Surge Protectors?

[westom]

You go ahead and earth every incoming wire and let me know how that goes for you. I am particularly interested in what happens when you decide to earth the hot phases to earth.

Amazing how many times you post without even simple knowledge.

Again what you refuse to read. Best protection is direct and low impedance connection to earth. A current earthed before entering the building does not damage electronics inside. Best protection for cable TV is an earthed cable using that ground block.

Other incoming wires cannot be earthed directly. (Why did you not read this?) Other incoming wires that connect be earthed directly make the same connection to earth via a protector. Next best protection is a low impedance connection to earth via a protector. Telephone and AC electric are earthed by effective protectors. Telephone and AC electric works just fine while earthed. However the naive insist such earthing is impossible - to deny reality and 100 years of well proven science.

Incessant accusations rather than learning basic electrical concepts is why some waste bandwidth with naysaying. Posting constant accusations is why the naive stay ignorant and destructive to informed conversation. He never asks to learn; only posts to deny and attack. Many only learn from advertising. Will say anything to avoid learning reality.

From Sun Microsystems' "Planning guide for Sun Server room"

Section 6.4.7 Lightning Protection:
Lightning surges cannot be stopped, but they can be diverted. The plans for the data center should be thoroughly reviewed to identify any paths for surge entry into the data center. Surge arrestors can be designed into the system to help mitigate the potential for lightning damage within the data center. These should divert the power of the surge by providing a path to ground for the surge energy.

From an industry benchmark (Polyphaser) is "How to earth a Ham Station":

The ideal plan is a single point ground with no sneak paths. Sneak paths are loops that allow lightning current to flow into the equipment room.

and

An adequate ground system, designed for lightning fast rise time current pulses, is essential for long term equipment survival.

From QST "Lightning Protection for the Amateur Radio Station":

The purpose of the ground connection is to take the energy arriving on the antenna feed line cables and control lines (and to a lesser extent on the power and telephone lines) and give it a path back to the earth, our energy sink. The impedance of the ground connection should be low so the energy prefers this path and is dispersed harmlessly. To achieve a low impedance the ground connection needs to be short (distance), straight, and wide. ...
The goal is to make the ground path leading away from the SPGP more desirable than any other path.

From the NIST:

A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protector in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.
You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it (although your utility uses devices they call "surge arresters" to protect their systems). What these protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply divert it to ground, where it can do no harm. So a name that makes sense would be "surge diverter" but it was not picked

This is common knowledge to the fewer who actually learn basic electrical concepts. Naysayers, educated by hearsay and advertising, post denials rather than learn basic and well proven concepts. Concepts as discussed from a company that specialized in effective surge protection: lightningsafety.com

4. Grounding
Low-resistance grounding provides an efficient destination for the "lightning beast." If your site soils are composed of sand or rock, they are resistive, not conductive. If your surrounding soils are of clay or dirt, they may be conductive. "Good grounds" are achieved by volumetric efficiencies. We recommend buried bare 4/0 copper wire – the so called ring electrode or ring ground. Cadwelding security fences, tower legs, and other adjacent metallics to the buried ring will improve grounding.

Direct lightning strikes to munitions dumps without damage is routine. Dr Ufer pioneered an industry standard this industry standard: Ufer grounds. Without protectors. Ufer grounds are routinely found in facilities that cannot have damage. Because earth ground is the most important component in any protection system. Direct lightnng strikes without damage is defined by where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. Common knowledge that was even first introduced in elementary school science. One facility was constructed demonstrates direct lightning strikes without damage:
http://scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm

A Tech Note demonstrates how all facilities are earthed to avert damage. Every incoming wire (overhead or underground) first connects to the single point earth ground so that destructive currents are not inside. Even an underground telephone wire makes that always required earthing connection. Their earthed phones work just fine even during every thunderstorm:
The Need for Coordinated Protection

Schneider Electric's "6 facts and fictions about lightning" demonstrates what informed layman learn - if not constantly in denial:

3) I've got a multiway adapter plug with built-in surge protection. The devices I plug into it are therefore safe.

Wrong. This kind of surge protection just cannot cope with the sheer power of surges caused by lightning strikes. For effective, comprehensive protection you need to install an SPD in your switchboard.

