SUV's get a bad rap!

[AaronP]

Today a car that gets approximately 27.5 mpg, like a Volkswagen New Beetle

yeah, well most people wouldn't want a cramped little POS like that. I'm 6'3 and I NEED a big car, SUV's are nice because they're easier to get into and out of, and the distance between my the seat and the floor is higher. I wish I had an SUV.

 

[docmanhattan]

<< Today a car that gets approximately 27.5 mpg, like a Volkswagen New Beetle

yeah, well most people wouldn't want a cramped little POS like that. I'm 6'3 and I NEED a big car, SUV's are nice because they're easier to get into and out of, and the distance between my the seat and the floor is higher. I wish I had an SUV. >>

I would have to disagree you. I've got an inch on you and I've found that a car's physical size does dictact the sitting height. While the roof of the car may be 6' or 7' feet off the ground, you have to step up a foot or so and end up getting the same amount of sitting height as you would in any mid-sized sedan.

My wife drives a 92' Celica and I hate getting out of it because I feel like I'm getting up from the floor, it's so low. However, my Accord is fine and other similar cars to be fine as well. It's those darn quasi-sports cars that make their seats 6 inches from the ground.

 

[andaval]

Good point, most people don't want a beetle -- therefore, they must buy SUVs. Of course, because people don't want beetles, all of the other reasons to not buy an SUV cease to exist. I understand that tall people might fit better in SUVs than really little cars. Before you buy an SUV, please look around and try to find something else you can fit in without all the problems of SUVs.

 

[ttn1]

I don't really care whether a person wants to drive an SUV or not. I just wish they would stay of my bumper on the highway.

I assume it is the sitting up high with better percieved control that causes alot of SUV drivers to tailgate.

I did think the whole Firestone tires fiasco was hilarious though. I can't believe my tires ripped off, I was only
driving 90 mph with all the luggage I could haul and attempted a violently fast lane change. That shouldn't
cause my tires to fly apart should it.

The other amusing part is one reason the tires were designed the way they were was to reduce noise.
Because people complained that the "safe" tires were too loud on their house movers.

Oh well, if you want to drive one quit whining. And I guess all the people that don't drive them should quit whining as well.

 

[andaval]

I just realized how many pro-choice people must be on this thread. If you feel like its your money and you should be able to buy and SUV if you want to and everyone else should just "stop whining," then you must feel like anyone who has the money to get an abortion should be able to, and if other people don't like it, then they can just not get their own abortion.

 

[BooneRebel]

<< Before you buy an SUV, please look around and try to find something else you can fit in without all the problems of SUVs. >>



...and with that, Andaval forms the "People Educating for Non-SUV Industry Sales" coalition.

The PENIS support group (as it is now commonly known) really has no impact on SUV sales, but they do bond very closely.

 

[ttn1]

Actually, I am personally anti-SUV, but I don't presume to tell people what they can and can't drive.

I'm just saying that there is way too much ill-concieved rhetoric, i.e. whining, on both sides of this subject.

 

[angusthermopyle]

Hmmmm, I'm not a Paramedic, I am single though. So I wouldn't mind having a nice lady toot my horn for me once in a while.

I believe that people should have the right to buy/drive whatever they wish. It is true however that SUV's really dont serve a very utalitarian purpose for most people who drive them.

As for those who mock "tree huggers". Whats wrong with being concerned about the massive damage we as a species do to this planet. The anti envirnomental attitude of many people puts me in mind of Nero fiddling while Rome burned. The bottom line is that this planet is our home, we have no where else to go if we destroy it by one means or another. As such its the duty of every person on this planet to try to preserve it.

 

[snooker]

<< If I am driving my Expedition, and have to slow down on a curve behind a sports car, does this mean the driver of the sports car should not be able to own his car since he is not using it to the full extent for which it was designed? This is a wholly baseless argument. >>




No, that means you need to obey laws (or common sense if no speed is posted) like the sports car was and slow down on curves;-)

Anyone knows a sports car can take a curve a heck of alot faster and easier then an SUV and if the sports car was going too slow, think of it this way. Maybe he saved you from killing yourself and/or others by taking a curve too fast and rolling over.

