Talking Taiwan

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

There has been a lot of clutter on the Ukraine thread about possible future issues surrounding Taiwan.

I'm really a lot more undecided there than about Ukraine. I said early on I didn't really care much about Ukraine, but that was before they took a stand and showed that they weren't really still a Russian enclave.

Taiwan on the other hand isn't even a recognized country in the eyes of the UN or most of the world. Chinese government officials fled to there in refuge and it seemed for a long time that they might want to rejoin the mainland in one form or another. They haven't really taken action either way in all the time they've been there.

Now, when under threat of reunification, they want to put up a fight, but I still haven't seen any progress on the world stage of recognizing them as an independent nation. In fact, at least some countries have moved their representatives away.

If this is all economics, or just 'anti-China aggression', should we really be making so much of an issue about it?

 

[K1052]

I think the choice of joining China or not should be up to the Taiwanese who so far have not taken them up on the offer.

They are a defacto nation regardless of the diplomatic contortions over the years to avoid upsetting the PRC.

 

[Brainonska511]

It's an issue of self determination. If Taiwan wants to reunify, they can choose to do so. They shouldn't be forced to do so by threat of violence.

And it's also in our national strategic and economic interest to have an independent Taiwan, given the concentration of advanced semiconductor manufacturing in the de facto country.

 

[Jaskalas]

If this is all economics, or just 'anti-China aggression', should we really be making so much of an issue about it?

What aggression could Taiwan possibly threaten China with?
The threat is one sided, and originates entirely from mainland China.

For the sanctity of life, for morality, it is our duty to ward off invasions and to kill aggressors.
For invading armies often act like Hamas, or ISIS, or Russians. With genocide and torture for their victims. China attacking Taiwan would be no different.

If you ever believed in not facing those things for yourself and your loved ones, you will support innocent defenders against blood thirsty invaders.
Why not? What argument could there possibly be, for a person to endorse genocide and ethnic cleansing?

 

[sdifox]

There has been a lot of clutter on the Ukraine thread about possible future issues surrounding Taiwan.

I'm really a lot more undecided there than about Ukraine. I said early on I didn't really care much about Ukraine, but that was before they took a stand and showed that they weren't really still a Russian enclave.

Taiwan on the other hand isn't even a recognized country in the eyes of the UN or most of the world. Chinese government officials fled to there in refuge and it seemed for a long time that they might want to rejoin the mainland in one form or another. They haven't really taken action either way in all the time they've been there.

Now, when under threat of reunification, they want to put up a fight, but I still haven't seen any progress on the world stage of recognizing them as an independent nation. In fact, at least some countries have moved their representatives away.

If this is all economics, or just 'anti-China aggression', should we really be making so much of an issue about it?

Taiwan Relations Act - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Taiwan has no interest to join PRC. Anyone that want to be part of the PRC can move to the PRC.

 

[JTsyo]

They haven't really taken action either way in all the time they've been there.

They been arming up for a long time to prevent a Chinese invasion. This is not something new.

 

[iRONic]

You would have to have been living under a rock for the last two decades not to know that Taiwan was making provisions to defend herself.

 

[cytg111]

Dumb fucking question

But why do China want Taiwan? The second shit goes down TSMC and friends are tf out of there and setting a torch to the place. There is no spoils of war to be had here.

So it'll be, worst case, a decade before Intel is up to snuff at "3nm" and below US domestically and who knows where TSMC and friends are gonna operate out of going forward.

Isnt it easier for China to snoop semiconductor IP when shit is operating in Taiwan than... *anywhere* else? Looks to be the perfect honeypot to me?

 

[JTsyo]

Dumb fucking question

But why do China want Taiwan? The second shit goes down TSMC and friends are tf out of there and setting a torch to the place. There is no spoils of war to be had here.

So it'll be, worst case, a decade before Intel is up to snuff at "3nm" and below US domestically and who knows where TSMC and friends are gonna operate out of going forward.

Isnt it easier for China to snoop semiconductor IP when shit is operating in Taiwan than... *anywhere* else? Looks to be the perfect honeypot to me?

For China it's not about semi-conductors. It's land that they believe belongs to them but is in rebellion. It's only about 100 miles off the coast. Also having Taiwan would increase their control over the South China Sea and break the first island chain the US supports around China.

 

[cytg111]

But they'd be without chips and effectively shut out of the AI revolution.
(I know China has produced 5nm domestically but it's at a sky high cost, not viable for mass production IIRC).

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Taiwan is Chinese that fled the revolution (simplified version). Is the eyes of the Chinese at least some of those that fled are criminals (if any are still alive).

Yes, Taiwan has been busy arming, but have they been busy trying to get into the UN, who does not recognize them as a country? Why isn't the west making similar noises about Hong Kong?

Taiwan is more like PR or the USVI arming against the US and expecting international assistance. OK, not exactly, but still ...

Ukraine was a well established independent nation and has a much better case for assistance.