4) Surge arresters are destroyed at each lightning strike.

Wrong. Surge arresters automatically discharge surges from lightning strikes to ground. And they can do so time and time again. Their life expectancy is broadly similar to the service lives of other protection devices like circuit breakers and residual current devices (RCDs).

5) I should unplug my electrical devices during storms.

No, you don't have to, even if lots of people still do. If you've got a SPD in your switchboard, you don't have to unplug anything during a storm.

Switchboard is the main circuit breaker box. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Since protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed.

 

[imagoon]

Amazing how many times you post without even simple knowledge.

Yes it is amazing how little you understand on this subject.

Again what you refuse to read. Best protection is direct and low impedance connection to earth. A current earthed before entering the building does not damage electronics inside. Best protection for cable TV is an earthed cable using that ground block.

I read quite well, your very limited and simplistic understand of this subject shows that you do not know enough about the subject to even know what you don't know or understand.

Other incoming wires cannot be earthed directly. (Why did you not read this?) Other incoming wires that connect be earthed directly make the same connection to earth via a protector.

Why do you keep switching directions on this. First you say the phones and cable are protected via grounding blocks, now you are telling me I need a protector? Which is it westom?

Next best protection is a low impedance connection to earth via a protector. Telephone and AC electric are earthed by effective protectors. Telephone and AC electric works just fine while earthed. However the naive insist such earthing is impossible - to deny reality and 100 years of well proven science.

But you just told me a I need a protector.

Incessant accusations rather than learning basic electrical concepts is why some waste bandwidth with naysaying. Posting constant accusations is why the naive stay ignorant and destructive to informed conversation. He never asks to learn; only posts to deny and attack. Many only learn from advertising. Will say anything to avoid learning reality.

It would be easier to believe if you did not post such rambling, incoherent and wrong information.

From Sun Microsystems' "Planning guide for Sun Server room"

This is lightning suppression, not surge suppression. In that very same guide Sun went over rack local surge suppression and UPS based isolation. They discuss that local suppression is effective for local surge events.

From an industry benchmark (Polyphaser) is "How to earth a Ham Station": and
From QST "Lightning Protection for the Amateur Radio Station":

Again, lightning strike. Something your mentioned whole house protector would not protect against and only distantly related to surge suppression.

From the NIST:

Finally, A real and relevant source. You left out the next paragraph where they state that local surge suppressors are safe and effective.

Additional information:
http://publications.usa.gov/USAFileDnld.php?PubType=P&PubID=1329&httpGetPubID=0&PHPSESSID=

Right on page 7 NIST says the plug-in protector works as expected.

This is common knowledge to the fewer who actually learn basic electrical concepts.

Yes, you have proved this about your posting repeatedly. You do not understand basic electrical concepts.

Naysayers, educated by hearsay and advertising, post denials rather than learn basic and well proven concepts. Concepts as discussed from a company that specialized in effective surge protection: lightningsafety.com Direct lightning strikes to munitions dumps without damage is routine. Dr Ufer pioneered an industry standard this industry standard: Ufer grounds. Without protectors. Ufer grounds are routinely found in facilities that cannot have damage. Because earth ground is the most important component in any protection system. Direct lightnng strikes without damage is defined by where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. Common knowledge that was even first introduced in elementary school science. One facility was constructed demonstrates direct lightning strikes without damage:
http://scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm

A Tech Note demonstrates how all facilities are earthed to avert damage. Every incoming wire (overhead or underground) first connects to the single point earth ground so that destructive currents are not inside. Even an underground telephone wire makes that always required earthing connection. Their earthed phones work just fine even during every thunderstorm:
The Need for Coordinated Protection

You need to stop changing what you are arguing. One thing you will not find in any of my posts is a comment saying grounding is unnecessary. Why I have said is that ground is not required at the device to divert a surge if a neutral is available. This is because the neutral is tied to ground at the service entrance and the core of the local transformers. This does not say that a local ground is not better.

On the same page you mention they also talk about local surge suppression here:
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/surge.html
They even mention surge zone which I know I mentioned in past versions of your gibberish. You told me that it was a fallacy.

