeprotectorfire.htm
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339
This device will sit on a desktop covered in papers or on a rug behind some furniture? That is peace of mind? Those pictures demonstrate a problem with protectors hyped to maximize profits. Where is the manufacturer spec that even claims protection?

We who are engineers and actually did this stuff know why responsible homeowners waste no money on power strip protectors, upgrade earthing, and use a 'whole house' protector from more responsible companies such as General Electric, Square D, Leviton, Intermatic, Keison, Siemens. The Cutler-Hammer 'whole house' protector sells in Lowes for less than $50. Superior protection also costs tens or 100 times less money. How much was that Isobar that does not even have earthing, does not even discuss earthing, and does not claim protection in its manufacturer numeric specs?

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Engineers also know why that earthing connection must be so short ('less than 10 feet'), no sharp wire bends, etc. Technology has been well proven for over 100 years. Plug-in solutions are promoted by myth. Even the manufacturer will not claim it provides protection. Why? NIST, IEEE, Sun Microsystems, US Air Force, FAA, NASA, ARRL, etc all say why. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

 

[krotchy]

I'm not even sure why I am responding to you at all since you clearly lack reading interpretation skills.... but I wanted to respond to a couple points

Originally posted by: westom
Brownouts never cause electronics damage. As an engineer, you have designed to meet those IEC and other standards that require electronics to never be damaged by low voltage.

Yes IEC requires electronics to do certain things. That doesn't mean every engineer is good at their job. I have found plenty of electronics that break from brownouts because they attempt to continue working by ramping up their current consumption to keep everything powered. Excess current = excess heating = blown components eventually.

The device I worked on last underwent 2 weeks of power cycling, undervoltage testing and temperature cycling (-40C to 60C) without breaking, but I do Industrial electronics, and obviously a home DVD player is not tested as well.

Originally posted by: westom
3) Square waves are more harmful to electronics and do not provides 'efficiency'. Harmonics in a square wave induce heating in electrolytic filter capacitors. Not as harmful as a square wave is to small electric motors. But that ?dirty? UPS output with a spike of up to 270 volts must never cause damage electronics. Electronics have been required to be that robust for generations. Internal protection even from that 270 volts spike that makes all but the most destructive surge irrelevant. Protection that can be bypassed if using a power strip protector such as the Isobar.

Ever used a full bridge rectifier on a square wave (Circuits 1 class...) You end up with basically a 99.99% duty cycle pulse wave, or with a rectifying cap, DC. The reason UPS's output a square wave is because they create 170V DC and then switch its polarity, which is quite simple. Btw, they output 170V, not 270V... 120VAC = 170Vpp Sine wave. Once you rectify it you get 170V DC back out, and current consumption becomes DC which gives you a near perfect power factor.

On the other hand, a Half-Bridge rectifying a square wave will definitely give you all sorts of weird harmonics, but a half-bridge rectified sinusoid is also has several harmonics as well and only low power electronics generally get away with using a half bridge.

 

[westom]

Originally posted by: krotchy
I'm not even sure why I am responding to you at all since you clearly lack reading interpretation skills.... but I wanted to respond to a couple points

I do not know why you have posted this. Were you doing this stuff even with vacuum tubes? I was. And it still is not relevant to the discussion. UPS cited only because its constant up to 270 volt spike further proves electronics contain robust protection.

If claiming brownouts cause damage, then power off (which also creates a brownout) would also create that damage. If a brownout damaged anything, then the consumer can only blame himself for buying a product so defective that power off destroys it. Even 40 years ago, brownouts could not cause electronics damage. That is routine as long as it is not designed by Rick Wagoner of GM or someone equivalent. But then it was not the brownout that created failure. It was damage created by a business school 'expert'. We only have our peers to blame for people like him who subvert products.


Isobar does not claim to provide that protection. If it did, you would have posted those numbers from the manufacturer that defined protection from each type of surge. But the problem is obvious. No earth ground means surge energy goes where? So it just forgot to define protection in its specs? Hardly. No earth ground means no effective protection.

