I was thinking, if AIOs on the GPUs get popular, the case makers will make some cool solutions I bet.
Separate AIO chambers on the side panels or something out of the ordinary.
I would not use GPU rads as intakes, it would defeat the purpose of water cooling, to get good temps & noise while dumping heat out your case. As soon as you dump heat in your case, its cheaper just to go with an open air design. ;P
Stock 980 barely is 10% or so faster (at suitable resolutions for flagship cards) than 780ti, but has a lower TDP and that is efficient as per you. On the other hand, with merely 10W more than 290x for more than 40% performance gain compared to 290x is mainstream, and not efficient as per you. You also describe 980 as flagship. It has been demonstrated over and over, that a 290x or a 380x doesn't need water-cooling as a standard fitment, but instead is being provided with one as extra value for reference cards, setting new standards while at it.I'm saying two things: cards that need an AIO to function are bad in my eyes. I'm looking at you, 295x2. If the 380/390 ran so hot that it needed a AIO to function, I would view it as a failure (I was quite clear on this in my first post that started this chain.) I view the efficiency improvements Maxwell came with as a very good thing; I would like to see AMD trying to make the similar improvements. If you want a non-GPU example, go look at Ivy Bridge compared to Haswell. Haswell (using numbers from AT) consumed 25% less power at idle, while under load it drew 11% more than IB, but at the same time the performance was 13% higher on Haswell.
Cards that ship with an AIO as default (regardless of reason) are in my eyes, a worse value than a proper heatsink solution. Moreover, I think if AMD's default solution was a AIO with a heatsink you need to mount on the back of the case, they will see serious issues. In past, cards like the 5970 were too long to fit some cases. With an AIO, some cases won't have a area to mount to in reach, or some users might already have a H100 or similar taking up that space. They limit themselves by adding the "will it fit" questions when buying their card. It's one thing for a 5970 or a 295x2 to have this problem, given it is such an expensive card. It's another thing if a more mainstream card, such as a 380, has that problem.
I've looked at a 980 because it is the flagship out there right now that isn't a downgrade for me. A 970 would be a downgrade in some instances. A 290x is similarly not a real upgrade either.
Your worries are easily solved by AMD ensuring that there's not much delay in custom cooled cards, and conveying as much to review sites when they send them samples. It doesn't necessarily have to be an air-cooled solution on a reference design. Most of the review sites, still benchmarked 9xx cards against AMD reference designs. So it most decidedly helps AMD to have what is clearly the best way to go with reference design. Prevents review sites exploiting this and making AMD look bad...It could but the thing is reviewers usually get reference samples at launch so the PR damage would be done. That's why I keep insisting that AMD should have a really really nice air cooler on launch that reviewers have access to so they can knock the launch out of the ballpark. Some AMD fans may think those of us that like NV hardware want to see it fail but it couldn't be further from the truth. I'm not oblivious to what's happened on the CPU side of things and certainly don't want that happening to GPUs, it's already stagnant enough.
I've looked at a 980 because it is the flagship out there right now that isn't a downgrade for me. A 970 would be a downgrade in some instances. A 290x is similarly not a real upgrade either.
Because many enthusiasts use multicard solutions like me and two aio isn't practical, it's stupid. If AMD fails to offer a good reference air cooler and makes people wait on third party solutions like they did with 290/x they will see a similar failure in sales and market perception especially with an efficient air cooled gm200.
Yes yes, you are right, you sound like broken record. Looks so horrible design doesn't it. No way you would be able to live with this system... right? :whiste:
quote from russian
You mean the unbiased no BS ones where they compare an OC'd Nvidia part to reference AMD cards?We also had an AMD rep claim that Bulldozer would have higher IPC right up to launch IIRC. I'm not going to speculate. I'll wait for reviews.
Yes yes, you are right, you sound like broken record. Looks so horrible design doesn't it. No way you would be able to live with this system... right? :whiste:
quote from russian
Honestly, i'd beg your pardon, but will insist that it is nothing but closed minded to oppose an obvious improvement in reference standards. Why? Simply because it is the reference design. There will be custom cooled cards from partners, and that's been overlooked and constantly by the "open minded" lot you refer to. Most people don't buy flagship cards with reference coolers, and it doesn't matter whether it is a product from Nvidia or AMD. The customer base for reference cooled cards are largely/ traditionally system builders, who may actually like this. Of course, some who want the latest and the bestest now, always get some reference cooled cards. However, my "open minded" friend, if they were willing to put up with hot and noisy blowers, they will more than happily put up with finding space for a 120mm fan.Is that running exhaust or intake at the front radiators?
It isn't the most efficient to run front exhaust, especially if you run exhaust everywhere else. There will be dead zones in the air flow.
Now, if everything is on a CLC, I guess it doesn't matter as much.
What people are complaining about, the more open-minded, non CLC-loving folk, is the idea that getting two 120mm CLC kits into quite a few setups is far less than ideal, if not detrimental.
In my case, I can't fit most 120mm radiators up top or on the back with my NH-D14. There is simply no room except for slim up top, and I'm not sure if I can fit two up there, due to the way tubes would have to run. They would have to be thin and 120mm, 140mm radiators won't fit in the 400R, not properly.
To fit radiators, in my case, I'd have to replace the front intakes, or place the radiators on the side intakes and turn them into exhaust (seeing as my CPU is cooled by internal air). And for side intake/exhaust, only one will fit unless I changed the CPU cooler to a CLC kit as well.