 

[PullMyFinger]

Matt, learn to read, I never said your commute was only on one type of road; "Actually, my commute is a nice cross between country, small town, freeway, & city driving", I predicted that you took nearly the same route each day and then based your opinion of all other drivers in the US off this limited cross section. And how am I putting words in your mouth? I took those words right from your previous posts, again learn to read or at least remember.


Andaval, you managed to base all of your facts on the information from 1 web site. Very impressive.
'If you ever looked at things from other people's point of view, you would understand this". Maybe you should take your own advice. I bought my SUV to protect my family from other drivers' mistakes. From your statements, you must drive a micro-car solely for the purpose of protecting others in the likely event that you would run into them. I at least can state that I looked at this topic from both points of view, my other car is an Audi. Actually, I probably know more about being exposed to other peoples "dangerous" vehicles than you because I've ridden motorcycles on the street for the past 12 years without ever getting into an accident.

Your statistics of SUV vs Car deaths fails to list one very important fact; who was at fault for the accident. If the car was at fault, then tough sh!t if the passengers died, maybe they should have been paying more attention. Your scenario is the same as a trespasser who falls on your property and gets hurt. It doesn't matter that they were breaking the law, you as the homeowner are at fault for not protecting them while they broke the law.

"Farmers Insurance has raised liability rates by 5 to 16 percent on SUVs and is providing passenger car owners a discount of 5 to 19 percent in some states". That's one insurance company's choice and it's the SUV owners who are footing more of the bill, so you tiny-car drivers should be happy about that. But lets look at that discount for cars, that's a loophole, exactly the same thing you are whining about regarding fuel economy. So get your facts straight about fuel economy, manufacturers are not given a "free ride" like you dream they are. All US auto manufacturers must meet the minimum fleet average mileage, ie the CAFE standard. Therefore the more gas guzzling trucks and SUV's they produce, the more high mileage vehicles they must produce, in order to maintain the average fleet mileage. Gas guzzler tax is a completely different topic, a-hole.

And just because SUV's are allowed to put out higher levels of pollutants does not mean they actually do put out higher levels of pollutants. My Explorer regularly gets the same or lower emissions levels as my other car (Audi). And look at the CO output levels of any newer vehicle (SUV's included), some scientists have theorized that it would be nearly impossible to commit suicide through CO poisoning using a modern vehicle. (And no, I'm not going to give it a try for you)

"Finally, it is important to note that SUVs are contributing to our dependence on imported oil. Currently, more than half of the oil we use is imported". And do you know why we currently import 50% of our oil? Because we make so much more by selling our US produced oil to Asian and European countries rather than selling it inside the US borders. Here's a quote from your favorite website (harpers.org): "Percentage of oil imported by the U.S. last year that came from Persian Gulf countries : 23". So basically we could tell the Persian Gulf countries to go take a flying f#ck and we'd still be able to meet demand because we could divert our overseas exports back home. The oil produced in the rest of North America could be imported more cheaply than Middle Eastern oil thanks to NAFTA. Why don't you lobby your congressman/woman to do this, take the bull by the horns, put your money where your mouth is instead of whining that it's everyone else's problem/fault.

And I don't understand how ANYBODY could consider it Un-American to buy an American vehicle (which the majority of SUV's are, of course I'm generalizing just like you).

 

[BooneRebel]

Summary for those of you just joining the conversation:

Non-SUV owner: *sniffle!* I don't like you very much.

