Surge Protectors?

[imagoon]

Apparently you did not design surge protectors. And did not learn from MOV manufacturer application notes.

Neither do you from numerous erroneous forum posts.

Provide specification numbers for that filter. It is typically inferior to the first filter found in properly designed power supplies. Superior filtering is part of better protection already inside properly designed electronics. Even the power supply, with many filters, has a better in its first filter.

This is a pretty broad comment it is it not? You also don't mention which specification numbers and also assume it is built in to power supplys. Pretty broad assumptions.

So what does that filter do? The protector is undersized. A technique for keeping a protector from creating a fire is to filter incoming power to MOVs. It is an old design technique even discussed in MOV manufacturer application notes. Then a sharp transient (a surge) is blunted; is less likely to turn the MOV into a flaming candle.

Considering a filter isn't a "protector" or "MOV," No one has any idea what this incoherent sentence actually means. Those whole home protectors you keep running on about are the same basic design as plug in protectors. They are just larger.

Among protectors listed in the APC recall is at least one that has filters. Even with multiple inductors, the APC PRO8T2 is still on the CPSC list of protectors that must be removed immediately due to that human safety threat (fire).

Yeah all 755 incidences out 15million sold and recalled units. 0.0000503% chance of an incident. You realize that whole home units can catch fire and burn also right?

No protector stops or blocks(filters) a surge. A relevant EE concept (taught to first semester engineers) is current source. That means anything that might stop or block a surge (ie a filter) causes voltage to increase so that current can blow through that filter. A near zero filter in protectors does virtually nothing to protect appliances. Meanwhile superior filters are already inside properly designed electronics as even required by numerous codes and standards.

Bud here has quoted all of the codes, you chose to ignore them and the science behind it. This same statement (which is incorrect) applies to your whole home protectors since they are the same design as plug in strips. Again, a filter isn't a surge protector. It is obvious that bryanl gets this but you don't seem to so no one knows what you are arguing. Also, it is obvious that you have never been to EE school or even understand the basic EE concepts from your numerous posts here. Voltage is potential. Current is a load. They are related via resistance. Current is drawn, not pushed. A MOV operates by connecting the hot leg to neutral or ground (or both, design varies) when voltage rises above a certain threshold as designed in to the MOV. This causes a high current to be developed due to the MOV placing a low resistance path to ground or neutral which drives current up and pulling voltage down. You can see this effect every time you start your car. Everything in the car dims down because the starter motor provides a low resistance path back to ground and voltage sags sometimes to less than 10volts from 12.5v. Same thing happens when you fire up an air compressor in the garage, the brief dimming of lights is caused by a voltage dip.

That protector filter is in combination with a thermal fuse to avert a house fire. And still those APC protectors were creating fires. Because the APC (like Tripplite, Monster, Panamax, etc) is more about profits; less about protection. Even its spec numbers say near zero protection.

The MOV suppressor may have a thermal fuse. You are technically correct that the filter has a thermal fuse also. It is called a circuit breaker since filter is not part of the surge suppression circuits and would only be overloaded by to much current draw.

 

[westom]

This is a pretty broad comment it is it not? You also don't mention which specification numbers and also assume it is built in to power supplys. Pretty broad assumptions.

No broad assumption exists. FCC regulations and other standards mean electronics have better filters. If you knew otherwise, then posted are relevant spec numbers including filter specs from a protector. No numbers were posted for one simple reason. Denials come from wild speculation. Honesty means spec numbers were included.

What was posted was completely misread. A major difference exists between that thermal fuse and a completely different and irrelevant 15 amp circuit breaker. You should have known that before posting. Since the previous post made it obvious. A circuit breaker is needed on power strips - protector and non-protector types to also disconnect attached appliances. A thermal fuse only disconnects protector parts (ie MOVs). Leaving a surge connected to attached appliances. You did not read what was posted.

Even assumed was another thermal fuse to protect a filter. Where did that come from?

Current is drawn - not pushed? Why this nonsense? Resistance is irrelevant here. You should have also known that before denying. Impedance is the major parameter.

Wires inside walls with sharp bends can have low resistance and high impedance. Only a fewer who know how electricity works would understand. And know why effective protectors routinely make a low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to what actually does protection.

You do not even know what a thermal fuse does, why it is not a 15 amp circuit breaker, what a filter does, and do not understand a relevant difference between impedance and resistance. Even post without any spec numbers. Somehow you know more about surge protectors? Because hearsay said so? Because current is drawn - not pushed?

You do not understand the difference between impedance and resistance. Even first semester EE student learn that. Your denials include no spec numbers. Apparently ignoring spec numbers and technical facts is a habit. Demonstrates why so many believe advertising rather than 100 years of well proven science.

No wonder the OP thought surge protection is complicated. You post myths and hearsay that creates confusion and fictional complication. Protection was always this simple. Either a surge connects low impedance and harmlessly outside in earth. Or effective protection does not exist. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. That simple.

 

[imagoon]

No broad assumption exists. FCC regulations and other standards mean electronics have better filters. If you knew otherwise, then posted are relevant spec numbers including filter specs from a protector. No numbers were posted for one simple reason. Denials come from wild speculation. Honesty means spec numbers were included.

I am not required to support your argument. As you said, "Honesty means spec numbers were included" so by you not providing this information that you are in fact not honest?