What provides surge protection for HT, PC, and any facility that can never suffer damage? Earthing. Every incoming wire connects either directly to earth or via a 'whole house' protector. Protection that means the rare surge (maybe once every seven years) does not overwhelm protection inside every appliance. Protection that means surge energy is absorbed harmlessly in earth; does not go hunting for earth destructively via household appliances.

This is the solution routine where surge damage can never happen - ie every telephone CO (switching computer), commercial broadcast station, cell phone towers, munitions dumps, Air Force bases, rocket launch facilities, etc. Protection is always about earthing. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. That reality 100 years ago is still well understood today by the few who actually do this stuff.

If in doubt, then post numeric specifications from Isobar that even claims this protection.

 

[smokeyjoe]

sorry to threadjack, but I have a question.. i just moved into a new apartment and none of the sockets are grounded (all 2 prong holes). Besides rewiring the whole building, is there anything I can buy or do to protect my computer?

 

[westom]

Originally posted by: smokeyjoe
i just moved into a new apartment and none of the sockets are grounded (all 2 prong holes). Besides rewiring the whole building, is there anything I can buy or do to protect my computer?

Third prong is safety ground (and some other purposes). It does nothing for surge protection. Either you connect that receptacle to the breaker box bus bar with a green wire, or you install a GFCI in that receptacle. Both will meet code.

Meanwhile, effective surge protection means no changes to any interior circuits. It means upgraded earthing to both meet and exceed post 1990 code. Only a connection from breaker box to earth as defined on 24 July. Then install one 'whole house' protector per that same post. Meet those requirements so that everything has effective surge protection. That simple. Tens or 100 times less money.

Earthing for surge protection and grounding for human safety are two different functions that share a common connection. Your question further clarifies what the OP was asking. Protection for that computer and everything else is about keeping surge energy outside the building.

 

[smokeyjoe]

Right now I have an APC brand UPS plugged into a socket via a "2 to 3 prong adaptor".. I don't know much about wiring, but if I take a green wire from the adaptor (which has a metal hole to connect a wire to) and connect to say, a water pipe, will that provide effective surge protection?

 

[westom]

Originally posted by: smokeyjoe
but if I take a green wire from the adaptor (which has a metal hole to connect a wire to) and connect to say, a water pipe, will that provide effective surge protection?

How many feet of power cord? How many feet of pipe? Do all other protectors also connect short to the same earthing electrode? All are no. Every sentence is just another reason why that APC does nothing for protection.

Every solder joint and bend in the pipe makes the connection worse. UPS safety ground wire is bundled with other wires. Just more reasons why that safety ground cannot provide earthing.

View manufacturer specs for that UPS. Where are the numbers that claim surge protection? None? How many times will you try to put lipstick on a pig?

Earthing must be where utility wires enter the building. Any surge permitted inside a building will discover conductive paths you did not even know existed. Did you know wood is an electrical conductor?

Meanwhile, safety grounding a receptacle to any water pipe is now an electrical code violation. Household water pipes are no longer acceptable for safety grounds. Wall receptacle ground must be hardwired to a bus bar inside the breaker box. Earth ground connects to safety ground only in the breaker box. Stop thinking any receptacle is or can be an earth ground. Your solution does not earth for surge protection. AND it violates safety codes for too many reasons.

Stop trying to make an APC do what is does not claim to do, was not designed to do, and is in the wrong location to do. What you have asked to do implies you completely ignored what the NIST, et al have said, and what so many other paragraphs state. Did you read the list of solutions? Did you see absolutely critical requirements such as short (ie 'less than 10 feet'), no sharp bends, no splices, separated from other non-grounding wires. All meet at the single point earthing electrode, ...

Either energy is absorbed harmlessly in earth so that it does not enter the building. Or that energy hunts for earth ground destructively via your appliances. I know this is simply the same thing repeated. But so are so brainwashed by plug-in myths that reality must be posted but again and again and again before it is heard.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. That APC does not have earth ground AND is not designed to protect from the typically destructive surges - no matter how much lipstick is used.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: smokeyjoe
Right now I have an APC brand UPS plugged into a socket via a "2 to 3 prong adaptor".. I don't know much about wiring, but if I take a green wire from the adaptor (which has a metal hole to connect a wire to) and connect to say, a water pipe, will that provide effective surge protection?