Schneider Electric's "6 facts and fictions about lightning" demonstrates what informed layman learn - if not constantly in denial:
Switchboard is the main circuit breaker box. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Since protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed.

I don't know what to say at this point Westom. Your own sources are showing you are wrong with the majority of your claims. It might be time to go back and reread your sources and get yourself an Electrical Basics book of Amazon to educate yourself enough to see why you are wrong and why what you are saying is not the industry accepted norm.

This link contains a basic but decent detailed example of what NIST considers acceptable, written in a way meant for average home owners. It explains that difference between the ground blocks and actual surge suppressors. It explains what multilink protection is and why you need multilink protection.

http://publications.usa.gov/USAFileDnld.php?PubType=P&PubID=1329&httpGetPubID=0&PHPSESSID=

 

[bryanl]

He once said all properly designed power supplies that met Intel ATX specifications had SCR crowbars on their outputs to prevent overvoltage damage. I don't believe any ATX power supply ever did, perhaps with the exception of some built for military or medical use.

 

[westom]

He once said all properly designed power supplies that met Intel ATX specifications had SCR crowbars on their outputs to prevent overvoltage damage. I don't believe any ATX power supply ever did, perhaps with the exception of some built for military or medical use.

I never said ATX specifications 'require' SCR crowbars. ATX specs require a separate circuit that prevents overvoltage. Therefore most everry ATX compatible supply has SCR crowbars if not some other solution.

ATX spec requires that solution ... and defines it with numbers. Some ATX supplies do not have SCR crowbars. Since so many use naysaying to misrepresent themselves as informed and do not have basic electrical knowledge, the market is ripe for PSUs that violate ATX standards.

Even the original IBM PC had overvoltage protection. In that case, it used SCR crowbars.

Overvoltage protection was defacto standard even in PSUs before the IBM PC existed.

 

[Scipio Africanus]

I talked to the lowe's electric guy about whole house protectors and surge protectors, and he was infinitely more knowledgeable and helpful in 5 minutes than I've gotten here. He explained what a surge protector is, what they usually cost, where to get them, how to hook them up, he also explained surge protectors.

Well this is what happens when you post about surge protectors in any tech forum, westom comes along and all hell breaks loose

Your Lowes guy is correct. Whole house is the way to go because these types of units are generally very well built and will protect your ENTIRE house. Most really bad surges comes from outside the house.

The problem with those surge protector insurance coverages is actually getting them to pay. There's plenty of stories online about how whatever company has rejected their claim because of the fine print. I wouldn't depend on it.

For whole house protectors, Cutler Hammer aka Eaton is also an excellent choice. Some other good brands include Leviton, Square D, and Emerson Power.

This one is pretty nice:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/qv/203540660

Or this one which is even nicer:

http://www.amazon.com/Cutler-Hammer-.../dp/B005C5NQTA

Have an electrician do it if your not comfortable with playing with mains. Buy a decent line interactive UPS with it (assuming you don't have one) and you're good to go.

If you're not going to do a whole house, I'd go with a UPS plugged into a GOOD protector. My favorite are the TrippLite Isobars. Westom will dispute this, but a good protector at the point of use is not a bad option at all. UPS's generally have surge protectors built into them but they are usually rated very low (<500 joules) and provide only basic filtering and protection.

 

[imagoon]

Well this is what happens when you post about surge protectors in any tech forum, westom comes along and all hell breaks loose

Your Lowes guy is correct. Whole house is the way to go because these types of units are generally very well built and will protect your ENTIRE house. Most really bad surges comes from outside the house.

The problem with those surge protector insurance coverages is actually getting them to pay. There's plenty of stories online about how whatever company has rejected their claim because of the fine print. I wouldn't depend on it.

For whole house protectors, Cutler Hammer aka Eaton is also an excellent choice. Some other good brands include Leviton, Square D, and Emerson Power.

This one is pretty nice:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/qv/203540660

Or this one which is even nicer:

http://www.amazon.com/Cutler-Hammer-.../dp/B005C5NQTA

Have an electrician do it if your not comfortable with playing with mains. Buy a decent line interactive UPS with it (assuming you don't have one) and you're good to go.

