Take this, you Athiests!!

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TripleJ

Platinum Member
Apr 29, 2001
2,667
0
0
Some good tinkin in here! Keep it up lads!

I have done my dash on religion and have little more to say.

I'll just repeat what Blundar wrote, which is quite good:

f!ck dogmatic reasoning period, be it christianity or atheism.
Openmindedness is the only way to go baby...
It's not as much what you believe as how you believe it, if you ask me.


Make up your own mind, that's what I say. If I fall into the atheist category, well so be it, but I aint falling into no category just because it's there. Everyone has there own take on what's going on.
 

Def

Senior member
Jan 7, 2001
765
0
0
I'm a pragmatic person, so I'll approach this issue with that stance.

Speaking from scientific evidence, the universe is many billions of years old, I believe the current estimates are up to 11-12 billion years old. Our cozy little hunk of rock we call Earth is about 5 billion years old. Life is about 3.5-4 billion years old. Modern humans have been around for about 125,000-100,000 years. Christianity has been around for a little over 2000 years.

Now, considering you go by the Christian mantra of animals being dumb beasts(wrong on most accounts, but that's another discussion), humans are the only ones that could have a religious system in place. So the OLDEST the idea of religion could be is about 125,000 years old. But it's probably far younger than that, but that's beside the point.

Now Christianity is a pretty weird one as far as all the previous religions are concerned, but it has just been around for a fraction of the time the idea of religion has been present. The time span of the idea of religion is just a blink of the eye compared to the total time life has been present on this planet, and a TINY TINY amount of time that the universe has been around.

According to the Christian faith, all people who don't believe in Jesus Christ and God will go to hell, since he is a jealous God. Now, you are going to tell me with a straight face that all the people that never even had a CHANCE to worship this crazy guy in the sky were automatically condemned? Sure! That sounds plausible...

What of the BIG PICTURE? To describe this religion as young doesn't even begin to tell the tale. How can it be *the right way* if it's been around for 1.6% of the time that other religions have probably been around? It's obvious Christianity is just an idea created by man for other weak people filled with fear and ignorance. Look at ALL religions from an objective standpoint and you will see how crazy they sound.

Christianity, IMO, preys on the ignorance and fears of the general population. I'd hate to live my life for some mystical guy that is always watching me, omnipotent, but never chooses to show himself to the world.

And yes, I've created these opinions all by myself. I even use some good examples of real scientific evidence. I'd gladly change my mind if someone could produce some REAL HARD EVIDENCE that Christianity is true. Otherwise it just sounds like a bunch of fairy tales and fictional stories to teach morals to the population.
 

athlongeek618

Member
Feb 25, 2001
112
0
0
You guys should listen to Def, he seems to have the right idea.

And about me following what a genius has concluded...that's only to solidify my thoughts, to know that I'm in company with the great thinkers throughout time, obviously means I'm on to something.

I believe what is real, concrete. I don't devote my whole life to something I don't even know is there, and highly doubt is there in the first place. It's personal preference, but answer me this one...

If you were brought up in say...India...would you be a Christian? So don't tell me you believe it because of any other reason than culture has thrown it at you.

I remember when my dad went to catholic school, when he was in 1st grade (about 35 years ago), he was forced to write right handed, eventhough he was left handed. Now there's just one example, but that sure as hell supports my theory of religion taking away individuality.

I've always been a "weird kid" myself, and back in Sunday School when I used to go, I'd draw pictures of religious scences but with weird twists to them, and I'd always get punished because "That's not how it really is". That really pissed me off for one.

Why doesn't one of you Christians go drink some poison or something, and tell me where your god is then.
 

dctalksolo

Junior Member
Jun 11, 2001
6
0
0
Yes well, I myself am a pentecostal and I never had anything forced onto me. Being a 15 year old I can be an ignorant little ah heck here in my bubble and because of my current hormone inbalance I am not giong to get into the whole evidence thing. I just want to say that whenever I read anything to do with people critizing religion there's always one thing in common:

They stereotype to blazes and are either completely biased or really dont' understand.

If you don't understand what religion is about and you think it's all comformist then you obviously don't know much about the subject, you do and you're just making up carpy fish, or I feel sorry for you and you've probably been around a bad catholic church (not that all our bad these a days).

So yeah there you go and you can scoff and you can laugh but when you're down and out of the race and you've reaached the end of the rope, just remember you were ashamed of the lord.


socket 7 slot a
 

Engine

Senior member
Oct 11, 1999
519
0
0
troglodytis:

Heh. Touche . However, what people like athlongeek mean when they call Theists 'sheep' is completely different than what the bible talks about. It's hard not to take offense when someone accuses you of not using your brain.