SUV owner: Uhm, OK. *shrugs shoulders, rolls eyes*

 

[andaval]

PullMyFinger - I thought using more than one website would confuse your limited intellect. Unfortunately, that apparently was still too much for you too handle. I guess with quotes like this the website was unfairly biased against your side: "The SUV Info Link is here to give you more information, so that you can decide what type of vehicle matches your needs. The vehicles we drive today will greatly influence the safety of our roads and the quality of our environment. Friends of the Earth has no interest in taking away anyone's right to own whatever vehicle they choose, or in telling anyone what they should be driving." I think deep down, you understand that you are wrong, but for egotistical reasons you can't admit it. If you had a real argument, you wouldn't complain that other people aren't referencing varied enough sources for you (have many references have you posted, Mr. Hypocrite?) You wouldn't be running around calling people assholes. You wouldn't be attributing things to me that I never said. But of course, you have no argument. I'll try to explain once more, using small words so that you might understand.

1. The facts on the website came from dozens of sources. However, where they come from has no bearing on their veracity. (oops, I mean whether they are right or wrong). Of course, your decisions are based on rhetoric (hope that's not too big for you) that you want to believe, not facts.

2. You claim that your SUV makes your family safer. Obviously, you didn't even look at the (single!!) website I posted, as this is not a foregone conclusion. Even if this were true, it would only be true as long as most people were still driving smaller cars. If it got to the point where everyone had SUVs, the roads would be more unsafe for everyone, because the only safety advantage to SUVs (heavier weight) would be gone, leaving everyone with rigid cars prone to rollovers. This is similar to a problem ranchers had and is a common logical fallacy. You can give your cattle hormones to make them bigger and make more money, but when everybody does it, you don't have an advantage anymore because everyone's cattle weigh the same, and you are losing money because you have to use the hormones to stay merely competitive. This is why other people have alluded to SUVs being similar to an arms race.

3. My scenario is nothing like a burglar falling on your property, no matter how much you want it to be. If it were, there would be successful lawsuits against SUV owners involved in accidents regardless of fault. Thanks for providing those sources. Oh wait, you haven't provided any sources at all... It is still not like having a burglar alarm. SUVs endanger other people on the road. I'm sorry you appear to be unable to grasp logical arguments. Try reading this post more than once, it might help. SUVs cause accidents too. (they do in fact have poor handling and a longer braking distance).

4. As far as insurance goes, if you want to pay higher insurance, there is no moral problem there. Not all the facts on that site have moral implications. Some are just to inform people about hidden costs associated with SUVs. However, if you want to talk about gas-guzzling, try looking at the same single!!! website I referenced you to earlier. "However, all of the major fleet-wide improvements in vehicle fuel economy occurred from the middle 1970s through the late 1980s, but it has been consistently falling since then. In fact, average new vehicle fuel economy fell in 2000 to 24 mpg, its lowest level 20 years." Wait, this contradicts your claim of CAFE standards. Let me just look at YOUR source... wait where is it????

5.



<< some scientists have theorized that it would be nearly impossible to commit suicide through CO poisoning using a modern vehicle. >>

Source? Oh wait, I forgot... While we're on sources though: Federal law gives heavy sport utility vehicles permission to emit higher levels of toxic and noxious pollution - carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons, and nitrogen oxides. Sport utility vehicles can spew 30 percent more carbon monoxide and hydrocarbons and 75 percent more nitrogen oxides than passenger cars. These combustion pollutants contribute to eye and throat irritation, coughing, nausea, dizziness, fatigue, confusion and headaches. Hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides are precursors to ground level ozone, which causes asthma and lung damage. SOURCE Won't you please reconsider trying it yourself?

6.

<< Because we make so much more by selling our US produced oil to Asian and European countries rather than selling it inside the US borders. ...So basically we could tell the Persian Gulf countries to go take a flying f#ck and we'd still be able to meet demand because we could divert our overseas exports back home. The oil produced in the rest of North America could be imported more cheaply than Middle Eastern oil thanks to NAFTA. >>

Source for this? Oh wait, I forgot again...

