[Sweclockers] Asus MG279Q is to have the same panel as Acer XB270HU

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Gryz

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2010
1,551
204
106
This is just a PR statement. It's in fact the opposite.
Read my post on the first page of this thread.
I describe a (common) case where having the G-Sync module inside a monitor allows the technology to do more optimal things. Did you just skip it ? Can you point out where I am wrong ? If a simple amateur like myself can come up with better algorithms with a buffer inside the monitor, wouldn't professionals not be able to come up with even better ideas ?

If NV thought GSync was truly superior, they would support both standards just like modern GPUs will support OpenGL/Vulkan and DX12 at the same time. NV has a financial incentive to not support FreeSync and they will exercise their market share advantage for as long as possible to not support FreeSync
Sure, they want to make money. And more money than they should. But it could also be that they believe that FreeSync, without a module in the monitor, is an inferior solution. I believe it's an inferior solution. Benchmarks (like here) seem to indicate that FreeSync performs less fluent at lower framerates. I can understand a company that is reluctant to support an inferior solution.
 

stahlhart

Super Moderator Graphics Cards
Dec 21, 2010
4,273
77
91
Thread reopened. If I have to come back into this thread again, it won't be posts that get cleaned.
-- stahlhart
 

Black Octagon

Golden Member
Dec 10, 2012
1,410
2
81
Benchmarks (like here) seem to indicate that FreeSync performs less fluent at lower framerates. I can understand a company that is reluctant to support an inferior solution.


Very interesting video. I'm curious to see how FS continues to evolve and whether VRR can be achieved via drivers (or whatever) below the 40fps-ish threshold shown in that video.
 

Bobisuruncle54

Senior member
Oct 19, 2011
333
0
0
Some utterly pointless arguments in this thread.

  1. Freesync and G-sync are more or less equal on monitors with 100+hz refresh rates and systems that can push that many frames a second
  2. G-sync may be superior at lower refresh rates. This is relevant to two types of buyer - the one that can't afford a fast graphics card to run games at 1080p at a consistent 60fps or those who buy a 4K screen but have only one top of the line cards to run it
  3. Those wanting to run games consistently above 60hz can pluck for either Freesync of G-sync. At these frames rates and above both technologies are near enough equal. The premium for G-sync in this case is why it's considered a tax but it may be worth while an not considered a tax for scenarios where the average frame rate is below 60 as it may be the better solution for those that want to make the jump to 4K monitors without a multi-GPU setup
 
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Flapdrol1337

Golden Member
May 21, 2014
1,677
93
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This is just a PR statement. It's in fact the opposite. If NV thought GSync was truly superior, they would support both standards just like modern GPUs will support OpenGL/Vulkan and DX12 at the same time. NV has a financial incentive to not support FreeSync and they will exercise their market share advantage for as long as possible to not support FreeSync while collecting profits with every single GSync monitor sold.
I don't think they're making that much on the monitors, but they're locking in a lot of enthousiast users.

Gsync is still superior, with the more elegant fallback at low fps and lack of ghosting at 50-70 fps. But freesync is good enough to compete as long as it's significantly cheaper, and the ghosting will get fixed at some point.

I think as soon as there's an attractive freesync monitor nvidia will lose marketshare because of it and they'll start supporting it if their hardware is compatible. Maybe something like a $300 or less 144hz 1080p screen, if the gsync module really is as expensive as they say it is it will be impossible for gsync to compete. But before something like that happens a lot more users will be locked in.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
The premium for G-sync in this case is why it's considered a tax but it may be worth while an not considered a tax for scenarios where the average frame rate is below 60 as it may be the better solution for those that want to make the jump to 4K monitors without a multi-GPU setup

I am not I understanding your last point. FreeSync doesn't have issues if the fps goes below 60 fps. The issue seems to occur when the fps drops below the minimum rating of the monitor panel. For example, if the panel is rated at 48-75Hz, then if the fps drops below 48, you have problems. However, AMD has already stated and many sites have confirmed that FreeSync has an operational frequency of 9-240Hz. That means the limitations and compromises FreeSync has today in the 30-48Hz range are entirely related to the manufacturer of the panel/ monitor manufacturer, not FreeSync. To further support this point, some FreeSync monitors go as low as 30Hz while others are 40Hz and yet others are 48Hz. It seems the panel choice is a major factor in how good the monitor itself is, regardless whether it even supports FreeSync to begin with. Another proof of that is the lower quality 21:9 2560x1080 monitors that are shipping in the first round of FreeSync monitors. Taking FreeSync aside, those 21:9 monitors are all inferior to the LG 34" 3440x1440 panels.

Thus far, there are no high quality panel FreeSync monitors in the first batch but this has been used to criticize FreeSync technology itself. It's important to separate these 2 aspects as they are not inter-related.

I don't think they're making that much on the monitors, but they're locking in a lot of enthousiast users.