To some other people in this thread, how does a different set of beliefs from your own make a person somehow 'less' than you? Because, as reitz pointed out there are hypocrites on both sides of the coin, just as there are people to admire on both sides. Many of you dismiss Theists (Christians, in particular) as less intelligent or mentally weaker than you, when there are LOTS of Theists out there who are a whole lot smarter than you, and whose beliefs have been thought through more than yours.
 

Jothaxe

Golden Member
Apr 5, 2001
1,274
0
0
reitz,

Normally I would find myself rooting for the "other side." But the clarity, thought, and tact in your posts here makes this pretty much impossible.

In my opinion, your replies in this thread are exemplary of how a good conversation on this subject can, and should be conducted. Kudos!

-jothaxe
 

NeoHC421

Senior member
Jan 7, 2001
248
0
0


<< NeoHC:

I am an agnostic who doesn't believe in God. I do admit that a god could exist, though. I just don't think that their is enough evidence to either prove the existance of God or present me with a viable God to believe in. That is just my take. Now my question to you it: Do you take into account that you could be wrong? Don't you think that their is a possibility that their isn't a God? And note, I am not trying to ask this in a rude way, so don't take it that way. I seriously want to know. Since I have always prescribed to &quot;I don't believe that God exists, but there could be a God&quot; is the converse for you true as well (&quot;I believe God exist, but there also is a possibility that there is not God&quot?
>>



Believe it or not, that was one of my doubts that i once harbored. I used to ask myself, &quot;What if this is it? Sin feels so good, why not indulge? And for a time, i did. Later i realized that that part of me was just making excuses to sin. I was being tempted and lied to by the devil. But, as i said earlier, there were many times when i doubted God, yet he has shown me time and time again that he is real and he is God. This put to rest any notion in my mind that there is no God. I know in my heart that there is a God. And i worship the one true living God. He has performed so many miracles in my life, and i cannot call them coincidences because God is in control, so that means there is no such thing as a coincidence. God planned it that way. I know that it is hard to swallow, but my way of thinking requires faith. But that is also the hardest part of it all: you gotta believe. There comes a point in your life when all your ambitions, all your goals, everything that you thought would make you happy in your life, doesn't. You feel empty inside, and no matter what you do, no matter how hard you try, it won't go away. I'll tell you something: that emptiness was created by God so that in your desparity, you would search for God. I do not know when or if you will ever come to that realization, but i think most of you know what i am talking about. And most of you are probably still seeking to fill that hole. So you try to fill it with pleasures, with a gf/wife, with tv, or sports, or... computers... whatever it is that you idolize. You may think i am fanatical, and if you do, i say, thank you. Because unless i am different and set apart from this world, i will not know that i am truly a Christian. It says in Romans 12:2 &quot;Do not conform any longer to the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is: his good, pleasing and perfect will.&quot; Therefore, all of you that are hard-hearted towards the church because you felt unaccepted or rejected, just know that you were not exposed to Christianity, but rather a crude wanna-be religion. They have conformed to the world and fallen away from God. If the sermons are boring and the praise seems dead, the spirit is not moving in that church, and that church is dead. When you experience a true church, you will know it. If this is you, i encourage you to give God another chance. I know he has and will give you infinately more chances, because he has done so for me, even when i have spit in his face.
 

NeoHC421

Senior member
Jan 7, 2001
248
0
0


<< I prefer my own personal version of Christianity: No Hell involved

I just can't swallow the fact that God would send any person to burn for all of eternity because of mistakes made as a mortal being here on earth. Sure, perhaps there's some sort of &quot;Time Out&quot; in the great beyond. But Hell? I think not. Then again, that's just my opinion.

As for Christians/Religious Devout Peoples being sheep: just so much as the average person, whether they be atheist, christian, buddhist, etc. I'd say that the &quot;sheep&quot; aspect is more an outcome of demographic than belief. Then again, anyone who accuses others of being sheep usually isn't doing too well for themselves. But again, that's just my opinion.
>>



I'm sorry to be so harsh, but God made it clear in revelations that there is a hell, and there will be great weeping and gnashing of teeth. Hell is a dark, scary place, where God's wrath will come upon you for an eternity. But, there is a way out, and that is if you believe in Jesus Christ. God will not send you to hell for a couple mistakes, or for a lot of mistakes for that matter, as long as you come back to him and repent of your sins. Then he will wash you white as snow. Again and again. For as long as you'll come back to him, realizing that the penalty for any sin is death, yet Jesus paid that cost for you on the cross 2001 years ago.
 

