Tactical vs. run & gun

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EvixKeth

Member
Nov 16, 2007
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I can do either, though lately I've been getting more and more into tactical games. I love them to death. However, there are times in a game (I'm lookin' at you, Ghost Recon) where I just get so frustrated at a tactical game that I need a run-and-gun game just to cure my frustration.

These days, I just go into SiN Episodes - Emergence and play Arena mode for a while, and I'm good to go. Headshots in which the target head explodes are very satisfying.
 

KeithTalent

Elite Member | Administrator | No Lifer
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Nov 30, 2005
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Originally posted by: jjzelinski
Originally posted by: pontifex
Originally posted by: RandomFool
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Well what are some examples of a true 'run & gun' game? I think most of the games I play are somewhat tactical, but then it is possible I have not really tried a true tactical game to know the difference.

KT

Serious Sam, is the first and just about only pure "run and gun" game I can think of unless you count Serious Same II that is..

you started FPS gaming late?

Yeah really. But as for more modern titles, Painkiller is a classic as well. Kind of like serious sam but minus the silly bomb headed mean and plus giant skeleton demon bikers with shotguns and fireballs. I may be mixing up several monsters but that's because there's a shitload in PK.

Ugh, I hated Painkiller with a passion. I liked Serious Sam2 though, so I guess I'm confused.

KT
 

jonmcc33

Banned
Feb 24, 2002
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Originally posted by: pontifex
no...i'm talking about games like BF2, CoD4, etc. i think you're talking about simulations

There's nothing tactical with COD4 or BF2. I think you're thinking about games with modern weapons...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_shooter

First two paragraphs pretty much sum it up and even points out R6 and OFP as examples, as I did.

In fact, here's an example of "run and gun" games...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run_and_gun

Are these really what you are talking about?

 

KeithTalent

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Nov 30, 2005
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Originally posted by: jonmcc33
Originally posted by: pontifex
no...i'm talking about games like BF2, CoD4, etc. i think you're talking about simulations

There's nothing tactical with COD4 or BF2.

I'm not sure how you can say there is nothing tactical about those games. I know you don't have to sit and plot strategy for hours before making a move, but that does not mean they are devoid of tactics.

Even TF2 (I know you hate it more than anything in the entire known universe, but bear with me) requires tactics in order for you to beat the other team, unless they are completely stupid. I think you have some sort of special definition of tactical or something.

KT

 

jonmcc33

Banned
Feb 24, 2002
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Originally posted by: KeithTalent
I'm not sure how you can say there is nothing tactical about those games. I know you don't have to sit and plot strategy for hours before making a move, but that does not mean they are devoid of tactics.

Even TF2 (I know you hate it more than anything in the entire known universe, but bear with me) requires tactics in order for you to beat the other team, unless they are completely stupid. I think you have some sort of special definition of tactical or something.

KT

Here's my definition...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_shooter

BF2 and COD4 do not meet those requirements. There's nothing realistic in either of the two. I prefer the hardcore mode of COD4 just to have some sort of realism to it. Unfortunately the perks and lack of realistic gun physics take away from that still. I snipe people from across the map with a silenced Scorpion SMG on COD4.

Edit- Those games don't really require any sort of strategy to win either. One player can make a huge difference. That has nothing to do with strategy.
 

imported_Imp

Diamond Member
Dec 20, 2005
9,148
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Originally posted by: KeithTalent

I'm not sure how you can say there is nothing tactical about those games. I know you don't have to sit and plot strategy for hours before making a move, but that does not mean they are devoid of tactics.

Even TF2 (I know you hate it more than anything in the entire known universe, but bear with me) requires tactics in order for you to beat the other team, unless they are completely stupid. I think you have some sort of special definition of tactical or something.

KT

By that definition, eating breakfast is a tactical activity since it requires thinking and fore thought. I would never have even considered TF2 to be tactical. The wikipedia links are pretty "accurate". To even be remotely tactical, weapons and damage modelling have to be "reasonable" (i.e. one hit kills without magical critical hits, damaged limbs).
 

Dumac

Diamond Member
Dec 31, 2005
9,391
1
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Originally posted by: jonmcc33
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
I'm not sure how you can say there is nothing tactical about those games. I know you don't have to sit and plot strategy for hours before making a move, but that does not mean they are devoid of tactics.

Even TF2 (I know you hate it more than anything in the entire known universe, but bear with me) requires tactics in order for you to beat the other team, unless they are completely stupid. I think you have some sort of special definition of tactical or something.