What was posted was completely misread. A major difference exists between that thermal fuse and a completely different and irrelevant 15 amp circuit breaker. You should have known that before posting. Since the previous post made it obvious. A circuit breaker is needed on power strips - protector and non-protector types to also disconnect attached appliances. A thermal fuse only disconnects protector parts (ie MOVs). Leaving a surge connected to attached appliances. You did not read what was posted.

Actually it is you the was confused by filter and protection [surge protection]. A circuit breaker is a thermal device. Heat due to over current causes the release to activate. This would protect the filter which is a different part than a MOV. Also you keep ignoring this but your "whole house protectoer" with "less than 10 feet to an earth grounding point" also has a thermal fuse, leaving a surge connected to attached appliances. I did read what you posted, apparently you do not know what you wrote.

Even assumed was another thermal fuse to protect a filter. Where did that come from?

From your completely incoherent sentence:

So what does that filter do? The protector is undersized. A technique for keeping a protector from creating a fire is to filter incoming power to MOVs. It is an old design technique even discussed in MOV manufacturer application notes. Then a sharp transient (a surge) is blunted; is less likely to turn the MOV into a flaming candle.

Current is drawn - not pushed? Why this nonsense? Resistance is irrelevant here. You should have also known that before denying. Impedance is the major parameter.

Yes, this is EE 101. Actually it is elementary school electricity. Current doesn't exist with out a load. It is drawn from the source to the device by the device. It isn't pushed. It isn't like a water hose, once the device is removed, current falls to 0. The "current" doesn't just poor all over the floor etc.

Wires inside walls with sharp bends can have low resistance and high impedance. Only a fewer who know how electricity works would understand. And know why effective protectors routinely make a low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to what actually does protection.

You definitely are not part of the Only a fewer who know how electricity works would understand. (sic)

You do not even know what a thermal fuse does, why it is not a 15 amp circuit breaker, what a filter does, and do not understand a relevant difference between impedance and resistance. Even post without any spec numbers. Somehow you know more about surge protectors? Because hearsay said so? Because current is drawn - not pushed?

Actually I know what they do far better than you do. Again you seem to think I am the one that needs to provide evidence against your claims. You provide not spec numbers (for what again? you haven't even said what yet.) If you do not know even elementary electricity yet you claim to be and expert. Yet people like bud and others on here actually provide links and documents to NIST and UL. Even the companies that make the whole house protectors recommend local surge protection,

You do not understand the difference between impedance and resistance. Even first semester EE student learn that. Your denials include no spec numbers. Apparently ignoring spec numbers and technical facts is a habit. Demonstrates why so many believe advertising rather than 100 years of well proven science.

You certainly like repeating this over and over again. Repeating you made up arguments many times simply doesn't make it true.

By the way, impedance is easy... it is the resistance of flow of AC. Resistance is a special case when the AC frequency is 0, ie DC. I learned that in the 3rd grade.

No wonder the OP thought surge protection is complicated. You post myths and hearsay that creates confusion and fictional complication. Protection was always this simple. Either a surge connects low impedance and harmlessly outside in earth. Or effective protection does not exist. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. That simple.

Yet another repeat, with no proof or evidence to support your claim.

 

[bud--]

Depends on whether you have a surge protector or a completely different device called a surge protector. For example, Dr Martzloff notes how a surge protector (the one adjacent to appliances) can even make appliance damage easier. A conclusion from his IEEE paper is layman simple about 'point of connection' protectors:

Westom forgets to mention that Martzloff said in the same document: "Mitigation of the threat can take many forms. One solution. illustrated in this paper, is the insertion of a properly designed [multiport plug-in surge protector]."

Multiport protectors allow you to wire phone and cable wires through the protector. They protect from high voltage between power and signal wires.

At the time of the paper, 1994, multiport surge protectors were just a concept or very new. The point of the paper was that multiport plug-in protectors are effective for protecting equipment with phone and cable connections in addition to power.

In 2001 Martzloff wrote the NIST surge guide which also says plug-in protectors are effective.

These 'whole house' protectors come from companies with integrity including Leviton, Polyphaser, ABB, General Electric, Square D, Ditek, Intermatic, Syscom, and Siemens.

All these "companies with integrity" except SquareD and Polyphaser make plug-in protectors and say they are effective. Westom says plug-in protectors don't work.

SquareD says for their "best" service panel protector "electronic equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in [protectors] at the point of use."

And always has the one characteristic that defined effective protection - a dedicated wire for that all so important short connection to earth.

With minimal mental abilities westom could find out in the IEEE surge guide that plug-in protectors do not work primarily by earthing surges. But that conflicts with his simple beliefs and he ignores it.

Schneider Electric bought APC. Then discovered a serous fire hazard exists with these products. "Schneider Electric Recalls APC Surge Protectors Due to Fire Hazard".

Gee, a whole line of protectors from one manufacturer recalled. Do you suppose it is an engineering mistake?

(And almost half are from before 1998, when thermal disconnects were required by UL.)

Read specification numbers. A destructive surge is hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules will that Belkin, APC, or Panamax absorb? Hundreds? Thousands?

As Martzloff determined in an investigation, the max energy at a plug-in potector was 35 joules. That is with the worst power line surge that has any reasonable probability of occurring.

That was in my last post, It has been repeated here often. Westom does not say it is wrong, he just ignores it. Just like he ignores anything that does fit his very simple beliefs about surge protection. It is willful stupidity.