NeoHC421

Senior member
Jan 7, 2001
248
0
0


<< now i don't care if you are a sheep, rabbit, jackass, or frog, but doesn't the bible call christians sheep? and jesus in the sheppard? and us non-christians are goats. i can't quote it, but don't i remember reading something like that in the bible(been a couple of years since i read it)?

if so...why would it bother you christians to be called sheep? if that is what your god says you are then rejoice in your sheepdom. if someone says you are a sheep, give'm the quote from the bible and thank them for their complement.

if not....just ignore me.
>>



this is true. and i thank you for bringing that up. Sheep are faithful and obey the calling of the master. They do not respond to any other voice than that of its master, so the label sheep is very appropriate. I can only hope that i will be like that till the end. so thank you.
But the reason why non-Christians are labeled goats is because goats are very stubborn animals, symbolizing that if you do not believe in Jesus, you are being stubborn in your own ways, and your own stubbornness will condemn you on judgement day.
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
0
0


<< I'm sorry to be so harsh, but God made it clear in revelations that there is a hell, and there will be great weeping and gnashing of teeth. Hell is a dark, scary place, where God's wrath will come upon you for an eternity. But, there is a way out, and that is if you believe in Jesus Christ. >>


Uhm, I thought that those myths in the bible were told by tribes in the Middle-East, thousands of years ago? How do you know those myths were created by a god? Please enlighten me

And back again to the original topic, meditation is even better than prayer. Meditation is much more intense, thus better for your body and mind.
 

NeoHC421

Senior member
Jan 7, 2001
248
0
0


<<
well guess all the other good and morally conscious non-christians are not going to heaven, hey? buddhists? taoists? hermetics? atheits?
>>


yes, because &quot;[Jesus] is the way, the truth and the life. Noone can go to the father except through [him].&quot;


<<
i dont' see any divine insight in that logic. and I don't see any logic in repentance, knowing if i don't, im going to a nasty place after i die. its a fear tactic, simple as that.
>>


When the bible speaks of fearing the Lord, it is referring to a kind of fear that is derived from reverence and awe, not of fearing as in fearing for your life. There is a difference, and when you fear the Lord out of reverence and awe, you will want to repent because as you get closer to the heart of God, you will realize how sinful you are, and how holy God is. I am starting to come to this realization, and i'll tell you, you realize just how disgusting and dispiccable your own sins are, so you ask God to forgive you and change your ways.


<<
repentance is knowing by your own individual conscience THAT you need to change your disagreeable ways and negative habits, not words from a bible. The bible should be considered a reference and a guide, not absolute truth. as Buddha once said: &quot;Do not place another head above yours&quot;. Yes, that means the Bible. He is saying even after you are taught from the teachings, you must investigate and applied those teachings in your life to see if it is valid. and that means going out of your inherent belief structure to do so. Simply, don't take your master's word for it. Buddhist views like that make more sense to me than the holy words of the bible: &quot;thou shall only believe in me, to be saved and granted eternal life.&quot;
>>


The bible is a reference, and oly when you truly understand and investigate those teachings, can you realize that it is the ultimate truth. Even the devil and his demons know that the bible is truth, but since they are fallen angels, they are already condemned to hell, and are on earth to take down as many people with them as they can.


<<
plus, heaven and hell is getting old. the complexity of this world and other abnormalities like spirits, planar entities, and ghosts don't fit the christian schema of the afterlife.

God is a fish in a big dark ocean, among many other fishes. He is not the totality as a governing body for this entire world, this entire universe. Do you seriously think God is it, the big kahuna? Bah..Such rapture is blindness, such beautiful rainbows you can't tear off your eyes.
>>


Let me ask you this: Out of all the religions in the world, what has happened to their leaders? Buddha is dead, so is Brigham Young, and so are all of the leaders of each religion. Except Christianity. Jesus died for our sins, but then he rose from the dead. Think about it. Jesus is the only one to conquer death, and in doing so, he proved his omnipotence and also proved that he is the creator.
 

NeoHC421

Senior member
Jan 7, 2001
248
0
0


<< NeoHC421,

It is exactly &quot;Christians&quot; such as yourself who have given most of the atheists such a poor view of Christian beliefs. Your assertations that most people will burn in Hell, and your &quot;judgement&quot; of those who do not believe the same things you do, are far more effective in driving people from your &quot;religion&quot; than anything any opposing viewpoints have ever come up with. Those views of &quot;Christianity&quot; turn off so many rational, intelligent people.