7. Oh my god! A source! Wait a minute... the lone source you have posted gives this "Percentage of oil imported by the U.S. last year that came from Persian Gulf countries : 23" Since your argument rests on premises which you have no sources for, this is the only valid part of your argument. Taken by itself, it doesn't seem to help your case, does it?

8. As far as un-American goes, I consider the needless endangerment of other citizens and selfish attitude associated with SUVs to be un-American. This is just my opinion, however. On the other hand, almost everything else I've said is fact, not opinion. Sorry you cna't deal with it.

Thanks for playing, though...

 

[andaval]

Here's another way to summarize it:

Non-SUV owner: Wow, that's a large SUV you have there. You realize that it makes you and others less safe, pollutes much more than cars, right? Do you ever take it off-road?

SUV owner: I like to pretend the bad things don't exist, and that I don't have a moral obligation to not needlessly endanger other people. Besides, sitting up high makes me feel like my penis is more than 2 inches long. As far as off-roading goes, just last weekend I drove it onto my lawn to wash it, so yeah...

 

[MadRat]

Give it up PMF, you suck at debate. Andaval and ThisIsMatt creamated your limited point of view, your baseless argument, and your fragile little ego. Obviously your resorting to name calling has been a direct result from your bruised little ego. Its making you look more and more like an ass the more you squirm. Just give it up.

 

[PlatinumGold]

yeah, well most people wouldn't want a cramped little POS like that. I'm 6'3 and I NEED a big car, SUV's are nice because they're easier to get into and out of, and the distance between my the seat and the floor is higher. I wish I had an SUV.


I think this is one of the biggest fallacies going that SUV's are soo much bigger INTERNALLY than a standard sedan/station wagon.

a friend of mine bought an SUV a few years ago because he had 2 kids. he realized after owning one for about 2 years that his HONDA CIVIC had the same amount of USABLE INTERNAL space as his SUV. So he finally got over his IMAGE (HIS WORD NOT MINE) issue and traded the SUV in for a Minivan. GUESS WHAT. This was what he needed all along (except the image thing of course).

Now if you do need more space buy a MINIVAN or buy a REAL LARGE SUV, (Expedition etc.).

 

[docmanhattan]

<< yeah, well most people wouldn't want a cramped little POS like that. I'm 6'3 and I NEED a big car, SUV's are nice because they're easier to get into and out of, and the distance between my the seat and the floor is higher. I wish I had an SUV.


I think this is one of the biggest fallacies going that SUV's are soo much bigger INTERNALLY than a standard sedan/station wagon.

a friend of mine bought an SUV a few years ago because he had 2 kids. he realized after owning one for about 2 years that his HONDA CIVIC had the same amount of USABLE INTERNAL space as his SUV. So he finally got over his IMAGE (HIS WORD NOT MINE) issue and traded the SUV in for a Minivan. GUESS WHAT. This was what he needed all along (except the image thing of course).

Now if you do need more space buy a MINIVAN or buy a REAL LARGE SUV, (Expedition etc.). >>


EXACTLY!! I sat in a 90 Civic hatchback once and was amazed at the amount of leg room and head clearance i had. There are a lot of cars that lack the sitting height and surprisingly, Honda's have been pretty good with that. Go figure?

 

[PlatinumGold]

doc

i had a civic way back in '84. man that's probably before a lotta the kids on this forum were born. anyway, ok car but HUGE interior. small exterior but interior was literaly cavernous(sp).

 

[PullMyFinger]

MadRat,
Um, you really showed me

. What exactly do you have to contribute to this conversation? Oh yeah, NOTHING. That's ok, you're probably an SUV hater too, even though you don't own one. As far as getting creamated (wow, what mastery of the English language you possess, when do you move on to the 10th grade?), that's your point of view. Just because I don't buy into the "SUV's by themselves are dangerous and everybody should sign a document stating such" philosophy, that means that I'm wrong? STFU. And the responses here have yet to bruise anything on me. Yeehaw, GO CORN-HOLERS!