KT

Here's my definition...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_shooter

BF2 and COD4 do not meet those requirements. There's nothing realistic in either of the two. I prefer the hardcore mode of COD4 just to have some sort of realism to it. Unfortunately the perks and lack of realistic gun physics take away from that still. I snipe people from across the map with a silenced Scorpion SMG on COD4.

Edit- Those games don't really require any sort of strategy to win either. One player can make a huge difference. That has nothing to do with strategy.

Did you even read the article?

In multiplayer games, the term can have a different meaning. A multiplayer tactical shooter focuses on team cooperation to achieve objectives, rather than simply eliminating the enemy (as in traditional deathmatch games). The tactical emphasis is thus on joint goals and assisting team members, rather than on overcoming realistic individual limitations, for example, in games such as Counter-Strike or Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory.

If CS is on your the damn article as a 'Tactical Shooter', I don't see why these other games don't make the cut.
 

Vidda

Senior member
Sep 29, 2004
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R&G is my preferred for MP (Quake, UT, TF), but for single player, AI is never interesting enough for a R&G style, so I prefer tactical.
 

spittledip

Diamond Member
Apr 23, 2005
4,480
1
81
Originally posted by: BlueWeasel
To each their own, but I'm more of a R&G player.

I don't care for hardcore tactical FPS like the Rainbow 6 series. However, I do enjoy games that have a tactical feel to them, like the original Call of Duty and its expansion pack. The game type largely depends on the server you play on, and you can find either type.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for suggesting that COD has tactical gameplay, but compared to games like Quake or UT2004, it does.

[Edit] RandomFool summed it up nicely.

No , I totally agree with you. COD1 MP has a great tactical, methodical feel to it. You can choose to run and gun with the tommy and other subs, but you also have the rifles and MGs to slow it down. I hate run and gun myself.
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
18,406
4,967
136
I like the tactical aspects, but when I feel my teammates are complete at loss as to a little teamwork, I just say f*ck it and go on a shooting spree taking my frustrations out on my enemies.
 

pontifex

Lifer
Dec 5, 2000
43,806
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91
Originally posted by: jonmcc33

Here's my definition...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_shooter

BF2 and COD4 do not meet those requirements. There's nothing realistic in either of the two. I prefer the hardcore mode of COD4 just to have some sort of realism to it. Unfortunately the perks and lack of realistic gun physics take away from that still. I snipe people from across the map with a silenced Scorpion SMG on COD4.

Edit- Those games don't really require any sort of strategy to win either. One player can make a huge difference. That has nothing to do with strategy.

wtf are you talking about? direct quote from your link:

generally simulate realistic, squad-based or man-to-man skirmishes. This may come in the form of police fighting terrorists or other criminals, military combat in the recent past or hypothetical near future, and so on. The emphasis is on realistic modeling of weapon effects, terrain, and character capabilities, which lead to the possibility of other tactics, such as stealth, being used in play than the more conventional FPS "shoot everything that moves" game style.


Sounds exactly (or at least pretty damn close) like CoD4 and BF2 to me.
 

pontifex

Lifer
Dec 5, 2000
43,806
46
91
Originally posted by: Imp
Originally posted by: KeithTalent

I'm not sure how you can say there is nothing tactical about those games. I know you don't have to sit and plot strategy for hours before making a move, but that does not mean they are devoid of tactics.

Even TF2 (I know you hate it more than anything in the entire known universe, but bear with me) requires tactics in order for you to beat the other team, unless they are completely stupid. I think you have some sort of special definition of tactical or something.

KT

By that definition, eating breakfast is a tactical activity since it requires thinking and fore thought. I would never have even considered TF2 to be tactical. The wikipedia links are pretty "accurate". To even be remotely tactical, weapons and damage modelling have to be "reasonable" (i.e. one hit kills without magical critical hits, damaged limbs).

so the UT games where they enable the one hit kill mutator makes it tactical?

 

JBT

Lifer
Nov 28, 2001
12,095
1
81
I like a bit of both. I like Crysis for the fact each little base I stumble upon I can treat them differently as I like. I can sit back cloak and snipe or I can run in there and rocket and nade the hell out of them.
 

KeithTalent

Elite Member | Administrator | No Lifer
Administrator
Nov 30, 2005
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Originally posted by: Imp
Originally posted by: KeithTalent

I'm not sure how you can say there is nothing tactical about those games. I know you don't have to sit and plot strategy for hours before making a move, but that does not mean they are devoid of tactics.