If you're not going to do a whole house, I'd go with a UPS plugged into a GOOD protector. My favorite are the TrippLite Isobars. Westom will dispute this, but a good protector at the point of use is not a bad option at all. UPS's generally have surge protectors built into them but they are usually rated very low (<500 joules) and provide only basic filtering and protection.

Just remember that you still need one for coax and/or the phone line, as mentioned above. The whole house protector does jack if the surge comes in the coax / telco lines.

 

[bryanl]

He once said all properly designed power supplies that met Intel ATX specifications had SCR crowbars on their outputs to prevent overvoltage damage. I don't believe any ATX power supply ever did, perhaps with the exception of some built for military or medical use.

I never said ATX specifications 'require' SCR crowbars. ATX specs require a separate circuit that prevents overvoltage. Therefore most everry ATX compatible supply has SCR crowbars if not some other solution.

ATX spec requires that solution ... and defines it with numbers. Some ATX supplies do not have SCR crowbars. Since so many use naysaying to misrepresent themselves as informed and do not have basic electrical knowledge, the market is ripe for PSUs that violate ATX standards.

Even the original IBM PC had overvoltage protection. In that case, it used SCR crowbars.

Overvoltage protection was defacto standard even in PSUs before the IBM PC existed.

Here is what w_tom said in 12/2001 (emphasis added by me). He did not say the overvoltage crowbars had to be implemented by SCRs, as I claimed he did. However he did say PSUs had overvoltage crowbars, but they haven't been common in PC PSUs, and I've never seen them in any, including the 130W IBM PC/XT PSUs made by Astec. I don't remember enough details about the IBM PC 65W PSU to know if it contained SCRs, but there were no large package SCRs in it.

-------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Why no Crowbar in PC PSUs?
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 20:48:41 -0500

"Not only does this poster outrightly deny an exact quote from Intel's specs for ATX power supplies, but he also does not understand a most basic concepts of switching power supplies. Its called fold back current limiting. All properly designed switching power supplies feature the concept. Overvoltage crowbars, as required by the Intel ATX power supply spec, are more than fast enough and sufficient to shutdown a power supply without motherboard damage - today as it was done even 25+ years ago."

 

[westom]

Here is what w_tom said in 12/2001 (emphasis added by me). He did not say the overvoltage crowbars had to be implemented by SCRs, as I claimed he did.

Well I misspoke twelve years ago. It should have read, "Overvoltage crowbars or something equivalent, as required by the Intel ATX power supply spec, are more than fast enough and sufficient to shutdown a power supply without motherboard damage." The solution implemented and routinely used was SCR crowbars as even demonstrated in 1960s GE application manuals.

ATX specs define this protection with numbers in Paragraph 3.4.1. And then says, "The over-voltage sense circuitry and reference shall reside in packages that are separate and distinct from the regulator control circuitry and reference." How can this be when you believe it was not required?

Attempts at a cheapshot is irrelevant to the topic. Even generations ago, protection was always about where energy (ie hundreds of thousands of joules) dissipate. No tiny filter in a Tripplite provides that protection. Especially when the Tripplite is not earthed, can only absorb near zero energy, and does not claim to protect from the other and typically destructive surge. Quoting a misstatement from 12 years ago does not change over 100 years of well proven science.

Any facility that cannot have damage earths every incoming wire. Either directly (ie TV cable, satellite dish) maybe using the ground block. Or via a 'whole house' protector (ie AC electric, telephone). A protector or a direct wire is the connecting device to what actually does protection. Essential to protecting a household appliance or the OP's computer is a connection to and quality of an all so important single point earth ground. Reality does not change only because you do not like it. A protector (series or shunt mode) is only as effective as its earth ground. Protection is always about and defined by where that energy dissipates.

 

[bryanl]

Well I misspoke twelve years ago. It should have read, "Overvoltage crowbars or something equivalent, as required by the Intel ATX power supply spec, are more than fast enough and sufficient to shutdown a power supply without motherboard damage." The solution implemented and routinely used was SCR crowbars as even demonstrated in 1960s GE application manuals.