Ok Andaval,
You must be desparate for attention. You bring up pro-choice in an automobile thread, you seem facinated with the length of SUV drivers penis's, what gives, does your mind wander that much or is noboby giving you any lovins?

I can't help it that you only know small words, maybe you should try increasing your vocabulary. Now as far as your sole source of biased information up until your last post, look at the title of that website "The SUV Info Link", seems harmless enough. But lets see who created that site, um, that would be "Friends of the Earth". Gee, that sounds like the start of unbiased information

. And if we continued your initial quote from the introduction page of the website you will see that in the same paragraph where they state "we don't want to steer you away from SUV's, we want to help you make the right choice blah blah" they state "Purchasing an SUV can be expensive -- adding thousands of dollars in gas bills and operating costs over the life of the vehicle". But they don't want to persuade you to change your mind, give me a break. But wait, if we dig just a little deeper, we find even more blatant evidence of hiporcacy ON THE TITLE PAGE "Roadhog - Any of several vehicle types exhibiting excessive size, creating dangerous highway conditions, and/or emitting polution". Ha, ha, by that very definition, EVERY VEHICLE (except electric vehicles) is a road hog, ha, ha. Wow, you sure know how to choose a website to represent your "facts". If your wonder site of information was truly interested in providing assistance for making the right vehicle choice (rather than soley bashing SUV's) it would have information about the benefits and detriments of all different types of vehicles. Did you get your "SUV's can save your family" bumper sticker? Oh that's right, they only sell "Road hog" bumper stickers on your favorite site?

So what about fuel economy you say? Glad you asked. The site you linked to here has a chart half way down the page which shows the average fuel economy of cars and trucks. Using that graph, don't you find it odd that in the last 13 years, while everyone has been bitching about the dismal fuel mileage of SUV's, the average fuel mileage of cars has not risen? And I see you still have fallen into the "if they are allowed to, then they will" trap regarding emissions. Do you remember my comment that most vehicles don't even come close to their allowed emissions levels when in proper tune? Well here is your proof, the two image files are my emissions data for the Explorer and Audi. Look at the emissions levels and the allowable levels, they kinda contradict what you have been spewing about "SUV's are allowed to create X% more emissions than cars". The only test in which the Explorer produced more emissions was the NOX, and at that it was only 20% higher, all of this from an engine that is nearly twice the displacement of my Audi. And in every category, the SUV was allowed to emit fewer emissions. I don't know where your web site dug up their facts but mine are here in print. So why don't you emissions haters try to convince all of the under developed contries to implement emissions standards for their vehicles. Making SUV's in the US which get 15% better fuel economy isn't even a drop in the bucket on a global environmental scale.

You seem to fail again when stating the facts of safety. Maybe you could check out this site for a truely unbiased outlook on crash worthiness.

See, I can find web sites just like you, isn't the search engine technology amazing. And I have yet to post a pro-SUV/anti-small car link. (Ok, I couldn't resist, here's one). And what the hell are all of you fear mongers complaining about crash worthiness, look at these pictures. Hell the ricer's roof didn't even cave in.

I guess the only way to shut you whiney candy @sses up is if every SUV owner went out and bought a 4 wheel drive 4 door Chevy pickup. That way I won't be driving a dangerous SUV, I won't be mis-using my SUV, and I wouldn't be "loop holing" out of fuel economy requirements because I'd be driving a truck, and we all know that trucks aren't the problem, it's those damned SUV's.

Andaval, ThisIsMatt, and now MadRat, I grow tired of picking apart your reasoning as to why I should give up my vehicle and buy an econobox. I personally have much better things to do like spend time with my family and play with my daughter. I honestly don't hate anyone here on AnadTech, but the narrow minded views of the SUV's = Evil crowd have reminded me as to why I spend most of my time over in the Hot Deals section. As far as I'm concerned, I've made my point, you feel you've made your point and the people who read this thread will make their own decisions. I won't be checking back to this thread (gee I wonder if someone will chime in with "good"), so whatever you have to say feel free, just remember it will have no effect on me . Have a good one.