A surge too tiny to overwhelm protection inside electronics can sometimes trip that thermal fuse.

Nonsense.

Out the motherboard via an NIC. Into a third computer via its NIC. Out to earth ground via that computer's modem and telephone line.

Maybe if westom was smart enough to RTFM....

Any competent manufacturer will tell you all interconnected equipment has to be connected to the same protector. And external wires have to go through the protector. It is also what both surge guides say. And it is the point of the Martzloff paper westom misconstrued.

But then westom would understand why the warranty was rejected by Belkin in another post - the coax did not go through the protector. All too complicated for westom.

For excellent information on surge protection read the IEEE and NIST surge guides. Both say plug-in protectors are effective.

Then read the sources that agree with westom that plug-in protectors do NOT work. There none. All of westom's "companies with integrity" even say plug-in protectors are effective (except one, that doesn't say anything).


I am using a couple Belkin protectors and they are a reputable brand (they denied westom's claim for cause). All of westom's "companies with integrity" are good. The 2 protectors I am using have total ratings of 1770J, 90,000 surge amps and 2655 J, 135,000 surge amps and cost around $30 each. (The currents are far higher than you can even get at a service panel, and just reflect this is a high rating, like the high joule ratings.)

And very important, all interconnected equipment must be on the same protector and all external wires must go through the protector. Plug-in protectors are most useful for high value equipment with both power and signal wiring connected.

In the westom's warranty horror story, not telling Belkinthe cable did not go through the protector would not work. If connected properly and equipment was damaged, protective elements would have been damaged or there would be a manufacturing defect. If the protector was intact and functional a reasonable conclusion is that something else happened. Else manufacturers would be paying for assumptions (my TV died, musta been a surge) and fraud.

 

[aigomorla]

please, a source on that.

I know this will dissapoint everyone here, but I will NOT get a dedicated nuclear fusion reactor to power 2 lightbulbs and a cheap computer for browsing reddit.

Either a surge protector is useless, or help me pick one. I'm not getting an electrician, I'm not going to redo the wiring, lay off, there are reasons why. I really do not feel I need to explain my life story here, it's a simple question. Surge protectors, which one.

or conversely, $10-40 for electrical protection, where does it go.

And if certain companies will not honor their insurance, I will not buy from them. But please, sources before you badmouth companies like that. Companies work hard to make an image for themselves, and I'm not going to take a completely non-sourced comment. I'm not asking for a peer reviewed journal here, simply link me to someone saying they got burned by the insurance, just one. It's a really bold claim to basically say an entire brand is a liar and will weasel out of what they advertise. That would be like if I went around saying you sucklollipops for money. It might be true, but I better give at least a shred of a reason why or else I'd be a huge jerk.

it appears you already made up your mind...

and sources?

I can list a lot of sources...
Monster hasnt honored my friends warrenty, as they said the product only initally covered audio and video eq. Something about how the PC PSU was something else in nonsense with things which were plugged into it that might have not been on the surge protector.

The same with Belkin.

You have faith in surge protectors, especially cheap ones which cost 10-40 dollars? I wish you the best of luck my friend.
Where do those cheap surge protector go in my book?
Outlet expansion... thats it.... i dont hold my breath on anything outside outlet expansion on surge protectors of that class.

 

[Belial88]

westom i love your enthusiasm and passion but I don't find any practical advice from them. It's a very simple question, what surge protector(s) do I buy with a budget of under $40 and 10+ sockets?

I'll consider whole house solutions or whatever if it's in budget and can be installed myself with commonly available tools, but otherwise move off about that. It's not happening.

it appears you already made up your mind...

No, I haven't... I simply asked for a link to any of these horror stories of rejected warranty claims by people who are actually competent (keep receipts, don't actually tell the company obviously invalid usage like plugging in phone, serial, etc).

I'm more than willing to believe that these companies don't honor these insurances, but my google-fu (which probably sucks, sure) hasn't found anything indicating this, and neither have you. Just one link, not even an authoritative source. Don't get so defensive.

I can list a lot of sources...
Monster hasnt honored my friends warrenty, as they said the product only initally covered audio and video eq. Something about how the PC PSU was something else in nonsense with things which were plugged into it that might have not been on the surge protector.

A link. Not you posting an anecdote. Someone else posting an anecdote, would be perfectly fine. But okay, sure, I'll never, ever, ever buy a Monster product in my life.

You have faith in surge protectors, especially cheap ones which cost 10-40 dollars? I wish you the best of luck my friend.
Where do those cheap surge protector go in my book?
Outlet expansion... thats it.... i dont hold my breath on anything outside outlet expansion on surge protectors of that class.

I don't, I'm aware surge protectors aren't very helpful in a real surge, but will help with small ones that occur often. What I do have faith in, is believing a reputable company's advertised claim, unless given reason to believe that they are liars.

I'm not saying trust corporations here, but to call someone liar, even if it's only/I] a couple thousand people who make up a company and spend their life slaving away to make it the best on the market, is quite a bold claim. Like I said, if you told me that westom sucks lollipops, I'd say give me a little bit of evidence, as it's quite a bold claim to make.

Outlet expansion... thats it.... i dont hold my breath on anything outside outlet expansion on surge protectors of that class.

Expandable surge protectors?

