Tankless water heaters?

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
687
126
Anyone have experience with tankless water heaters? I have a 50 gallon natural gas water heater from 2006 that has developed a drip at the bottom. I'm assuming I'm probably OK to wait until Monday to call a plumber out to look at it, but in the event that it isn't a simple valve replacement, I'll have to replace it. Any thoughts or pros/cons on going tankless? It looks like tankless water heater prices have dropped way down since I last looked so it appears they're only slightly more expensive than a storage model.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
3,067
121
I need to replace mine myself soon it's going out and need something more efficient.

I'd considered a tank less in the past, but depending which way you go I've seen mixed reviews myself. Have been a bit curious about how well they work myself these days.

Bought this house in 94 and the water heater was a little old then and have replaced the elements once over time myself and cleaned a ton of calcium out of it then, I'm just considering getting a new electric tank more efficient one, as I do not have gas available.
 
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MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
1,594
126
Tankless water heaters work differently. They don't heat to a specific temperature although software and thermostats give somewhat the same functionality. They increase the temp. delta a specific amount over the incoming water temp. So, water gets hotter in the summer than in the winter. It's also based on water flow which can be counter intuitive to the user. To raise the temperature, you need to decrease the hot water supply.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
687
126
I need to replace mine myself soon it's going out and need something more efficient.

I'd considered a tank less in the past, but depending which way you go I've seen mixed reviews myself. Have been a bit curious about how they worl myself these days.

Bought this house in 94 and the water heater was a little old then and have replaced the elements once over time myself and cleaned a ton of calcium out of it then, I'm just considering getting a new electric tank more efficient one, as I do not have gas available.

Just read that it might be necessary to upgrade some of the attachment plumbing and vent pipe for a tankless model, which may not be something I want to tackle at this stage if true. If it is just a fitting that needs replaced, I'll do that and start planning to replace it in the next couple of years and research my options.
 
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MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
3,067
121
Tankless water heaters work differently. They don't heat to a specific temperature although software and thermostats give somewhat the same functionality. They increase the temp. delta a specific amount over the incoming water temp. So, water gets hotter in the summer than in the winter. It's also based on water flow which can be counter intuitive to the user. To raise the temperature, you need to decrease the hot water supply.


Yeah, one of the reasons I had considered trying one in the past as the ground water pretty warm in FL most the time anyways incoming.
 
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waffleironhead

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
6,938
455
136
Tankless water heaters work differently. They don't heat to a specific temperature although software and thermostats give somewhat the same functionality. They increase the temp. delta a specific amount over the incoming water temp. So, water gets hotter in the summer than in the winter. It's also based on water flow which can be counter intuitive to the user. To raise the temperature, you need to decrease the hot water supply.

Your knowledge seems outdated, or tied to a specific model. If I set my tankless to 120 or 112 degrees, that is exactly what comes out of the tap, regardless of flow or incoming water temp.
 

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,910
2,141
126
They're not good for larger homes. You need 2-3 of them and by then the cost savings is eaten up.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
1,594
126
Your knowledge seems outdated, or tied to a specific model. If I set my tankless to 120 or 112 degrees, that is exactly what comes out of the tap, regardless of flow or incoming water temp.

Only because your water temp never falls below a certain temp. Read your manual to find out the specific delta of your model.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
3,067
121
They're not good for larger homes. You need 2-3 of them and by then the cost savings is eaten up.
Yeah, I thought about as much.

I think I'm just going with a newer more efficient tank very soon myself.
 

NetWareHead

THAT guy
Aug 10, 2002
5,847
154
106
Just read that it might be necessary to upgrade some of the attachment plumbing and vent pipe for a tankless model, which may not be something I want to tackle at this stage if true. If it is just a fitting that needs replaced, I'll do that and start planning to replace it in the next couple of years and research my options.

That is true. Tankless water heater consumes far more gas during operation than a regular storage model. Tankless models have a minimum gas line size and a minimum exhaust vent size. Check the documentation.
 

T9D

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2001
5,320
6
0
I hate the things. It's always inconsistent heat. For a bath it's fine. But trying to adjust the water flow up or down or turn it on and off they constantly are all over the place with the temperature. Or if someone else does something at the same time, or something else is running. It drives me nuts. And don't say it's the model. They all do it. It's the nature of them trying to adjust and catch up constantly. Maybe most people won't notice as much and think about it but I definitely can tell and it's very bothersome. Plus they are loud as hell. Every time you turn on the water it's Wooooo AHhHHHH WOOOOOOO Ahhhhh Ahhhhh WOOOOOOO. So annoying.