Gsync is still superior, with the more elegant fallback at low fps and lack of ghosting at 50-70 fps. But freesync is good enough to compete as long as it's significantly cheaper, and the ghosting will get fixed at some point.

But do we have a large enough sample size of the exact same panels used in both the GSync vs. FreeSync monitors to conclude that it is FreeSync technology and its driver issue causing the ghosting problem rather than the variations/technical characteristics of the panels in FreeSync monitors that could very well just be inferior to the ones used in the GSync monitors to begin with?

Also, as far as I am aware, there is still no high quality killer IPS/AVA 4K GSync (or FreeSync) monitor worth buying. Correct me if I am wrong in this regard. Since 4K is hyped up to be the future of PC monitor gaming resolution for the next 5+ years, the fact that we don't have 10-20 high quality 4K GSync/FreeSync panels is telling. In the current market state, both of these awesome technologies are held back by lack of affordable + high quality IPS/AVA 4K panels sized at 28-34". Even if we drop the affordable 4K 28-34" part, what are our choices?

My point is a lot of people seem to be focused so much on FreeSync vs. GSync but there is a group of gamers absolutely not interested in going from 1080P to 1440P, regardless of FreeSync vs. GSync. I fall into that group. If I am going to upgrade my monitor, it would have to be non-TN + at least 30" and 4K. It seems that monitor manufacturers are trying to do a stop-gap 1080p/1440p GSync/FreeSync monitors solution and then up-sell us one more time with 4K ones in 2-3 years. I am not interested in doing a 2-3 year monitor stop-gap upgrade that will cost me $500-800 and result in major compromises for movie watching due to a much smaller screen size of 24-27".
 
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destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
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I am not I understanding your last point. FreeSync doesn't have issues if the fps goes below 60 fps. The issue seems to occur when the fps drops below the minimum rating of the monitor panel. For example, if the panel is rated at 48-75Hz, then if the fps drops below 48, you have problems. However, AMD has already stated and many sites have confirmed that FreeSync has an operational frequency of 9-240Hz. That means the limitations and compromises FreeSync has today in the 30-48Hz range are entirely related to the manufacturer of the panel/ monitor manufacturer, not FreeSync. To further support this point, some FreeSync monitors go as low as 30Hz while others are 40Hz and yet others are 48Hz. It seems the panel choice is a major factor in how good the monitor itself is, regardless whether it even support FreeSync to begin with.

Thus far, there are no high quality panel FreeSync monitors in the first batch but this has been used to criticize FreeSync technology itself. It's important to separate these 2 aspects as they are not inter-related.

Part of the issue though, even if the panels can go as low as 30Hz, is what does it actually look like at those low refresh rates? Too low and you definitely get flicker.

That's the one-up that G Sync has over AdaptiveSync and FreeSync: once you get below the panel's low limit, it begins double or even triple buffering while bringing the refresh rate back into the normal zone. This avoids flicker due to a refresh rate that is too low.

I imagine there is a drawback to that solution as well. I haven't seen any actual in-depth analysis, however, I would love to know what kind of input lag is introduced when you begin double and even triple buffering low framerate in G Sync. In G Sync, when you are around 30fps, it is quite likely going to start double buffering to create a faster refresh rate, as opposed to using 30Hz and introducing flicker. Is there comparable input lag to V Sync at that point, which is essentially doing the same thing in those instances?

That could be one thing that AdaptiveSync is entirely attempting to mitigate: input lag. So, if a panel cannot tolerate 30Hz but can do 35Hz, then it will do 35Hz and the framerate will simply no longer match. Perhaps that's an intended trade-off so that input lag is not introduced?

I hope AdaptiveSync can incorporate some new tricks with revisions, because that would be the ultimate answer to the issue. Or if it is simply a matter of consumer education, because quite frankly, I think I'd rather the AdaptiveSync route anyway, even if G Sync might be smoother at 30fps. My whole goal in gaming is to not ever approach 30fps, period. I won't upgrade to 4K or beyond until I know I have or can afford the GPU muscle power. Granted, I'm not far from it now with 3x1080p, that's 75% of 4K, but if I upgrade to 4K it's unlikely to be a single monitor, and regardless, the next upgrade will be at minimum ultra widescreen at very high resolution. I'll hold off until: a) I can afford it; b) I can produce smooth visuals mostly around 60fps.

Both technologies would provide what I'd really want: smoothness when the game dips below 60fps into moments of 40-45 fps, perhaps even down to 35fps for whatever reason for brief moments, all while maintaining zero input lag and remaining smooth. I'm of the type that I don't care that G Sync brings the same visual smoothness to 30fps or lower, because I don't care to be around that level of framerate anyway.
 