 

[imagoon]

http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-ISO...ref=pd_sim_e_4

I had good luck with these in construction trailers where power was finicky at best. I used these on laptops and real UPS units for desktops. If you want to save $3

http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-ISO.../dp/B0000513T0

Same thing with out the test lights.

Decent filtering, thermal protection and 3 large MOVs to help with longer life.

 

[westom]

westom i love your enthusiasm and passion but I don't find any practical advice from them. It's a very simple question, what surge protector(s) do I buy with a budget of under $40 and 10+ sockets?

I'll consider whole house solutions or whatever if it's in budget and can be installed myself with commonly available tools, but otherwise move off about that. It's not happening.

You have two choices. Only solution that protects from typically destructive surges is an earthed ('whole house') protector. Otherwise spend $10 for a WalMart protector. Since that will perform similar to an $85 Monster protector.

Pictures that demonstrate how little is actually inside these protectors - expensive or cheap:
http://www.zerosurge.com/technical-info/truth-about-movs/
That Tripplite has less (only three) MOVs?

Your concern is rare surges (maybe once every seven years) that might cause appliance damage. That might overwhelm superior protection already inside every appliance. How often are your dimmer switches, clocks, CFL bulbs, bathroom GFCI, and refrigerator damaged by a surge? Computer has even better protection. How often do you (and your neighbors) have surge damage? An 'at least' ten year history is necessary to answer that question.

Only solution for a potentially destructive anomaly is earthing - either by a wire short to earth or by a protector doing what that wire does better. It is this simple. No other reliable solution exists. However if it makes you feel better, then get what is electrically equivalent to an $85 Monster protector - a $10 surge protector in Walmart.

Be concerned about the term 'reputable'. Companies that market a product similar to Monster are questionable. Many called APC reputable. And now the CPSC lists many APC protectors as a potential house fire. Only because someone 'blew the whistle'. Other manufacturers were also selling equivalent products. Their products do not have similar human safety problems? Doubtful. They are electrically similar as in those above pictures. Designed to maximize profits; not protection.

A list of more reputable companies included Leviton, Polyphaser, ABB, General Electric, Square D, Ditek, Intermatic, Syscom, and Siemens. These companies make the various electrical equipment that makes house electricity so reliable - and no fire. They market 'whole house' protectors. So that plug-in protectors do a small and additional protection ONLY if used in conjunction with these properly earthed ('whole house') protector.

So, are you worrying about threat that has not even existed in the past ten years? If so, then your concern is for a best (and least expensive) solution to protect all household appliances.

A 'whole house' protector sold in Lowes and Home Depot sold for less than $40 a decade ago. Some might be found today. But prices for everything have increased in the past decade.

 

[Belial88]

http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-ISO...ref=pd_sim_e_4

I had good luck with these in construction trailers where power was finicky at best. I used these on laptops and real UPS units for desktops. If you want to save $3

http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-ISO.../dp/B0000513T0

Same thing with out the test lights.

Decent filtering, thermal protection and 3 large MOVs to help with longer life.

Ah, as I understand, ISOBAR is like a surge protector for each socket or something? I'm just going to have basically 3 cheapo monitors, 1 PC, and a JBL sub6 ($100 subwoof) to the surge protector. I'm not sure I need that much quality?

Or do you mean isobar is cheapest thing with decent protection? Why don't I go with one of their protect it or av it lines?

You have two choices. Only solution that protects from typically destructive surges is an earthed ('whole house') protector. Otherwise spend $10 for a WalMart protector. Since that will perform similar to an $85 Monster protector.

dude you talk like you're from another planet or something, like you have no connection to reality or something. No offense, seriously. I mean, like normal people discuss things like this by like linking cheap prices like ebay or amazon or newegg or wherever, or describe how much things cost. You just talk like this theoretical argument of a dream world that really has no relevance to what I'm doing.

It's like you're on a different planet, one where everyone can afford whatever they want, or cares to spend so much on such things. I think it's pretty clear from the OP I really don't give a shit if my PC was killed, as long as I was protected financially. There is no sensitive data on my PC, I don't do work on it. I really don't my stuff to be protected.

Like I said, I'd much rather have a surge suppressor with a company that will pay out on insurance if something happens, than one that actually protects.

You keep talking about 'IF YOU DONT BELIEVE IN JESUS EARTHING YOUR HOUSE WILL BURN' but you dont ever give links to buy the product you recommend, you dont even list the name of the product or what the product is, you dont say the price of this mystery solution. I mean seriously, do you live with your parents or something? I really, really don't mean to offend you here, but what I mean is like you seem to have a total disregard for financial standings here.

Like, am I the asshole who bought a computer but couldn't afford a surge protector? Do you think I'm like those people who go out to expensive restaurants but 'cant afford to tip'? Maybe I should be using a cheaper computer or something? Because my computer is pretty cheap, it's only an i7-4770k, ud3h, 7950, I paid like $600 for it.

Like you go on and on about earthing and shit, but you have yet to name a single product. You don't even list prices. Which makes me think you are advocating something that costs at least $1000. Which is a big FUCK NO.

Again, I really don't mean any offense, I really appreciate your input and loving your posts, I feel a bit honored you're responding to me... but bring it a little bit back down to earth bro. What exactly do you recommend I buy (I appreciate your whole house protector at lowes comment, but $40 10 years ago really does me zero good in helping me figure out what to buy and how to use/install it).