 

[sdifox]

Taiwan is Chinese that fled the revolution (simplified version). Is the eyes of the Chinese at least some of those that fled are criminals (if any are still alive).

Yes, Taiwan has been busy arming, but have they been busy trying to get into the UN, who does not recognize them as a country? Why isn't the west making similar noises about Hong Kong?

Taiwan is more like PR or the USVI arming against the US and expecting international assistance. OK, not exactly, but still ...

Ukraine was a well established independent nation and has a much better case for assistance.

Did you know that Carter dropped the recognition of ROC and switched to recognizing PRC? ROC was on the UN security council before then...

USA fucks ROC over and you are questioning why ROC doesn't want to join UN? Maybe PRC won't let them?

Milestones: 1977–1980 - Office of the Historian

history.state.gov 3.0 shell

history.state.gov

 

[igor_kavinski]

To me, Russia wanting Ukraine or China wanting Taiwan is all about ego and nothing else.

I would rather the blasted people in these countries be vaporised who would want to start a war or occupation just to satisfy their egos. Such bloodthirsty animals resembling humans should not exist. Or be allowed to exist. Period.

 

[iRONic]

Taiwan is more like PR or the USVI arming against the US and expecting international assistance. OK, not exactly, but still ...

…and then you add that disjointed pablum?!?!

I can‘t even…

 

[Jaskalas]

To me, Russia wanting Ukraine or China wanting Taiwan is all about ego and nothing else.

Land holds value and resources. It also provides physical space and access to other areas.
There is power to seize from other people, and if no one is going to stop you....
It is the story of how the USA was born. It is the story of humanity, to continue behaving as we always have. As genocidal monsters.

I want the use of force used against any who would continue such abuse and stealing of land. Ethnic cleansing must be stopped.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

China invading Taiwan would be suicide. America would nuke them before letting them take Taiwan.

 

[MrSquished]

according to @fskimospy if we believe there is a realistic threat that China will invade Taiwan, which there is, we should pre-emptively attack China. This is his logic as he has said countless times, if you think the MAGA threat is so real as to threaten our democracy, then the only logical thing to do is to attack them first.

Let's pray to baby Jesus that people in power are not that stupid.

 

[Drach]

China invading Taiwan would be suicide. America would nuke them before letting them take Taiwan.

Doubtful. If China nuked Taiwan I could see that being a possible response.
The United States will defend Taiwan.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

Doubtful. If China nuked Taiwan I could see that being a possible response.
The United States will defend Taiwan.

The US will defend Taiwan with everything they have against China and at any cost. Taiwan is way too important to the US because of TSMC and no way they're letting them fall into China's hands.

 

[Drach]

The US will defend Taiwan with everything they have against China and at any cost. Taiwan is way too important to the US because of TSMC and no way they're letting them fall into China's hands.

The US will never even think about nuking China unless they start dropping nukes first.

 

[cytg111]

Wonder what the global economic hit would look like if Taiwan stopped pressing chips overnight?

edit: Of course there's plenty of pieces on that.

Why war with China over Taiwan could ruin the global economy

Taiwan makes the world’s most advanced memory chips — the brains inside every piece of technology from smartphones and modern cars to artificial intelligence and fighter jets.

www.nbcnews.com

The microchip industry would implode if China invaded Taiwan, and it would affect everyone

The disruption of Taiwan’s chip industry would affect everyone.

theconversation.com

 

[Drach]

Wonder what the global economic hit would look like if Taiwan stopped pressing chips overnight?

It literally hurts all countries equally.

 

[cytg111]

It literally hurts all countries equally.

Well, probably not equally, but it's gonna be a gigantic hit for sure.

List of Intel manufacturing sites - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Drach]

Well, probably not equally, but it's gonna be a gigantic hit for sure.

List of Intel manufacturing sites - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yes possibly some more than others. The biggest loser would be mainland china.

 

[akugami]

What aggression could Taiwan possibly threaten China with?
The threat is one sided, and originates entirely from mainland China.

For the sanctity of life, for morality, it is our duty to ward off invasions and to kill aggressors.
For invading armies often act like Hamas, or ISIS, or Russians. With genocide and torture for their victims. China attacking Taiwan would be no different.

If you ever believed in not facing those things for yourself and your loved ones, you will support innocent defenders against blood thirsty invaders.
Why not? What argument could there possibly be, for a person to endorse genocide and ethnic cleansing?

Playing devil's advocate. China views Taiwan as a territory that tried to secede during a civil war. No different from the USA with the north and the south, during our own civil war. To the Chinese, outsiders are sticking their nose into another sovereign state's internal affairs.

Regardless of what is the truth, and how China feels, at this point I don't believe forceful reunification is in the best interest of Taiwan. I think that does more harm than good at this point. Now, should Taiwan choose to reunify, that is up to them. Taiwan is not stupid. Taiwan is not blind. They saw what China has done with Hong Kong.