ATX specs define this protection with numbers in Paragraph 3.4.1. And then says, "The over-voltage sense circuitry and reference shall reside in packages that are separate and distinct from the regulator control circuitry and reference." How can this be when you believe it was not required?

Attempts at a cheapshot is irrelevant to the topic. Even generations ago, protection was always about where energy (ie hundreds of thousands of joules) dissipate. No tiny filter in a Tripplite provides that protection. Especially when the Tripplite is not earthed, can only absorb near zero energy, and does not claim to protect from the other and typically destructive surge. Quoting a misstatement from 12 years ago does not change over 100 years of well proven science.

I brought up your old quote only because it's consistent with what you still claim about crowbars. I've never seen evidence of crowbar circuitry in OEM or retail ATX PSUs, SCR or otherwise, including some old models on Intel's approved list. Server PSUs may be different, but I've never looked inside one. I'm somewhat familiar with the need for independent overvoltage protection even with switching power supplies since voltage references can lose their grounds, and optical isolators can fail in ways that increase voltage. No cheap shot was intended.

 

[westom]

I've never seen evidence of crowbar circuitry in OEM or retail ATX PSUs, SCR or otherwise, including some old models on Intel's approved list.

Then why is the requirement listed by numbers in ATX standards? Unfortunately, many computer assemblers do not know the difference between an ATX supply and an inferior thing selected only on dollars and watts. Many even foolishly assume more watts mean better quality.

Other requirements also exist so that, for example, the 12 volts rail does not end up less than the 5 volts. This defect can also damage a motherboard or disk drive. A failure that an ATX standard PSU would not create due to circuits routinely found in properly designed supplies. A failure that can exist because some supplies are as cheap as possible - to be marketed to naive computer assemblers who, for example, do not even look for specification sheets. And yet consider themselves 'experts'.

That crowbar or other protection is required by the ATX standard. Other missing functions (i.e. Power Good) can even result in data damage on a disk when power is lost unexpectedly. So many naive computer assemblers would blame the power loss rather than crappy hardware purchased on dollars and watts. Many never learn that unexpected power loss must never cause data destruction - when hardware meets ATX standards.

Examples of hardware violating ATX standards is traceable to computer assemblers who have no idea what a power supply is supposed to do. Yes, I also have seen many supplies missing the SCR crowbar (or equivalent). Because the supply is not ATX standard; is designed for a market of naïve and self proclaimed computer experts.


Same naivety also explains why two completely different devices - both called surge protectors &#8211; are routinely assumed to do protection. A protector adjacent to electronics can even make surge damage easier. A protector that makes the always required low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth should even protect from direct lightning strikes.

As with supplies, many recommend or purchase one only because hearsay recommends it. Or use word association. Protector sounds like protection. So it must do surge protection. Many have no idea that their supply violates ATX standards. Many have no idea that a protector adjacent to a computer and not connected low impedance to earth means no protection from the typically destructive type of surge. They hear the phrase surge protector. Then assume a high profit power strip does what only properly earthed protectors can accomplish.

ATX standard does not define a surge protector. But ATX standard does define some surge protection inside every computer. Protection that can be compromised or overwhelmed if the typically destructive type of surge is not earthed BEFORE entering a building.

 

[bryanl]

Yes, I also have seen many supplies missing the SCR crowbar (or equivalent).

What OEM or retail non-server ATX PSUs have you seen that had crowbars in them, SCR or other type? Brand, model.

 

[billyb0b]

skip a basic surge, invest in a decent UPS

 

[westom]

skip a basic surge, invest in a decent UPS

Why buy something that says it even does less protection? Did you read the UPS specifications? Or simply believe hearsay that a majority believe due to advertising and wild speculation? If a UPS is better protection, then the recommendation also provided manufacturer spec numbers that say so. No numbers were posted for a simple reason. Joules absorbed by a UPS may be even less than joules in a $10 power strip protector sold in WalMart.

Near zero joules in a UPS means advertising can claim surge protection. They just forget to mention it is near zero protection.

 

[Belial88]

Buy a decent line interactive UPS with it (assuming you don't have one) and you're good to go.

Why?

I have a budget here, and a UPS does not fit it.

The problem with those surge protector insurance coverages is actually getting them to pay. There's plenty of stories online about how whatever company has rejected their claim because of the fine print. I wouldn't depend on it.