 

[westom]

Like I said, I'd much rather have a surge suppressor with a company that will pay out on insurance if something happens, than one that actually protects.

No such protector exists. Big buck warranties often indicate inferior products. I am also amazed you believe a relationship always exists between price and quality. That missing relationship is why Monster also sells these things.

Did you see those pictures?
http://www.zerosurge.com/technical-info/truth-about-movs/
Tripplite is similar. Each socket connects directly to AC mains. How does its 3000 joules absorb surges that typically cause damage - as much as hundreds of thousands of joules? Those pictures show what happens when protector circuits are not disconnected as fast as possible.

Protector circuit similar to a Tripplite is also inside the $10 Walmart protector. Why is that hard to grasp? I am completely befuddled why the Tripplite is somehow better. Surges that damage a computer are hundreds of thousands of joules. What absorbs that energy? A thousands joules surge may be only noise to a computer.

BTW, what happens when protector circuits are disconnected from a surge? An attached appliance remains connected to that surge. The "good protector' light can say protection has failed and disconnected. But that power strip will still power appliances.

For over 100 years, it was never about earthing a building. It was always about earthing the surge. A next post from an AT&T forum describes this. Earth is the only item that will absorb hundreds of thousands of joules.

Moving on: from a Tripplite warranty:

Coverage is excluded where a suitable environment for the protection device is not provided, including, but not limited to, lack of a proper safety ground.

I believe you said your wiring is two wire receptacles. You lack what Tripplite calls "a proper safety ground". Warranty is voided.

Insurance is also void if you do not meet another 'fine print' Tripplite requirement:

Telephone service equipment must also include a properly installed and operating "primary protection" device at the telephone service entrance (such devices are normally added during telephone line installation).

An earthed 'whole house' protector must be on your phone line. That earthing is defined in electrical codes and other regulations that define "properly installed". Just another exemption that would void Tripplite insurance.

Many surge protectors are only hype promoted like cigarettes were in the 1950s. Back then, an overwhelming majority knew smoking cigarettes increased health. And got angry when the Surgeon General said in 1965 that smoking kills. Some protectors actually do protect from typically destructive surges. They are completely different from another device also called a surge protector (ie the Tripplite). The completely different protector only claims to protect from a type of surge made irrelevant by circuits already inside electronics (including your computer). But advertising has many believing all products called surge protectors do same - for the same reason so many knew smoking cigarettes increases health.

I recall you have two wire circuits. Then every plug-in protector says it will not do protection. And can obviously reject any insurance claims.

Solutions were defined repeatedly. 'Whole house' protectors are sold by Leviton, General Electric, Siemens, ABB, Polyphaser, Square D, Intermatic, etc. Each provide 'whole house' protectors. A Cutler-Hammer 'whole house' protector sells in Lowes and Home Depot. That is superior protection for everything that costs not much more than the Tripplite. Why say I never provided a single product? How many times have I posted this including where to get protectors for protection from the other and typically destructive surge? These are effective on (and the only solution for) buildings with only two wire receptacles. That alone should have your complete attention.

 

[westom]

From an AT&T Forum that discusses "How can I protect my DSL/dialup equipment from surges?":

Surge protection takes on many forms, but always involves the following components: Grounding bonding and surge protectors. ...

Grounding is required to provide the surge protector with a path to dump the excess energy to earth. A proper ground system is a mandatory requirement of surge protection. Without a proper ground, a surge protector has no way to disburse the excess energy and will fail to protect downstream equipment.

Bonding is required to electrically connect together the various grounds of the services entering the premises. Without bonding, a surge may still enter a premise after firing over a surge protector, which will attempt to pass the excess energy to its ground with any additional energy that the services surge protector ground cannot instantly handle, traveling into and through protected equipment, damaging that equipment in the process. ...

Now, if all the various service entrance grounds are bonded together there are no additional paths to ground through the premise. Even if all of the grounds cannot instantly absorb the energy, the lack of additional paths to ground through the premise prevents the excess energy from seeking out any additional grounds through that premise and the electronic equipment within. As such, the excess energy remains in the ground system until dissipated, sparing the protected equipment from damage. ...

By far, the whole house hardwired surge protectors provide the best protection. When a whole house primary surge protector is installed at the service entrance, it will provide a solid first line of defense against surges which enter from the power company's service entrance feed. These types of protectors can absorb/pass considerably more energy than any other type of protector, and if one does catastrophically fail, it will not typically be in a living space. ...

Plug in strip protectors are, at best, a compromise. At worst, they may cause more damage than they prevent. While they may do an acceptable job of handling hot to neutral surges, they do a poor job of handling any surge that must be passed to ground. ...

Then, to add insult to injury, some strip protectors add Telco and/or LAN surge protection within the same device, trying to be an all-in-one sale. Remember bonding? When Telco or LAN protection is added to a strip protector, if the premise ground, which is not designed to handle surges, cannot handle all of the energy, guess where that excess energy seeks out the additional grounds? You got it! The Telco and LAN connections now becomes the path, with disastrous results to those devices. ...

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

Redacted.
I've misinterpreted the posts.

 

[imagoon]

Ah, as I understand, ISOBAR is like a surge protector for each socket or something? I'm just going to have basically 3 cheapo monitors, 1 PC, and a JBL sub6 ($100 subwoof) to the surge protector. I'm not sure I need that much quality?

Or do you mean isobar is cheapest thing with decent protection? Why don't I go with one of their protect it or av it lines?

