[sweclockers] AMD coming out with ARM soc for tablets with GCN graphics

[Idontcare]

Mantle is necessary. DX11+ is all about MS and their desire/attempt to control "all things compute". OpenGL failed because it didn't have the necessary backing and business compunction to succeed in the face of a virtual monopoly the likes of MS.

AMD will probably succeed because they have far more compunction, far more to lose if it fails, and MS is far weaker now than before due to the software competition provided by Google (Android) and Apple (iOS) and the app environment created in their wake.

 

[krumme]

They're making a lot of PR-stunt type moves, but until they're consistently profitable and growing, it's mostly just smoke and mirrors to try to keep its stock price up as it continues to sell and lease-back property

Haha. Well that could be the case if they wernt so broke financially. Then doing tricks like they did 2 years ago postponing bad results. Naa they are at the end of the road. And it looks like that is excactly what was needed to change them doing the same old stuff they have done unsuccesfully for 30 years. How it took them so long to radically change strategy can be difficult to understand. But its very much a human thing to do for all of us - also as individuals.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Mantle is necessary. DX11+ is all about MS and their desire/attempt to control "all things compute". OpenGL failed because it didn't have the necessary backing and business compunction to succeed in the face of a virtual monopoly the likes of MS.

AMD will probably succeed because they have far more compunction, far more to lose if it fails, and MS is far weaker now than before due to the software competition provided by Google (Android) and Apple (iOS) and the app environment created in their wake.

A few problems. Mantle is closed, Mantle only works on GCN. GCN is a niche market, even with consoles combined it doesnt look good. But again, consoles dont use Mantle either.

Its a rerun of the classic 3DNow!, SSE5 and so on.

 

[MightyMalus]

x86 is an instruction set architecture, not a microarchitecture.

So? Its still the same as CUDA, DX and OGL. An API on top of an architecture.

A few problems. Mantle is closed, Mantle only works on GCN. GCN is a niche market, even with consoles combined it doesnt look good. But again, consoles dont use Mantle either.

Its a rerun of the classic 3DNow!, SSE5 and so on.

GCN is a niche market? Well, if you consider PS4 and X1 and every GPU GCN sold by AMD an insignificant number... then why does the iPhone sells numbers even matter to anyone? In the console market alone, if it does not get worse, there will be 156+ Million GCN console products.(Based on current sells of PS3 and X360)

And where is this "console's don't use Mantle either" from?

To my knowledge, consoles have always had lower level API's, not just DX and OGL, this is just the first time that it will work with PC's also.

Proof of your claims?

 

[ShintaiDK]

there will be 156+ Million GCN console products.(Based on current sells of PS3 and X360)

Yes, 7-10 years from now. Assuming all consoles are still in use and working.

Oh, and you do know Mantle is not even completed? They dont expect to be before late 2014 or 2015. No specs, no SDK.

 

[MightyMalus]

Yes, 7-10 years from now. Assuming all consoles are still in use and working.

Oh, and you do know Mantle is not even completed? They dont expect to be before late 2014 or 2015. No specs, no SDK.

It is still a market and that's just the console side of things.

Proof? Also, there's a product using it, so, it "works" and is "usable", but, its understandable to think that it will be "locked" until finished or simply add it by an update. It is an API, once again. Which is something that the 360 did with XNA and Indie dev, and something that X1 claims to be doing once again "later" by making each "box" a developer platform.

I can't seriously believe that you believe yourself...as if technology hasn't changed in the past decade.

EDIT:

I still would like to see the proof, I'm just going by logic and the Mantle slides shown.

(Remember when Intel updated its Drivers and unlocked more features on the same old iGPU? Same exact thing. Which is why I'm skeptical about everything against it. Its nothing new, it just works on PC's because of GCN. That's why its "special", but, its not "woah" or "wow", its more like..."This is obvious and about freaking time!")

 

[Erenhardt]

Yes, 7-10 years from now. Assuming all consoles are still in use and working.

Oh, and you do know Mantle is not even completed? They dont expect to be before late 2014 or 2015. No specs, no SDK.