For whole house protectors, Cutler Hammer aka Eaton is also an excellent choice. Some other good brands include Leviton, Square D, and Emerson Power.

This one is pretty nice:

That's insane. $130 is more than most of the parts on my computer. No way.

skip a basic surge, invest in a decent UPS

No.

I know it's really hard to get it through to you people, but it's pretty simple:

Best protection for $40 or less. I really dont care about my equipment that much to spend more. I don't. And, I care more about insurance that is recoverable. I am well aware of fine print, and from what I've seen I have seen ZERO STORIES OR EVIDENCE showing ANY company rejects claims that aren't ridiculous. A phone line or coax is not ridiculous fine print, it makes sense.

I think I'm going to buy the cheapest Utilitech surge protector at lowes, and if anything happens i'll ring up their insurance, that is known to pay out. I'm sure better protectors exist, but as long as it'll pay out to cover a $1000 computer and cheap that's much more important to me than good protector that doesn't pay out or is more expensive.

I may consider a sub-50 whole house protector but unfortunately no one here seems to understand the differences between the many models on the market or the fact I've clearly stated my budget many times. Quite frankly I've gotten very poor help here because no one listens to my requests. You do not tell someone saying they have $10,000 for a car to buy a ferrari, omg its a better car.

On a side note i'm surprised how so many high post count members here know very little about what they are talking about.

 

[Scipio Africanus]

Why?

I have a budget here, and a UPS does not fit it.


That's insane. $130 is more than most of the parts on my computer. No way.


No.

I know it's really hard to get it through to you people, but it's pretty simple:

Best protection for $40 or less.

I didn't see your budget issues but if your that tight with your budget, I probably wouldn't even bother with a whole house solution. Are you installing it yourself? An electrician costs money too. Remember your protecting your whole house, its worth it to actually pay say over $100.

Here's a half decent one for $30 at Home Depot that fits your budget:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...Device-SDSA1175/100209321?N=bm05#.UpS09ubikwA

Square D is a better brand than than Lowe's one you're looking at. Joules rating isn't great but hey, its cheap and at least from a reputable brand.

Otherwise get this strip for $40:

http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-ISO...ef=pd_sim_pc_6

Best budget surge protector strips out there. They are very well built with heavy duty components. All within your budget.

Cheapest one I would even bother getting is this for $20 (refurbed one):

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...on=refurbished

I'd go with the Tripp Lite personally but this is at least OK with half decent protection. Those really cheapy ones like $10 can literally melt down and/or cause a fire given a big enough surge. Good luck with getting the insurance payout for that.

So there you go. All in your budget. Good luck.

 

[imagoon]

I know it's really hard to get it through to you people, but it's pretty simple:

Best protection for $40 or less.

If you're going to be like that then here, free 100% protection:

Unplug it, don't plug it in. After all your moaning you could have ordered a surge suppressing power strip and been done with it. You even have been given several examples.

 

[Scipio Africanus]

Just remember that you still need one for coax and/or the phone line, as mentioned above. The whole house protector does jack if the surge comes in the coax / telco lines.

Yup, agreed. I just have coax myself and this is the cheapest I'd get for $20:

http://www.amazon.com/TII-Broadband-...ref=pd_sim_e_1

I personally use this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Polyphaser-Lightning-Supressor-450MHz-1450-MHz-/250371199609

Polyphaser is my preferred maker of coax protection. They make very heavy duty commercial/industrial grade stuff. I opened mine up and there was a very big MOV plus a few filtering elements. No idea whats in the Tii one, it looks small so I'm guessing a single large MOV or possibly a gas discharge tube?

Both these have to be grounded as well.

 

[Belial88]

^ That's interesting, how does it affect signal loss on the line? I've been having issues with that, even when I changed from splitter to single line straight to the room with the modem (which is at other end of house). I could buy that if it's really important.

I didn't see your budget issues but if your that tight with your budget, I probably wouldn't even bother with a whole house solution. Are you installing it yourself? An electrician costs money too. Remember your protecting your whole house, its worth it to actually pay say over $100.