If I changed my CPU cooler, I could get away with doing things differently, but... that's not a proper solution to fitting a GPU into your build, as far as I'm concerned. To completely change your build, one that works just fine in every other situation, is rather ridiculous.
I wouldn't mind going CLC, and might even look into it for the 290X I have in the mail, and most likely a second one not long after.
The worst part about front intake mods is the requirement to remove HDD cages. I have five of mine filled right now, so I can't remove the cage. So, really, unless I can find the right thin 120mm radiator, my only options are a single CLC cooler on a side exhaust, or being forced to spend even more money to get a CPU CLC, and that still requires some further airflow issues. For an OC'd 2600K, it would likely need a 240mm radiator to be more effective than my NH-D14, which, well, it has to be more effective or I'm not getting rid of it - it already gets way too hot, imho, at least when stressed. Now that means a rear exhaust and a side... intake over a radiator? Or exhaust on one, intake on another? Doesn't seem effective going the latter, so perhaps one on intake? That's still some warm air then going to the other radiators. Perhaps that would be fine.
Even with all of that taken care of, all is not perfect. CLCs can, although very rarely, leak. They can also fail abruptly. They can also have excessive pump noise. All warranty-repairable, but completely knocking out the system for repair, or in the case of a leak, potentially killing it.
Honestly, if I had the space, I'd probably accept that risk, simply for the benefits offered. That said, to make it work now, I'd have to make serious changes to my build, which, frankly, I don't care to do, or spend that kind of money, until I am ready to spend it on a total system rebuild. I'm thinking of a build during the Skylake era, and until then, these GPUs are more than I'd rather spend but 560 Ti's are simply not cutting it for multi-monitor. They never did when new, but I accepted it. I mainly got it for racing sims but do enjoy other games when possible.
They used to have the best air coolers... go knows whatever happened to them. Market can surely use more innovation. I heard that their customer service has gone down the drain though, which is not good.If there's a demand for a good blower, AIBs will cover it. Anyone remember His iTurbo blower coolers? About as effective as open air designs, but heat = out the case. It was ugly as heck though.
I have an answer, but the source is most likely under NDA... and the answer is, [drumroll], DX12. The source, Fottemberg, a contributor to bits and chips mentioned something along the lines of current Maxwell and a storm of fecal matter which may come to in April. Why i think that's the time Windows 10 is to hit the shelves.
Quite. The same thing happened to dx11, when the competition had nothing.If that's the case then DX12 won't be important any more.
I'm saying two things: cards that need an AIO to function are bad in my eyes. I'm looking at you, 295x2. If the 380/390 ran so hot that it needed a AIO to function, I would view it as a failure (I was quite clear on this in my first post that started this chain.) I view the efficiency improvements Maxwell came with as a very good thing; I would like to see AMD trying to make the similar improvements. If you want a non-GPU example, go look at Ivy Bridge compared to Haswell. Haswell (using numbers from AT) consumed 25% less power at idle, while under load it drew 11% more than IB, but at the same time the performance was 13% higher on Haswell.
Cards that ship with an AIO as default (regardless of reason) are in my eyes, a worse value than a proper heatsink solution. Moreover, I think if AMD's default solution was a AIO with a heatsink you need to mount on the back of the case, they will see serious issues. In past, cards like the 5970 were too long to fit some cases. With an AIO, some cases won't have a area to mount to in reach, or some users might already have a H100 or similar taking up that space. They limit themselves by adding the "will it fit" questions when buying their card. It's one thing for a 5970 or a 295x2 to have this problem, given it is such an expensive card. It's another thing if a more mainstream card, such as a 380, has that problem.
I've looked at a 980 because it is the flagship out there right now that isn't a downgrade for me. A 970 would be a downgrade in some instances. A 290x is similarly not a real upgrade either.
Serious question
Sorry if answered I haven't read entire thread.
How would you have room to x-fire two GPUs with AIO coolers and rads?
With...
CPU w/AIO cooler and rad.
add
1st GPU with AIO cooler and rad.
and
2nd GPU with AIO cooler and rad.
Where are you mounting all the rads?
Only solution I see is to void warranty and make custom loop.
Even if you go with a good cpu air cooler like the Noctua NH-D14, Im not even sure you'd have enough room for a GPU rad between the Noctua HSF and your cases rear exhaust for the GPU AIO rad. (and I have a CM HAFx which is no small case and it doesnt look like there would be room)..let alone two GPUs with AIO cooling.
The AIO reference is literally the best thing AMD could do. The detractors in this thread are taking a very myopic view of the situation.
AMD is taking care not to give their competitor's marketing an easy strawman. Before you continue on your tirades, please take a little time off to take note of all the sites who bench non-reference designs vs AMD's reference. When AMD's reference is literally the best cooled card on the market, what was previously a sore point for AMD's perception... isn't.
If AMD follows through on their AIO cooled single GPU card then nothing else will be able to touch it in noise or temps. Ever. So what happens to the "hot and loud" meme then?
The problem with flagship cards and their reference models was always cooling. Now that the sticking point has been answered, it would be great for all concerned, except those who wouldn't buy reference.I was looking for a TPU review of the reference 970 the other day, for some apples to apples comparisons, and couldn't find one. Very few people buy reference designs. I believe the AIO design from AMD will change that and more people will opt forthe reference model.
I tend to prefer the true reference board designs over most custom boards. You don't have to worry what they've spec'd for components and whether they are inferior to the reference components or if they have been as thoroughly tested for stability.