 

[MadRat]

<<I honestly don't hate anyone here on AnadTech, but the narrow minded views of the SUV's = Evil crowd have reminded me as to why I spend most of my time over in the Hot Deals section.>>

Awww, poor little fella got his feelings hurt. Poor baby can't handle being wrong. Poor fella resorts to name calling, tosses up his arms in frustration when he runs out of facts, and runs away from the trouble. Go lurk in Hot Deals where nobody reacts to your foul-mouthing, loser.

<<As far as I'm concerned, I've made my point, you feel you've made your point and the people who read this thread will make their own decisions. I won't be checking back to this thread (gee I wonder if someone will chime in with "good"), so whatever you have to say feel free, just remember it will have no effect on me . Have a good one.>>

Yeah, you've shown alot of class with your trashtalk, bozo. You're probably better off taking your macho SUV-driving attitude somewhere its appreciated. You left, so it looks like it had a real powerful effect on you. I just hope you don't avoid a ditch by ramming that big SUV of yours into some little hardworking redneck because you can survive the collision... after all you care about survival more than the redneck. Oh, aren't you special.

 

[AndrewR]

Ok, let's settle this already.

SUVs suck.
Cars suck.
Buy a pick-up.

 

[LAUST]

<< Ok, let's settle this already.

SUVs suck.
Cars suck.
Buy a pick-up. >>


Allright!! you get a 10

 

[andaval]

I just found out he posted again -- In case you can't resist and come back PMF,

1. I don't understand only small words. I unsuccessfully tried to use only small words to aid your comprehension of my argument.

2. "As far as getting creamated (wow, what mastery of the English language you possess, when do you move on to the 10th grade?)"
"hiporcacy" Ironic that you would misspell this word because:

3. You claim my site is biased (but don't refute any of their claims) and then link to your site: www.civicsux.com. Oooh, touch&eacute;.
"Purchasing an SUV can be expensive -- adding thousands of dollars in gas bills and operating costs over the life of the vehicle" Do you dispute this?

4. You don't understand basic logic. If your two vehicles produce less than the allowed emissions, that doesn't imply that A. all SUVs produce less than allowed OR 2. The allowed emission laws aren't set at higher levels for SUVs. Your "proof" consists of one data point from a questionable source. For example what is the margin of error? You don't know. This is hardly proof in any sense of the word.

5. "Making SUV's in the US which get 15% better fuel economy isn't even a drop in the bucket on a global environmental scale." Do you have any reasoning for this? Probably not...

6. I'm glad you don't hate anyone here, and I don't hate you, but I have no idea how you got tired of "picking apart my reasoning," as I don't recall a single example. You should work on your debating endurance if you can't even get one rep.

7. I never said SUVs were evil. It would be pointless to ascribe morality to inanimate (you know what I mean) objects. People who use them to supposedly improve their safety at the expense of others, without regard for the environment, or any need for off-road capability, have a faulty moral compass.

 

[Ultima]

<< I just realized how many pro-choice people must be on this thread. If you feel like its your money and you should be able to buy and SUV if you want to and everyone else should just "stop whining," then you must feel like anyone who has the money to get an abortion should be able to, and if other people don't like it, then they can just not get their own abortion. >>



I'm pro-choice, but I still don't like SUV's.

 

[b0mbrman]

A bad rap? You mean like anything by Vanilla Ice?

 

[andaval]

Ultima - Me too. I was trying to point out that if you think SUVs are ok based on a "it's my right to do whatever I want argument, then logically you should be pro-choice." I am guessing that most SUV owners are republican and anti-choice, and therefore hypocritical. I don't think there is any logical inconsistency in being pro-choice and anti-SUV, just the other way around.

b0mbrman - Not only does Vanilla Ice rap bad, he fights like a girl