No, I am just sharing the product I used and had good luck with. It took getting to one of these to solve some of the failure rates we had in the construction trailers. Generally they don't have great power and attached via temp feeds which are install quickly and cheaply.

I guess the best way to put it "they took a beating and kept on ticking."

 

[bud--]

Only solution that protects from typically destructive surges is an earthed ('whole house') protector.

Not according to the IEEE and NIST surge guides. Both say plug-in protectors are effective. But westom just ignores anything that doesn't fit his real simple beliefs about surge protection.

Pictures that demonstrate how little is actually inside these protectors - expensive or cheap:
http://www.zerosurge.com/technical-info/truth-about-movs/

Propaganda from a company that does not use MOVs in its protectors.
How old are the protectors with failed MOVs?
Did they have 'help' failing?
Do any of them have the thermal disconnects that have been required by UL since 1998? I don't see any.

Only solution for a potentially destructive anomaly is earthing - either by a wire short to earth or by a protector doing what that wire does better. It is this simple. No other reliable solution exists.

With minimal reading ability westom could read in the IEEE surge guide (starting page 30) that plug-in protectors do not work primarily by earthing. They work by limiting the voltage from each wire to the ground at the protector. Ignored by westom because doesn't fit his real simple beliefs about protection.

Be concerned about the term 'reputable'. Companies that market a product similar to Monster are questionable. Many called APC reputable. And now the CPSC lists many APC protectors as a potential house fire. Only because someone 'blew the whistle'.

Someone 'blew the whistle'?
Obviously an engineering mistake on some of their protectors, all made over 10 years ago.

But that means (for westom) that no plug-in protectors are safe.

A list of more reputable companies included Leviton, Polyphaser, ABB, General Electric, Square D, Ditek, Intermatic, Syscom, and Siemens. These companies make the various electrical equipment that makes house electricity so reliable - and no fire. They market 'whole house' protectors.

And they all (except SquareD and Polyphaser) market 'plug-in protectors' and say they are effective.

SquareD says for their "best" service panel protector "electronic equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in [protectors] at the point of use".

So that plug-in protectors do a small and additional protection ONLY if used in conjunction with these properly earthed ('whole house') protector.

Nonsense.

Still missing, a source that agrees with westom that plug-in protectors do not work. He did find someone on another forum that has similar misunderstandings.

For excellent information on surge protection from reliable sources read the IEEE and NIST surge guides. Both say plug-in protectors are effective.

 

[lucky9]

A name brand (Tripplite, APC, etc.) surge suppressor or standby UPS is all you need.
I wouldn't worry about their warranties as homeowners policies will cover you better. You might have to specify you want electronic devices covered.

Standby UPS: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...isNav-_-0500VA

Surge Suppressors: http://www.newegg.com/Surge-Suppress...ategory/ID-535

Both of those pages hold some pretty decent units. I've used an inexpensive APC Standby UPS for years with no complaints ($39.95 on sale. Replaceable batteries when needed are reasonable.) . I live in the middle of tornado alley in Tulsa, Oklahoma. We have plenty of thunderstorms here. Power outages are not uncommon. My little 400VA gives me plenty of time to shutdown when we lose power. I've got several surge suppressors connected to other appliances (TV, Stereo, Microwave, etc.) If you're hit you just replace the surge suppressor/s. I've never lost equipment.
(My daughter had a warranty repair for her Maytag washing machine once. She didn't have it on a surge suppressor.)

CyberPower is the only one I ever had go bad. (It's possible I got hit with a surge and didn't realize it.) It only lasted a year.

If you go with a Standby unit 350VA-400VA is probably all you need for the setup you have.

 

[aigomorla]

400VA is less then a 300W load...

i can think of a few videocards solo which would max that out.

 

[lucky9]

So can I. I was lost in my own world and forgot to check his specs.
His system will need much higher VA than mine. Probably have to spend mucho dinero to cover his rig's needs.

However the use of a good surge suppressor is not really an option to me. It's a necessity. I just would not rely on the manufacturer's warranty. As noted you have to meet some stringent criteria to get anything out of them. Homeowners/renters insurance is a lot less likely to be a problem. But you do have to make sure that electronics are covered.

 

[Belial88]

I believe you said your wiring is two wire receptacles. You lack what Tripplite calls "a proper safety ground". Warranty is voided.

o_o

I never said that. Warranty not voided. I also wouldn't tell Triplite anything so stupid like saying I had only 2 sockets if I did. There's no phone in my house, so no void on that. Come on. I read the fine print.

Solutions were defined repeatedly. 'Whole house' protectors are sold by Leviton, General Electric, Siemens, ABB, Polyphaser, Square D, Intermatic, etc. Each provide 'whole house' protectors. A Cutler-Hammer 'whole house' protector sells in Lowes and Home Depot. That is superior protection for everything that costs not much more than the Tripplite. Why say I never provided a single product? How many times have I posted this including where to get protectors for protection from the other and typically destructive surge? These are effective on (and the only solution for) buildings with only two wire receptacles. That alone should have your complete attention.

Solutions were not defined. Naming companies doesn't help me. Link a recommendable product under $50. It's very simple. Lowes doesn't have anything cutler-hammer (typed cutler-hammer in lowes search box).

Your posts are just not from this world and never give a straight answer.