Even TF2 (I know you hate it more than anything in the entire known universe, but bear with me) requires tactics in order for you to beat the other team, unless they are completely stupid. I think you have some sort of special definition of tactical or something.

KT

By that definition, eating breakfast is a tactical activity since it requires thinking and fore thought. I would never have even considered TF2 to be tactical. The wikipedia links are pretty "accurate". To even be remotely tactical, weapons and damage modelling have to be "reasonable" (i.e. one hit kills without magical critical hits, damaged limbs).

I guess you are talking more about 'realistic' than tactical. Heck, I need tactics to beat BrickBreaker, but it's not very realistic.

I think TF2 can be very tactical, depending on who you are playing with, but it is very far from realistic.

KT
 

imported_Imp

Diamond Member
Dec 20, 2005
9,148
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Originally posted by: KeithTalent

I guess you are talking more about 'realistic' than tactical. Heck, I need tactics to beat BrickBreaker, but it's not very realistic.

I think TF2 can be very tactical, depending on who you are playing with, but it is very far from realistic.

KT

The way I've seen it, it has to be both "realistic" and "tactical" to be classified as "tactical". TF2, Tribes, Quake Wars, etc. would be more multiplayer team-based tactical (as in the wikipedia description). So I'll give you that, it is tactical, but not in the same realm as Rainbow 6 (not Vegas), Swat, etc. Those are the benchmarks I use to consider whether something is or is not. We can probably go on and on about what is a "tactical" game, but clearly it is somewhat subjective so whatever. From now on, I'll just call them "games like Rainbow 6, Swat, etc.).


Originally posted by: pontifex

so the UT games where they enable the one hit kill mutator makes it tactical?

Should have said one hit kills at appropriate anatomical locations.

 

jonmcc33

Banned
Feb 24, 2002
1,504
0
0
Originally posted by: pontifex
wtf are you talking about? direct quote from your link:

generally simulate realistic, squad-based or man-to-man skirmishes. This may come in the form of police fighting terrorists or other criminals, military combat in the recent past or hypothetical near future, and so on. The emphasis is on realistic modeling of weapon effects, terrain, and character capabilities, which lead to the possibility of other tactics, such as stealth, being used in play than the more conventional FPS "shoot everything that moves" game style.


Sounds exactly (or at least pretty damn close) like CoD4 and BF2 to me.

Did you even read the paragraph? COD4 and BF2 are very much "shoot everything that moves". I would consider both a conventional FPS game and not tactical FPS.

There's nothing realistic about COD4 at all. You have to unload an entire magazine into someone to kill them. That's realistic compared to America's Army, Delta Force, Rainbow Six, OFP or Vietcong?

I doubt you have played half of those games to even understand the difference between conventional and tactical. Have you even played BF2 or COD4?
 

pontifex

Lifer
Dec 5, 2000
43,806
46
91
Originally posted by: jonmcc33
Originally posted by: pontifex
wtf are you talking about? direct quote from your link:

generally simulate realistic, squad-based or man-to-man skirmishes. This may come in the form of police fighting terrorists or other criminals, military combat in the recent past or hypothetical near future, and so on. The emphasis is on realistic modeling of weapon effects, terrain, and character capabilities, which lead to the possibility of other tactics, such as stealth, being used in play than the more conventional FPS "shoot everything that moves" game style.


Sounds exactly (or at least pretty damn close) like CoD4 and BF2 to me.

Did you even read the paragraph? COD4 and BF2 are very much "shoot everything that moves". I would consider both a conventional FPS game and not tactical FPS.

There's nothing realistic about COD4 at all. You have to unload an entire magazine into someone to kill them. That's realistic compared to America's Army, Delta Force, Rainbow Six, OFP or Vietcong?

I doubt you have played half of those games to even understand the difference between conventional and tactical. Have you even played BF2 or COD4?

yes, i own both games.
see, you're talking realistic, not tactical. 2 totally different things
 

jonmcc33

Banned
Feb 24, 2002
1,504
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Um, the very beginning of the definition is "realistic". Did you neglect to read that part? That's a tactical shooter, period. Get it through your head.

What's your BF2 username if you own the game?
 

pontifex

Lifer
Dec 5, 2000
43,806
46
91
Originally posted by: jonmcc33
Um, the very beginning of the definition is "realistic". Did you neglect to read that part? That's a tactical shooter, period. Get it through your head.