Consoles have always been a niche market that gets crappy ports from master race platform

 

[MightyMalus]

Consoles have always been a niche market that gets crappy ports from master race platform

That's another thing, if consoles are niche, imagine PC gaming, where Steam is "only" about 10-15% the current size of the console market.

People really don't see the numbers.

Putting the numbers, 360 and PS3 are at 78 million each, and the Wii is at 100 Million. How many Steam accounts are there? 54 Million(Maybe 56 Million in 2013.)

256 Million > 56 Million
(And 156 million could be PS4 and X1, GCN, in the next few years, if the market stays the same.)

If Steam matters, GCN matters more.
If iPhones matter, GCN matters more.
If iPads matter, GCN matters more.

AMD is putting GCN "everywhere" just like Intel is putting x86 "everywhere".

And this is a good thing for AMD. Everyone is really already fragmenting themselves, except on the web side of things.

 

[Dresdenboy]

That family was also a wierd misfit in all the segments it represent.

...

 

[Erenhardt]

That's another thing, if consoles are niche, imagine PC gaming, where Steam is "only" about 10-15% the current size of the console market.

People really don't see the numbers.

Putting the numbers, 360 and PS3 are at 78 million each, and the Wii is at 100 Million. How many Steam accounts are there? 54 Million(Maybe 56 Million in 2013.)

256 Million > 56 Million
(And 156 million could be PS4 and X1, GCN, in the next few years, if the market stays the same.)

If Steam matters, GCN matters more.
If iPhones matter, GCN matters more.
If iPads matter, GCN matters more.

AMD is putting GCN "everywhere" just like Intel is putting x86 "everywhere".

And this is a good thing for AMD. Everyone is really already fragmenting themselves, except on the web side of things.

That was not serious. I was mocking with Shin

 

[MightyMalus]

That was not serious. I was mocking with Shin

I know, was adding a different perspective. More, specific and with current numbers. :twisted:

 

[ShintaiDK]

That's another thing, if consoles are niche, imagine PC gaming, where Steam is "only" about 10-15% the current size of the console market.

People really don't see the numbers.

Putting the numbers, 360 and PS3 are at 78 million each, and the Wii is at 100 Million. How many Steam accounts are there? 54 Million(Maybe 56 Million in 2013.)

256 Million > 56 Million
(And 156 million could be PS4 and X1, GCN, in the next few years, if the market stays the same.)

If Steam matters, GCN matters more.
If iPhones matter, GCN matters more.
If iPads matter, GCN matters more.

AMD is putting GCN "everywhere" just like Intel is putting x86 "everywhere".

And this is a good thing for AMD. Everyone is really already fragmenting themselves, except on the web side of things.

Not sure why you want to drag Steam into it. They are just one of many that just sell PC games. Not to mention the rest of your completely irrational form of arguments.

PS and Xbox might sell 10 million each in average per year. PCs sell almost 400 million.

 

[MightyMalus]

Not sure why you want to drag Steam into it. They are just one of many that just sell PC games. Not to mention the rest of your completely irrational form of arguments.

PS and Xbox might sell 10 million each in average per year. PCs sell almost 400 million.

Because the people that care about graphics are gamers or professionals. Yes, its niche, but compared to what? Like everything else, its relevancy and value depends on the size of its market. And Mantle's market, GCN's market, is big and will be huge.

Or in another way, how is judging a gaming API, in a gaming market, irrational? You know, to keep things short. ()

 

[ShintaiDK]

Because the people that care about graphics are gamers or professionals. Yes, its niche, but compared to what? Like everything else, its relevancy and value depends on the size of its market. And Mantle's market, GCN's market, is big and will be huge.

Or in another way, how is judging a gaming API, in a gaming market, irrational? You know, to keep things short. ()

Looking on Steam numbers. Around 10% got GCN. Thats a niche.

And by the time all those consoles are sold. GCN is hopefully replaced and Mantle will not work on new dGPUs.

I dont think people backing Mantle even thought about the long term issues. Not to mention any kind of compability issues. Because its a closed party. AMD simply attempts to get a gaming monopoly. not to mention the ability to control any future developments, if any. makes you think, specially when AMDs graphics and visual division that also covers consoles made a flat NILL in Q2 in terms of profit.