You preach strict obedience, and punishment for failure to comply, and yet blindly commit the same sins you accuse others of. You may feel that you are doing your &quot;God&quot; a service by preaching to those who have not yet found your way, yet you refuse to even accept as valid the views of those of us who believe in those ancient vitures such as tolerance, acceptance, and love for your fellow man. While we believe in tolerating other viewpoints, you expect us to adopt yours without question. Your closed mind prevents you from seeing this.

I'll tell you again, though you'll continue to ignore it, that you are only forcing people further from the Message. You'll simply shake your head, though, and think that if only I would see it your way, I would understand. Your &quot;religion&quot; has perverted the original Message, and it is finally putting the nails into its own self-inflicted coffin. People will continue to be turned away from your &quot;message&quot;, until you learn to encourage faith, not obedience, tolerance and love, not conformity-or-else, and spirituality and ideas instead of blind adherence to the &quot;facts&quot; of allegorical stories.

That is not to take away from any of the true teachings of the Bible. Many people of faith believe that Christ died for our sins, and at the same time see how Muslims, Buddhists, and Jews are all also correct. We follow and believe in the virtues taught, not the judgments and condemnations that were only parts of the story.
>>



I have never said that you have to accept what i believe. I was simply clarifying that if you profess to be a Christian, this is true message. As for you, you seem as if you just say the same thing to every other Christian, but i am not so. I have never expressed non-tolerance. On the contrary, I have explored other religions of the world, but every time i have been pointed to Christianity. And, not to be rude, but worshipping what i had for lunch, or praising a dead guy turned me away, just as many people have turned away from Christianity. I understand that because i have been through that myself. Many times in my life, i have rejected God. When my cousin died in a car accident, and when my grandparents passed away, I was angry with God, but then i began to see the big picture, and why they had to die. But every time i fell, he chased after me because i was a lost sheep. But now that i am in the light, will you condemn me for shining it in this dark, dark world? Many of my good friends are non-Christians, and all of those points you have raised have been also raised by them, but they have never accused me of being non-tolerant and such because i believe it is wrong for me to judge other people or their beliefs. The rebukings on this forum were directed to the &quot;christians&quot; who may read this, but have heard a watered-down message, or are fallen away. In no means did i intend to offend you. I have said that true Christians are accepting of other people, not judgemental of outsiders, but You have simply passed me off another closed-minded christian, but you did not give me a chance. And if I did not love, would I share my faith with you? I am here because i believe that the original message has been deranged and changed to conform to the likings of this world. Like in the early church, people wanted numbers of people, and so they altered the message to make people feel better about themselves, to make them feel as if they did nothing wrong, and that's why there are so many lukewarm &quot;christians&quot; in the world.
 

jhu

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,918
9
81
Let me ask you this: Out of all the religions in the world, what has happened to their leaders? Buddha is dead, so is Brigham Young, and so are all of the leaders of each religion. Except Christianity. Jesus died for our sins, but then he rose from the dead. Think about it. Jesus is the only one to conquer death, and in doing so, he proved his omnipotence and also proved that he is the creator.

your responses don't make much sense. of course they're all dead. so's jesus. and your sources for his resurrection are reliable? then what'd he do? float up into &quot;heaven&quot;?

buddha: he was enlightened so he broke the cycle of death/reincarnation. so he's not really dead
by: well if what he really believed was true then he's really in heaven so he's not dead.
mohammed: ditto
 

NeoHC421

Senior member
Jan 7, 2001
248
0
0


<<
your responses don't make much sense. of course they're all dead. so's jesus. and your sources for his resurrection are reliable? then what'd he do? float up into &quot;heaven&quot;?

buddha: he was enlightened so he broke the cycle of death/reincarnation. so he's not really dead
by: well if what he really believed was true then he's really in heaven so he's not dead.
mohammed: ditto
>>



Actually, Jesus DID ascend into heaven.
I see your point about buddha, but if buddha is not dead, where is he? (i don't want to sound condescending, i really want to know)
but by and mohammed both died. Jesus died but rose from the dead and then ascended into heaven, so Jesus is NOT dead.
 

jhu

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,918
9
81
and people saw him rise to heaven? how? he'd be sucking vacuum by about 10 miles at most. why ascend? why not just disappear? the whole &quot;up to heaven&quot; and &quot;down to hell&quot; distinctions don't make any sense. buddha is allegedly in another plane of existance.
 

Urinal Mint

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2000
2,074
0
0
Personally I feel it's much more important to be good to/for other people rather than run in the church every time the doors are open to beat your Good Book and lambast those around you with the Word of Jesus.

What the world needs is more people being good to one another, rather than arguing the semantics of (a) God's existence. Then again, this just goes back to the reasoning that people spend way too much fscking time worrying about other people's lives and beliefs rather than taking care of themselves.
 