What's your BF2 username if you own the game?

if i'm neglecting to read parts you're neglecting to read the whole damn thing.

I haven't played BF2 in a long time because it sucks ass. my username was Wynterheart.
a tactical shooter can be realistic but it doesn't HAVE to be. for all i know, that wikipedia article was written by you.

hell, if you read further on that wiki article, it says this:
In multiplayer games, the term can have a different meaning. A multiplayer tactical shooter focuses on team cooperation to achieve objectives, rather than simply eliminating the enemy (as in traditional deathmatch games). The tactical emphasis is thus on joint goals and assisting team members, rather than on overcoming realistic individual limitations, for example, in games such as Counter-Strike or Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory.

Sounds like BF2's capture mode, CoD4's Headquarters, S&D, Domination, & Sabotage modes. they even call CSS tactical but according to you, it isn't because it isn't realistic.

It also says:
Tactical shooters are first- or third-person shooters, but are distinguished by being emphasising realism and team tactics over action and one-player-one-unit.

Realistic military simulators where individual soldiers or units are not directly controlled by the player are often real-time tactics games.


The games have realistic weapons and vehicles. in CoD4, about 3 shots will kill a player.
BF2 is tactical because its made to be played in a tactical manner. you have squads, you're supposed to work with teammates to complete goals. Whether people play it as such is besides the point.

Tactical
 

kreactor

Senior member
Jan 3, 2005
709
0
76
i like the hitman series as i can suddenly go into flipmode and take out the civilians

after 2 hours of crysis, i still haven't found a use/ rationale of grabbing a dude by the throat
and throwing him
 

jonmcc33

Banned
Feb 24, 2002
1,504
0
0
Originally posted by: pontifex
if i'm neglecting to read parts you're neglecting to read the whole damn thing.

I haven't played BF2 in a long time because it sucks ass. my username was Wynterheart.
a tactical shooter can be realistic but it doesn't HAVE to be. for all i know, that wikipedia article was written by you.

hell, if you read further on that wiki article, it says this:
In multiplayer games, the term can have a different meaning. A multiplayer tactical shooter focuses on team cooperation to achieve objectives, rather than simply eliminating the enemy (as in traditional deathmatch games). The tactical emphasis is thus on joint goals and assisting team members, rather than on overcoming realistic individual limitations, for example, in games such as Counter-Strike or Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory.

Sounds like BF2's capture mode, CoD4's Headquarters, S&D, Domination, & Sabotage modes. they even call CSS tactical but according to you, it isn't because it isn't realistic.

It also says:
Tactical shooters are first- or third-person shooters, but are distinguished by being emphasising realism and team tactics over action and one-player-one-unit.

Realistic military simulators where individual soldiers or units are not directly controlled by the player are often real-time tactics games.


The games have realistic weapons and vehicles. in CoD4, about 3 shots will kill a player.
BF2 is tactical because its made to be played in a tactical manner. you have squads, you're supposed to work with teammates to complete goals. Whether people play it as such is besides the point.

Tactical

You said realism like 30 times already and haven't gotten the damn clue. All games require some sort of tactics but a tactical shooter is quite different than conventional FPS games. That is what separates the two. This was clearly stated above by another person.

I give up on this with you really. You are just too daft to talk to.

You say BF2 sucks ass. You haven't even really played the game and from your stats you aren't even any good at it!

Your thread on COD4 about what custom classes people are making shows that you aren't any good at that game either.

Were you any good at SOF2 at all by chance? Do you think that's a tactical game?
 

Ruptga

Lifer
Aug 3, 2006
10,247
207
106
I really like a mix, I hate games that are all twitch, and arbitrary crap just irritates me (ie dudes just continually pour out of a tunnel until you close it off; you're bearing down on someone in a truck, they rocket the truck from three feet away, truck instantly stops dead in its tracks with no damage to the guy that should be smashed underneath tumbling flaming wreckage, etc), but at the same time I get ADD and just want to have fun. For example, in Halo 2, on Burial Mounds, with snipers, I'd try to snipe for maybe five minutes, then I'd inevitably get bored and start splattering people in the ghost while they're trying to sneak around and snipe each other. However, I have found I like tactical situations a lot more when I play with people over LAN so they can't screencheat. It really goes back and forth with me, a good game will offer both possibilities.
 
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