Here's a half decent one for $30 at Home Depot that fits your budget:

I would have no problem installing a whole house protector myself. Nothing else in the house is worth protecting.

The HD protector you list is a great recommendation, thanks. What would offer more protection, having the whole home protector from squared or the isobar?

If you're going to be like that then here, free 100% protection:

This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 3150x2176.


Unplug it, don't plug it in. After all your moaning you could have ordered a surge suppressing power strip and been done with it. You even have been given several examples.

You are worse than westom, and he's clearly shown to be much more knowledgeable than you. It's pretty simple, where to put $40 or less for surge protection. Your inane responses are just ridiculous. IF YOUC ANT AFFORD A $1000 TIRES THAN DONT BOTHER GETTING A CAR'. Even when i'm driving a civic.

 

[imagoon]

You are worse than westom, and he's clearly shown to be much more knowledgeable than you. It's pretty simple, where to put $40 or less for surge protection. Your inane responses are just ridiculous. IF YOUC ANT AFFORD A $1000 TIRES THAN DONT BOTHER GETTING A CAR'. Even when i'm driving a civic.

I can tell you are not even reading your own thread. Why bother posting again then? For example, I never once told you had to get an expensive protector. Actually I think I mentioned that as long as it was a decent brand you would be fine. Yet you see "omg you have to get a $$$$ protector." Obviously you are not interested in help. You refuse to read your own post. Please remove the sand from your vagina and go to the store and buy your $40 surge protector. I mean does it always take you over a month to make a big decision to drop $40?

Lol at Westom "more knowledgeable." Feel free to go follow his "magicland." It is like the kool-aid... Some people are just not worth helping, like you. In this very thread there are at least 3 different people that have said that Westom has a limited and minimal understanding of surge suppression, but you are not even reading your own thread so you wouldn't know that.

 

[Belial88]

Wow way to overreact. You never said 'just get any decent brand' surge protector, that's a damn lie, and you never linked one or specified a recommendable brand even if you did.

The only examples I've been given is a few ISOBARs which are a bit out of price range.

I was just trolling with the westom comment, seriously though you two are extremely obnoxious and half this thread is him posting, and then you quoting him down 20 times (usually taking him out of context like posting 10 year old replies) with extremely condescending and inflammatory remarks. I think most people would agree that you two just seem like different sides to the same coin.

 

[imagoon]

Wow way to overreact. You never said 'just get any decent brand' surge protector, that's a damn lie, and you never linked one or specified a recommendable brand even if you did.

The only examples I've been given is a few ISOBARs which are a bit out of price range.

I was just trolling with the westom comment, seriously though you two are extremely obnoxious and half this thread is him posting, and then you quoting him down 20 times (usually taking him out of context like posting 10 year old replies) with extremely condescending and inflammatory remarks. I think most people would agree that you two just seem like different sides to the same coin.

Again, you haven't read you own post. I mentioned an ISObar that is $50MSRP. It is on sale regularly for sub $40. I'm sorry if that $10 breaks your bank. You can take it as the "different side of the coin" all you would like. If you had actually read the posts, the reason people are tearing him apart is he flat out wrong in at least 80% of his postings. The 20% does get right, he is right on.

Please show me where I linked to a 10 year old message again?

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=isobar

Cheapest one is $24.26, $34 if you want more outlets. $1000 dollar tires... right.

 

[Scipio Africanus]

^ That's interesting, how does it affect signal loss on the line? I've been having issues with that, even when I changed from splitter to single line straight to the room with the modem (which is at other end of house). I could buy that if it's really important.

I've had no issues with mine and the Tii should be about the same. They shouldn't affect the signal at all, they're basically a MOV or GDT attached to the cable line in parallel. There's nothing in between the signal.

I'd say its worth it for myself but for you, just consider what would happen. What's attached to your cable? Maybe a cable modem, a rental set top box or 2.. etc etc. Its possible it could fry a TV if you have it attached but most of us use a box.

I would have no problem installing a whole house protector myself. Nothing else in the house is worth protecting.

The HD protector you list is a great recommendation, thanks. What would offer more protection, having the whole home protector from squared or the isobar?