If you use a 2 to 3 prong adapter you are supposed to unscrew the screw from the cover plate and place that screw through the tab on the adapter which makes the ground hole on the adapter connect to the homes ground.

That is provided that the box in the wall is grounded itself.
http://www.tangible-technology.../3_groundADAPTER_w.jpg

 

[westom]

That safety ground (the three prong adaptor) will do nothing for surge protection. That ground wire is for (and therefore only called) safety ground.

Some of the engineering reasons why that safety ground wire does not provide surge protection were posted: How many feet of power cord? Do all other protectors also connect short to the same earthing electrode? Every sentence is just another reason why that APC does nothing for protection. UPS safety ground wire is bundled with other wires. Too many splices. Just more reasons why safety ground cannot provide sufficient earthing.

But then the UPS manufacturer does not even claim to provide surge protection. What good will too much impedance to earth when even the manufacturer does not claim surge protection?

 

[smokeyjoe]

Originally posted by: westom

Originally posted by: smokeyjoe
but if I take a green wire from the adaptor (which has a metal hole to connect a wire to) and connect to say, a water pipe, will that provide effective surge protection?

How many feet of power cord? How many feet of pipe? Do all other protectors also connect short to the same earthing electrode? All are no. Every sentence is just another reason why that APC does nothing for protection.

Every solder joint and bend in the pipe makes the connection worse. UPS safety ground wire is bundled with other wires. Just more reasons why that safety ground cannot provide earthing.

View manufacturer specs for that UPS. Where are the numbers that claim surge protection? None? How many times will you try to put lipstick on a pig?

Earthing must be where utility wires enter the building. Any surge permitted inside a building will discover conductive paths you did not even know existed. Did you know wood is an electrical conductor?

Meanwhile, safety grounding a receptacle to any water pipe is now an electrical code violation. Household water pipes are no longer acceptable for safety grounds. Wall receptacle ground must be hardwired to a bus bar inside the breaker box. Earth ground connects to safety ground only in the breaker box. Stop thinking any receptacle is or can be an earth ground. Your solution does not earth for surge protection. AND it violates safety codes for too many reasons.

Stop trying to make an APC do what is does not claim to do, was not designed to do, and is in the wrong location to do. What you have asked to do implies you completely ignored what the NIST, et al have said, and what so many other paragraphs state. Did you read the list of solutions? Did you see absolutely critical requirements such as short (ie 'less than 10 feet'), no sharp bends, no splices, separated from other non-grounding wires. All meet at the single point earthing electrode, ...

Either energy is absorbed harmlessly in earth so that it does not enter the building. Or that energy hunts for earth ground destructively via your appliances. I know this is simply the same thing repeated. But so are so brainwashed by plug-in myths that reality must be posted but again and again and again before it is heard.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. That APC does not have earth ground AND is not designed to protect from the typically destructive surges - no matter how much lipstick is used.

Thanks for the response.. I guess I will continue my threadjack. Again, I am no electrician.. not even close, so forgive me when I say that I do not completely comprehend all of what you are saying.

If I didn't already mention it - I bought this UPS before I moved into my new place. Previously, my old abode had all grounded sockets; my new one does not. Please, no more on the difference between safety grounding and earth grounding.

I will try to answer your questions:

Where are the numbers that claim surge protection?
I presume you mean "what"; but here is where the numbers are if you are so inclined to look - Product Info. And according to that link, the UPS provides 420 joules of surge energy rating (whatever that means) and this blurb "Full time multi-pole noise filtering : 5% IEEE surge let-through : zero clamping response time : meets UL 1449", which I guess you should comprehend.

Did you know wood is an electrical conductor?
Yes.

Did you read the list of solutions?
Yes. I was asking in my previous post if my scenario would provide effective surge protection, although what I really meant was effective grounding. No need to respond to my scenario again.

In the meantime, I will see about grounding to the busbar in the breaker box.

But until then, I have purchase a 3 sticks of this Hot Red Lipstick and covered my entire UPS with it.. I feel much better.