 

[frozentundra123456]

That's another thing, if consoles are niche, imagine PC gaming, where Steam is "only" about 10-15% the current size of the console market.

People really don't see the numbers.

Putting the numbers, 360 and PS3 are at 78 million each, and the Wii is at 100 Million. How many Steam accounts are there? 54 Million(Maybe 56 Million in 2013.)

256 Million > 56 Million
(And 156 million could be PS4 and X1, GCN, in the next few years, if the market stays the same.)

If Steam matters, GCN matters more.
If iPhones matter, GCN matters more.
If iPads matter, GCN matters more.

AMD is putting GCN "everywhere" just like Intel is putting x86 "everywhere".

And this is a good thing for AMD. Everyone is really already fragmenting themselves, except on the web side of things.

It depends on what market you look at. In the gaming market, amd has discrete cards, and will have the new consoles, so will have the vast majority of that market.

However, in the overall scheme of things, that is a very niche market. I don't know how many PCs are sold per year, but I think that even in a down market, PC sales in one year are probably equal to the expected sales of both consoles over a several year period. Not to mention tablets and smart phones. So I do give credit to amd for finding a niche and exploiting it, but it is a small part of the overall market, and by all estimates, not a particularly profitable one.

 

[IlllI]

about time. they should have started making ventures into the tablet market a year ago or more

 

[MightyMalus]

Looking on Steam numbers. Around 10% got GCN. Thats a niche.

Yes, but that is still of a total of 56 million. Nothing, compared to the Sony and MS market that there will be. Consider that both Sony and MS would have to lose about 60% of their current market for them to be at Steams level, still making GCN/Mantle more relevant than any other gaming tech, for high end games.

And by the time all those consoles are sold. GCN is hopefully replaced and Mantle will not work on new dGPUs.

Its an API on top of an architecture. Just like all other API's in the world. And just like the rest, it can be modified, improved and updated. So, I really don't get the logic here.

I dont think people backing Mantle even thought about the long term issues. Not to mention any kind of compability issues. Because its a closed party. AMD simply attempts to get a gaming monopoly. not to mention the ability to control any future developments, if any. makes you think, specially when AMDs graphics and visual division that also covers consoles made a flat NILL in Q2 in terms of profit.

So, you suggest...erm? I have yet to see an open system that works or is relevant.

but it is a small part of the overall market, and by all estimates, not a particularly profitable one.

Agree till the last bit. Games are a profitable market, if you are lucky or make a great game. That's why they still keep being made.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Its an API on top of an architecture. Just like all other API's in the world. And just like the rest, it can be modified, improved and updated. So, I really don't get the logic here.

I am quite aware of your logic.

There has been a lot of speculation regarding AMD's new Mantle low-level API, specifically regarding if it's open or not, meaning can Nvidia & Intel add support to Mantle if they wish ? the official answer from AMD's Robert Hallock, Enthusiast Graphics Marketing Manager is a definitive NO.

Tech Fan@ic . ‏
@Thracks is MANTLE open source ?
Details



Robert Hallock ‏

@GnrlKhalid No. It is an API for the industry-standard GCN Architecture and its specific ISA, done at the request of game developers.


So not only is MANTLE AMD specific, it's also architecture specific, so it's only compatible with Graphics Core Next (GCN) based products, that's the 7000 series and up for discrete graphics, Kaveri & later for APUs.

So the day GCN goes out, Mantle goes out.

Yes, but that is still of a total of 56 million. Nothing, compared to the Sony and MS market that there will be. Consider that both Sony and MS would have to lose about 60% of their current market for them to be at Steams level, still making GCN/Mantle more relevant than any other gaming tech, for high end games.

I assume you only wish to focus on Steam users as the only PC gaming users. Since your argumentation goes severely south if you had to use PC gaming numbers instead. Steam however, can be used to see somewhat average trends.

 

[Dresdenboy]

Not sure why you want to drag Steam into it. They are just one of many that just sell PC games. Not to mention the rest of your completely irrational form of arguments.