Flapdrol1337

Golden Member
May 21, 2014
1,677
93
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But do we have a large enough sample size of the exact same panels used in both the GSync vs. FreeSync monitors to conclude that it is FreeSync technology and its driver issue causing the ghosting problem rather than the variations/technical characteristics of the panels in FreeSync monitors that could very well just be inferior to the ones used in the GSync monitors to begin with?
I've seen reviews/impressions of the benq, acer and the 2 lg screens. All of them seem to have this ghosting. The benq and acer are TN panels, they're fast enough for sure.

The only plausible explaination I found is the common systems to do response time compensation (aka overdrive) are supposedly not compatible with variable refresh, so they turn those off in freesync mode.

With gsync this isn't a problem because the module replaces everything in between the displayport in and the panel interface, it has memory to know the current state of the screen, good bit of processing power to do fancypants overdrive.

Of course this wouldn't be an inherent freesync problem, and it's up to the monitor manufacturers to fix. It'll also be interesting to see if the upcoming "gsync for mobile" has the ghosting, as that will work without the gsync module I guess it should.
 

Black Octagon

Golden Member
Dec 10, 2012
1,410
2
81
I've seen reviews/impressions of the benq, acer and the 2 lg screens. All of them seem to have this ghosting. The benq and acer are TN panels, they're fast enough for sure.

The only plausible explaination I found is the common systems to do response time compensation (aka overdrive) are supposedly not compatible with variable refresh, so they turn those off in freesync mode.

With gsync this isn't a problem because the module replaces everything in between the displayport in and the panel interface, it has memory to know the current state of the screen, good bit of processing power to do fancypants overdrive.

Of course this wouldn't be an inherent freesync problem, and it's up to the monitor manufacturers to fix. It'll also be interesting to see if the upcoming "gsync for mobile" has the ghosting, as that will work without the gsync module I guess it should.


+1

It hasn't been "proven" yet, but based on what I've seen it appears the GS module likely plays a role in regulating overdrive, and possibly in ULMB too (plus ensuring that VRR is maintained below about 36Hz)

The real question is: is this really work a 200-buck premium??? I'm undecided for now.
 

Compddd

Golden Member
Jul 5, 2000
1,864
0
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I dislike SLI so I only run 1 card and I want 4k down the line, so looks like I'll be going with a 4k G-Sync monitor.
 

dacostafilipe

Senior member
Oct 10, 2013
772
244
116
The real question is: is this really work a 200-buck premium??? I'm undecided for now.

If you are sensitive to ghosting or your games dip bellow min frequency a lot, then I would say yes, it's certainly worth it for those who have the money.

Still thinking that the module is not needed, but the validation step does a great job.
 
Feb 19, 2009
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30 min is the sweetspot, all the FS monitors so far fail to be relevant due to having 40/48 min hz.

So whoever makes the first decent FS monitor with 30-75/144 (for 1440p) or 30-60 (for 4K) is going to be a hit.
 

Flapdrol1337

Golden Member
May 21, 2014
1,677
93
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The 48-75 hz LG's might work well with an ingame ~63 fps limiter. Would be like vsync without the extra input lag.
 
Feb 19, 2009
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48 fps min is quite hard to sustain in a lot of newer games with max settings.

30 is good because sub 30 fps, the experience is going to be trash anyway.
 

Enigmoid

Platinum Member
Sep 27, 2012
2,907
31
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48 fps min is quite hard to sustain in a lot of newer games with max settings.

30 is good because sub 30 fps, the experience is going to be trash anyway.

+1

I think we will need to see 30 fps mins on Free sync for it to really be viable.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
3,095
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What a shame. Nobody wants freesync. Asus monitor would have been the perfect competitor to that Acer one, but not with freesync. Freesync is a major turn off for me. It doesn't work right at lower FPS? What's the point then?
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
18,408
4,968
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What a shame. Nobody wants freesync. Asus monitor would have been the perfect competitor to that Acer one, but not with freesync. Freesync is a major turn off for me. It doesn't work right at lower FPS? What's the point then?

Depends on each panel, and it might be something that can be fixed in drivers. As long as you have more fps than lowest refresh rate you are good to go. So as long as you have 40+ fps you on this panel, you are good to go. The lg widescreen had a minimum refresh of 48hz which is a bit high.
 
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moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
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Depends on each panel, and it might be something that can be fixed in drivers. As long as you have more fps than lowest refresh rate you are good to go. So as long as you have 40+ fps you on this panel, you are good to go. The lg widescreen had a minimum refresh of 48hz which is a bit high.

What happens if it goes below 40? Does the monitor turn off or something? Does it lock up and crash your rig? Or does freesync just stop syncing up? If it just acts like a regular monitor below 40, then that's not the end of the world.
 

HurleyBird

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2003
2,727
1,342
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Assuming your lowest supported frame-rate is less than 2x the maximum supported frame rate you can just send the same frame multiple times at a multiple of the frequency when you're below the minimum. I don't think Freesync supports this yet, but there's no reason that it shouldn't be able to in the future with a driver update.
 
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