Please, you and the other guy. I'm not going to buy a nuclear fusion power plant to power my 'junk' $700 computer. I'm not spending more than $50 on this, and I'd rather spend under $20-30. You are not being reasonable at all. Unless you are going to tell me I'm better off buying nothing, suggest me a surge protector that gives me the minimal protection or insurance that I can afford.

UPS is a little more than I want to spend, and I dont care if i lose data. My PC has nothing sensitive on it. I reinstall my OS monthly almost (not for maintenance necessarily, I just do a lot of computer building and swapping parts, testing different things out, etc).

I'm all for a good surge protector lucky9, thanks for your input, but what about the people's claims here that tripplite is an extremely dishonest company and won't honor any insurance claim? If they are dishonest about that, then surely their product is shitty, no? I just wouldn't want to support such a company.

You know, after I've asked time and time again in this thread for a single link to just an anecdote and have failed to get one. I should clearly believe these people about tripplite not honoring insurances. Anyways, I'm not sure whether to go for 2x cheap protectors or 1x nice one for ~10-14 outlets.

 

[bryanl]

Get a mid-priced surge protector from Tripplite or APC that includes a line filter. Presence of a line filter typically indicates the rest of the protector is built better, and it can prevent computer errors when your mother operates her arc welder.

Apparently you did not design surge protectors. And did not learn from MOV manufacturer application notes.

Provide specification numbers for that filter. It is typically inferior to the first filter found in properly designed power supplies. Superior filtering is part of better protection already inside properly designed electronics. Even the power supply, with many filters, has a better in its first filter.

So what does that filter do? The protector is undersized. A technique for keeping a protector from creating a fire is to filter incoming power to MOVs.

I admit to being profoundly ignorant regarding surge protectors and will readily acquiesce to anyone else's expertise on the subject.

I mentioned a line filter merely as an indication of better build quality, and I've never seen one in any of the lowest priced surge protectors.

 

[Wall Street]

I use this (click for link) and would recommend it over anything Tripplite.

 

[Blain]

I use this (click for link) and would recommend it over anything Tripplite.

How is the Furman better than a Tripp-lite IsoBar6?

 

[westom]

I never said that. Warranty not voided. I also wouldn't tell Triplite anything so stupid like saying I had only 2 sockets if I did. There's no phone in my house, so no void on that.

By the time you finish dancing through hoops, they know (even by inspecting the failed protector) that you did not have three wire receptacles. No way around reality. Your claim will not be honored as so many others have learned the hard way. Warranty fine print exemptions make that obvious.

They are not dishonest. Nothing previously posted even implied they (ie Tripplite) are dishonest. They have been honest up front; doing what they said will happen. Read the fine print. A warranty with so many exemptions will not be honored. A bigger hyped dollar number suggests it is less likely to be honored - as demonstrated even by previous examples (including General Motors).

A number on the box means nothing. Relevant are facts in fine print and numbers in its specifications. Fundamental in free market economics. 'Sound byte' numbers on a box say nothing. Only in fine print and specifications must any company state the complete fact.

Do you want protection or not? No $20 solution exists. Please also do not ask for a solid gold bar for $1. Some things just do not exist.

A UPS recommendation (for only one appliance) might cost twice as much as a well proven 'whole house' solution (for everything). And not claim to protect from typically destructive transients. Read UPS spec numbers. Protection, as described by its specification number, is near zero. Even existing protection inside a computer's power supply is superior.. That existing superior protection also explains why 'dirty' UPS power (in battery backup mode) does not damage electronics.

Walk into any electrical supply house, Home Depot, or Lowes. Ask for a 'whole house' protector. Recommending a specific one model is useless. Because no matter how many I list, models in your venue would be different. Because so many effective 'whole house' protectors exist. As demonstrated by the short list of manufacturers. Ask for a 'whole house' protector rated at least 50,000 amps. That could not be simpler. That is the best recommendation.

For a specific recommendation, list many 'whole house' protectors available in your venue.

If a protector is doing effective protection, it has a low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth. Then appliances even on two wire receptacles are protected. Tripplite, Furman, et al do not claim protection if using two wire receptacles. How many forget to mention that? Only a 'whole house' protector will protect from the many types of surges. And for all appliances on two wire or three wire receptacles.

Do you have two wire receptacles? Then a 'whole house protector or doing nothing are your two best solutions.

 

[imagoon]

Again do you have any evidence to back up your claims? I mean besides the evidence of a engineering defect?

 

[Belial88]

I use this (click for link) and would recommend it over anything Tripplite.

Wouldn't want to explain why, would you?

Westom, my outlets have 3 holes in them. I don't know why you keep saying I said they only had 2, because I didn't.

A company is being dishonest if they try to weasel out of warranties. There's a difference between 'our terms of service say we exclude coverage if you use the coaxial and phone lines' and 'well we have a 'no ridiculous usage' clause and we think your hair cut is ridiculous and thus voids warranty'. There are companies that will fully own up to warranties, that won't even ask questions, they don't even ask if you didn't happen to steal the thing from someone, good companies that take care of the customer like Corsair, Gigabyte, MSI, basically every computer component company, wait, every company period, I've dealt with (few hiccups with nzxt is really it, but everyone is screwed by nzxt), and then there are bad companies like...