PS and Xbox might sell 10 million each in average per year. PCs sell almost 400 million.

What's the percentage of PCs used for gaming with enough performance to play at least WoT?

 

[MightyMalus]

So the day GCN goes out, Mantle goes out.

What is stopping AMD from doing Mantle 2 on GCN++? That's my logic. Its an API! Look at the other API's. ISA's have changed thru the years, yet API's keep getting updated to run in them. What is the difference? Its just an API made by AMD which promises support for all GCN ISA's, which by the way, we at GCN 2.0 now. What if GCN is the last ISA for AMD and it just keeps improving to 3.0, 4.0, 5.0, etc..?

I assume you only wish to focus on Steam users as the only PC gaming users. Since your argumentation goes severely south if you had to use PC gaming numbers instead. Steam however, can be used to see somewhat average trends.

I'm considering Steam mostly because its where most PC gamers are at, that would care about hardware. It is the main "PC Gamer" community, or it seems to be.

If I wanted to point out the best "target" I would say screw hardware, aim at the browser instead. But hardware wise, you pick and concentrate on one of the fragments. Or try to hit a few at once.

I'm pretty sure NV will do this too, you'll see. Actually, they could have already. But they are waiting on their ARM chip to be ready. IMHO

 

[cytg111]

Mantle is a brilliant move.

With most PC games being console ports, consoles running AMDs hardware, they can stay competetive on the gaming front with lesser hardware than the competition.

I would like a 10 core haswell running 10GHz+ .. but I aint most people. If people can run their office apps, browse the net, run a flash game or add - AND play the same games as the consoles, then PC buyers will be very happy.

That is Mantles promise - a catalyst for the "APU" franchise. With much lesser hardware, cheaper hardware, you'll get to play the console ports on your favorite AMD APU.

I can see the adds allready "Play GTA VI with this AMD APU xxxx Box for only 99.99$ - Mantle patch included"

Apparantly someone put brains back in AMD.

-loosing a war on the CPU front
-lagging behind on the GPU front

Getting the console deals and put this move in play .. Brains!

 

[ShintaiDK]

What is stopping AMD from doing Mantle 2 on GCN++? That's my logic. Its an API! Look at the other API's. ISA's have changed thru the years, yet API's keep getting updated to run in them. What is the difference? Its just an API made by AMD which promises support for all GCN ISA's, which by the way, we at GCN 2.0 now. What if GCN is the last ISA for AMD and it just keeps improving to 3.0, 4.0, 5.0, etc..?

The whole benefit of Mantle dies if it is to be cross ISA compatible. Then we can just as well stay with OpenGL and DirectX.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Yes, but that is still of a total of 56 million. Nothing, compared to the Sony and MS market that there will be. Consider that both Sony and MS would have to lose about 60% of their current market for them to be at Steams level, still making GCN/Mantle more relevant than any other gaming tech, for high end games.



Its an API on top of an architecture. Just like all other API's in the world. And just like the rest, it can be modified, improved and updated. So, I really don't get the logic here.



So, you suggest...erm? I have yet to see an open system that works or is relevant.



Agree till the last bit. Games are a profitable market, if you are lucky or make a great game. That's why they still keep being made.

I wasnt talking about the games themselves. I was referring to the margin on the console APUs relative to desktop/server/mobile cpus.

 

[cytg111]

The whole benefit of Mantle dies if it is to be cross ISA compatible. Then we can just as well stay with OpenGL and DirectX.

Truth to both sides AND there is middleground to be had. Brilliant move yes, without issues? No.
Going closer to the metal like this means you'll get a larger codebase for iterations.. that could get messy over time. - I have a feeling the AMD is more worried about "right now" than "over time".

 

[MightyMalus]

The whole benefit of Mantle dies if it is to be cross ISA compatible.

Erm...why? How does that make it different from, say, CUDA?

Then we can just as well stay with OpenGL and DirectX.

Well no, cause console games use different versions of those API's or console only Extensions and/or along with possible lower level API's. That's what Mantle is "fixing", its the whole basis for Mantle(!).