If you have no problem installing it, whole house is always better. The Isobar would buy you some line filtering over the whole house but again that's only for 1 spot in your house. The whole house is cheap insurance against a bigger deal like say a lineman doing something to cause a sudden surge etc.

The whole house unit I posted is likely nothing more than a MOV or a series of MOVs in parallel so they have a clamping voltage around 330v. So any spike smaller than 330v will get through. Most things around your house can take a hit this small but some studies so say years of many small surges can degrade or destroy electronics. What something like the Isobar will get you is a lower clamping voltage through a simple sine wave tracking circuit. Again, you may or may not care about this.

So bottom line, its more limited catastrophic protection for the whole house (330v+) or more complete protection for 1 spot. I'd go the whole house route.

There's some instructions on Home Depot's site too. Almost every whole house protector is meant to be installed outside the actual box so it means pushing through a punchout or using a metal drilling bit. I've seen people install these by just tossing the little protector inside the breaker box but not sure if that's a good idea and might break code.

 

[CM Phaedrus]

I never said ATX specifications 'require' SCR crowbars. ATX specs require a separate circuit that prevents overvoltage. Therefore most everry ATX compatible supply has SCR crowbars if not some other solution.

ATX spec requires that solution ... and defines it with numbers. Some ATX supplies do not have SCR crowbars. Since so many use naysaying to misrepresent themselves as informed and do not have basic electrical knowledge, the market is ripe for PSUs that violate ATX standards.

Even the original IBM PC had overvoltage protection. In that case, it used SCR crowbars.

Overvoltage protection was defacto standard even in PSUs before the IBM PC existed.

I would like to correct Westom on this fact. Industry standard OVP/UVP/etc is implemented via a protections chip such as the common PS223, which sends a logic high when a protection is tripped. This signal could in theory be sent to an SCR crowbar; however, in my experience working on PSUs between $20 and $500 MSRP, I have never encountered one with an SCR. EVERY ATX PSU I have ever worked on, connects the output of the protections chip to the EN pin of the PWM controller (through an inverter if necessary), which will shut the PSU down gracefully.

Shutting a PSU down through a crowbar requires a fair amount of engineering work to ensure that neither PSU nor the device under power is damaged. I can imagine relatively few situations in which a hard crowbar shutdown is preferable to a graceful shutdown in an ATX PSU, and I have never seen it implemented.


Edit:
Non-electronic protection is also provided on the input with a fuse and a MOV and/or TVS diode. This is enough to deal with all minor surges, and major surges are mitigated by those components plus the bridge rectifier + PFC circuitry (which boosts the 115/230VAC input to approx 400VDC, so a 20V surge becomes insignificant).

No ATX PSU will survive a direct or very close lightning strike; but all well-designed ATX PSUs with PFC will survive any local surge you throw at them.

 

[Belial88]

Again, you haven't read you own post. I mentioned an ISObar that is $50MSRP. It is on sale regularly for sub $40. I'm sorry if that $10 breaks your bank. You can take it as the "different side of the coin" all you would like. If you had actually read the posts, the reason people are tearing him apart is he flat out wrong in at least 80% of his postings. The 20% does get right, he is right on.

Please show me where I linked to a 10 year old message again?

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...eywords=isobar

Cheapest one is $24.26, $34 if you want more outlets. $1000 dollar tires... right.

Finally, was that so hard?

I'd say its worth it for myself but for you, just consider what would happen. What's attached to your cable? Maybe a cable modem, a rental set top box or 2.. etc etc. Its possible it could fry a TV if you have it attached but most of us use a box.

My modem, followed by router, to computer (wired).

If you have no problem installing it, whole house is always better. The Isobar would buy you some line filtering over the whole house but again that's only for 1 spot in your house. The whole house is cheap insurance against a bigger deal like say a lineman doing something to cause a sudden surge etc.

I really dont care about the rest of the stuff in the house. Nothing is plugged in except my pc lol.

That's great info though, I will possibly go whole house, need to look more into units and how my insurance would take it, and then just get the cheapest utilitech junk from lowes and have their insurance coverage on it.

 

[imagoon]

Finally, was that so hard?

Yeah so hard for you to read. I posted similar links back in October that you didn't read:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=35663218&postcount=32