Well, I don't know. So, it's a pretty outrageous claim, imo, that you say, with ZERO EVIDENCE OR SUPPORT OR LINKS OR ANECDOTES, that Tripplite is so dishonest as to always try to weasel out of a reasonable warranty claim. It would be like me saying Westoms sucks duck for coke, even though I didn't have any pictures or knew anyone who witnessed said act. You're making a very bold claim about Tripplite, and all these companies, by saying they will *always* weasel out of warrantys.

A number on the box means nothing. Relevant are facts in fine print and numbers in its specifications. Fundamental in free market economics. 'Sound byte' numbers on a box say nothing. Only in fine print and specifications must any company state the complete fact.

Yes, just the wattage ratings on PSUs mean absolutely zero and give no indication of a PSU's true power output, I'm well aware official specs are to be taken with a salt lick. I never made any indication I was choosing one unit over another based on official specs.

Walk into any electrical supply house, Home Depot, or Lowes. Ask for a 'whole house' protector. Recommending a specific one model is useless. Because no matter how many I list, models in your venue would be different. Because so many effective 'whole house' protectors exist. As demonstrated by the short list of manufacturers. Ask for a 'whole house' protector rated at least 50,000 amps. That could not be simpler. That is the best recommendation.

There are no cutler-hammers at lowes, so based on what you've told me, that must mean lowes does not sell whole house protectors. Any results looking for said thing costs hundreds and hundreds of dollars.

Please. Bring it to earth westom. How much does a whole house protector cost generally. Recommend a particular model or brand to buy from. Can you find me one that's $20-40. it's like you aren't even talking to me, you keep talking about 2 prong outlets and I never said that.

A friggin link westom. Post a god darn link. Not all of us are 15 year olds in the basement of our parents house on a starship in the far future, where money does not exist, and all whole house protectors are made equally. Really dude, that is not simple at all. You don't list a price, you don't list a brand, you don't list a model. I have no clue what you are talking about.

it'd be like if you asked for what car to buy, and I kept telling you cars suck, only SUVs can handle driving through fjords, and then when you ask me what SUV to buy, I repeatedly tell you JUST GO TO CAR DEALER AND ASK FOR SUV ITS SO SIMPLE. Even though you've never seen an SUV in your life, you don't know how to drive, and you can't afford an SUV.

Do you want protection or not? No $20 solution exists. Please also do not ask for a solid gold bar for $1. Some things just do not exist.

Okay, thanks. We can close the thread people, Westom is telling me, definitively, finally a clear response from him, that I'm better off not buying anything and not using any sort of surge protection, instead of spending $50 or less. Thanks westom, that's all I was looking for.

 

[westom]

Westom, my outlets have 3 holes in them. I don't know why you keep saying I said they only had 2, because I didn't.

You said

My house is about 100 years old, in the ghetto. I would not trust the wiring to be good.

That is two wire circuits. Even if someone replaced two hole receptacles with three, that still is only two wire circuits. Two wire violates requirements attached to every plug-in protector.

Confirm this by inspection or with a $5 three light receptacle tester. A tester or inspection can identify missing safety grounds; identify a two wire circuit with illegal three hole receptacles. 100 year old wiring is only a two wire circuit meaning no power strip manufacturer will honor any warranty.

Again, those companies are only dishonest if fine print does not list its many exemptions. The exemptions exist and are numerous. We know from free market economics that a largest buck warranty often identifies a least reliable product. Facts that matter are in the fine print and in numeric specifications. Numbers on its box mean little.

Even "100% wheat bread" can be white bread with molasses; to look like whole wheat bread. Only spec numbers must be fully honest. Expressions “100% wheat bread” and ‘whole wheat bread” describe different items. Also well understood in free markets.

Both Lowes and Home Depot stock Cutler-Hammer (Eaton) 'whole house' protectors. It will not be with another and completely different device also called a surge protector. Those are two completely different items that unfortunately share a common name. It will be with circuit breakers, electric boxes, and other reliable electric equipment. Ask an informed electrical department guy. One told me (don't know how accurately) they are now in secure locations because 'whole house' protectors are an often stolen product. Or ask the Help Desk to find it via their computer. Help Desk can also say how many are also in stock in other nearby stores. It is not that hard.

Repeating what has been posted many times. 'Whole house' protectors once sold in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. That price has probably increased. Yes, there are also 'whole house' protectors selling for $100s. Similar protectors also sell for less in other venues. One can be rented for a few bucks per month when installed by the electric company behind the meter. It is not that hard.

If you think an effective protector sells for $30, then go find a gold brick selling for $1. No matter how many times you try to define a product in terms of dollars, it just will not happen.

If you want an SUV, then do not ask for a sedan. If you want a sedan, then ask in any dealership. The Camry will not be in a Chevy dealer. But sedans are in all dealers. Ask in Lowes, Home Depot, or any electric supply house for a 'whole house' protector. Even Amazon sells them. It is not that hard.

A second best option? Protection that is already inside each appliance. As stated previously. Protection that might be compromised by a Tripplite, Monster, et al if not also earthing a 'whole house' protector.

Repeatedly asking for things that cannot exist (ie effective protector for $20) will not convert fiction into reality. Lowes, Home Depot and so many others have them even it you cannot see it. Ask them for help. If your store is sold out, they can tell you how many are in stock in all nearby stores. It is not that hard.

100 year old wiring means a two wire circuit even if three hole receptacles are illegally installed. Two wire circuits violate Tipplite, Monster, et all requirements. No way around that restriction.