Yuto

Member
May 21, 2001
113
0
0


<< Personally I feel it's much more important to be good to/for other people rather than run in the church every time the doors are open to beat your Good Book and lambast those around you with the Word of Jesus.

What the world needs is more people being good to one another, rather than arguing the semantics of (a) God's existence. Then again, this just goes back to the reasoning that people spend way too much fscking time worrying about other people's lives and beliefs rather than taking care of themselves.
>>



Amen, brother!
 

Urinal Mint

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2000
2,074
0
0


<<
I'm sorry to be so harsh, but God made it clear in revelations that there is a hell, and there will be great weeping and gnashing of teeth. Hell is a dark, scary place, where God's wrath will come upon you for an eternity. But, there is a way out, and that is if you believe in Jesus Christ. God will not send you to hell for a couple mistakes, or for a lot of mistakes for that matter, as long as you come back to him and repent of your sins. Then he will wash you white as snow. Again and again. For as long as you'll come back to him, realizing that the penalty for any sin is death, yet Jesus paid that cost for you on the cross 2001 years ago.
>>



This is the exact rubbish I am talking about. You, as a devout Christian, are too worried about what I'm doing with my life. I grow really tired of people arguing me the fact that I will, in fact, go to Hell because I don't believe in this holy dude named Jesus Christ.

I absolutely will not go to Hell, no matter what I believe. I am good to people, and good for people... but what you're saying to me with this biased and close-minded statement is that if I don't &quot;take&quot; Jesus Christ into my life, I will spend eternity in this really hot and horrible place called Hell. No way man, not me. I'm too nice for that sh1t.

If I go to Hell after a lifetime of being good for people, respecting other's beliefs, etc., then I am going to be one pissed off mofo when I get there.

All of you guys are going to be sorely mistaken when you die... and everything just kinda turns off, and it all fades to black.
 

brennan

Senior member
Oct 11, 1999
330
0
0
I saw most of &quot;Hannah and her Sisters&quot; this weekend, and it had a great quote:

&quot;If Jesus came back and saw the things that were being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up.&quot;

I dunno why, it just really struck me as really funny. I have to go see more older Woody Allen stuff.

-brennan
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0


<< then I am going to be one pissed off mofo when I get there. >>

Threatening you with how you will spend you afterlife gives them power over you in this life.
 

NeoHC421

Senior member
Jan 7, 2001
248
0
0


<< and people saw him rise to heaven? how? he'd be sucking vacuum by about 10 miles at most. why ascend? why not just disappear? the whole &quot;up to heaven&quot; and &quot;down to hell&quot; distinctions don't make any sense. buddha is allegedly in another plane of existance. >>



Yes, people saw him rise to heaven.
So being in another plane of existance makes sense?
All religion is, is faith. Why? because faith leads to hope, and hope is what keeps us going on this planet. This discussion on religion, as you know, can go on forever. But i have faith that those of you who are truly seeking God will find him. Who you believe to be God is up to you. I can only be a witness to my God, and tell of the mighty things he has done in my life. I think that is the most powerful thing of all; being a witness to your God, so that others may be enlightened. The only thing i ask is that noone harden their hearts, and be willing to listen to others, and accept that others can believe things different to your own beliefs. It will always be that way, and you can't expect everyone else to think like you. God made everyone different. And for you darwinists, natural selection made everyone different. As such, i do not expect all of you to accept my beliefs as your own. I am not here to convert all of you, because many of you are not willing to listen, and as reitz said, it would only draw people further from Christianity. But for those who are truly seeking, i believe that you will hear me out. If you think that there is a God, but do not know who he is, i suggest that you meditate deeply on it, and even try to pray to God. I am convinced that you will find him.
 

Optimus

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2000
3,618
0
0
Here's a belief:

***
Although I, as someone who believes in God, disagree with the atheists and agnostics on this topic, I do not think it is fair or just to insult them as &quot;sheep&quot;, &quot;morons&quot;, or &quot;idiots&quot;, nor do I call thier belief (or lack thereof) these same things, and I do not wish them to &quot;drink poison and die&quot;.
***

Does anyone disagree with the above belief? How about the converse? (i.e. not to insult the religious for believing)?


Red: The Bible-Thumpers condemning gays and non-christians to a fiery hell, yes they use that for power. But they no more represent me or my faith than they do yours.
 

Urinal Mint

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2000
2,074
0
0


<< Threatening you with how you will spend you afterlife gives them power over you in this life. >>



Sounds like an overbearing parent, eh?
 
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