Regular tank heating is very consistent and quiet. If you have a very big family and use lots of hot water you can daisy chain regular water tank heaters. I doubt you save much money either on energy with tankless. My regular water tank heaters are always electric and in the summer my electric bill is like $20, which means the water heater can't barely be any of that.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
I hate the things. It's always inconsistent heat. For a bath it's fine. But trying to adjust the water flow up or down or turn it on and off they constantly are all over the place with the temperature. Or if someone else does something at the same time, or something else is running. It drives me nuts. And don't say it's the model. They all do it. It's the nature of them trying to adjust and catch up constantly. Maybe most people won't notice as much and think about it but I definitely can tell and it's very bothersome. Plus they are loud as hell. Every time you turn on the water it's Wooooo AHhHHHH WOOOOOOO Ahhhhh Ahhhhh WOOOOOOO. So annoying.

Regular tank heating is very consistent and quiet. If you have a very big family and use lots of hot water you can daisy chain regular water tank heaters. I doubt you save much money either on energy with tankless. My regular water tank heaters are always electric and in the summer my electric bill is like $20, which means the water heater can't barely be any of that.

Temperature compensating shower valve.

EDIT; why are you taking a shower while you know the dishwasher or clothes washer are running. Going too small on the tankless heater? 12 gal/min should heat water for two baths, washer easy.
 
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KK

Lifer
Jan 2, 2001
15,903
4
81
Your knowledge seems outdated, or tied to a specific model. If I set my tankless to 120 or 112 degrees, that is exactly what comes out of the tap, regardless of flow or incoming water temp.

120 or 112 degrees, whats the normal house set on? 112 I'd imagine woulld be way too cool. 120 even seems a tad low.
 

cbrsurfr

Golden Member
Jul 15, 2000
1,686
1
81
I had to replace my water heater recently. I looked at tankless but I would need more than 1 not to mention a lot of modifications to install them + professional installation. From the reviews it seemed a lot were still having trouble with boards going out and huge $$$ repairs. This was going to cost thousands. I'd never see a return on that investment.

Then I looked at energy star rated traditional tank heaters. They are about 75% more $$$ than a regular tank but only save about $38 per year. Break even point for me was about 8 years and worse if I had it installed professionally in order to get the measly $100 rebate.

So I just went with a regular old tank and then signed up for the free water savings kit from my local gas company. New shower heads, kitchen faucet and bath aerators.
 

T_Yamamoto

Lifer
Jul 6, 2011
15,007
795
126
We have a tankless water heater. Ours uses natural gas and the main unit is attached outside and under our house. The downside I found was that the smell of gas coming from the vent is, well, gassy. As long as you're not within 10 feet of it, you can't smell it, but when you're mowing the lawn, its a pain in the ass.

Our water is actually hotter than before, compared to a tank based water heater which we had in our attic that began to leak. (which leaked through the attic and onto my brother's bed. Luckily, we caught the leak before it leaked into the floor)
 

Mark R

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
8,513
16
81
I hate the things. It's always inconsistent heat.
I must admit I prefer tanks, but the latest tankless or combination boiler/tankless heaters are very impressive.

Precise modulation ensures a stable temperature despite variable flow rates. High power burners of up to 40 kW, ensure that even high flow-rates in mid-Winter don't result in temperature drops. Rapid heat up due to the high power, and some even include a small tank (so they're not really tankless) to provide truly instant hot water.

Plus with condensing heat exchangers and lambda-controlled closed-loop air/gas control, they are safer and more efficient than ever before.
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
23,807
1,385
126
They're not good for larger homes. You need 2-3 of them and by then the cost savings is eaten up.
Huh? How big is your house, 10000 square feet?

Consumer tankless water heaters go up to 199000 BTU, which is fine for a pretty big house. In Florida it'd handle 3 showers simultaneously probably, or at least 2 plus extra. In Indiana, 2 showers in the winter max.

For a medium or large sized house in Indiana, I'd recommend a 199000 BTU model.



I hate the things. It's always inconsistent heat. For a bath it's fine. But trying to adjust the water flow up or down or turn it on and off they constantly are all over the place with the temperature. Or if someone else does something at the same time, or something else is running. It drives me nuts. And don't say it's the model. They all do it. It's the nature of them trying to adjust and catch up constantly. Maybe most people won't notice as much and think about it but I definitely can tell and it's very bothersome. Plus they are loud as hell. Every time you turn on the water it's Wooooo AHhHHHH WOOOOOOO Ahhhhh Ahhhhh WOOOOOOO. So annoying.
It sounds like you have lower end plumbing fixtures. A good mid-end shower fixture will keep temp constant, even when hot water volume decreases.

With my modern fixtures and my modern 199000 BTU tankless, I never have the above issue.

Regular tank heating is very consistent and quiet. If you have a very big family and use lots of hot water you can daisy chain regular water tank heaters. I doubt you save much money either on energy with tankless. My regular water tank heaters are always electric and in the summer my electric bill is like $20, which means the water heater can't barely be any of that.
Tankless won't save you money. The primary reason to go tankless is to get endless hot water, or else to save space.

In my case I had a 50 gallon tank, but it wouldn't fill up my Kohler 2-person tub. Due to the layout of my utility rooms, I couldn't install a 75 gallon tank, but it was a moot point, since 75-gallon tank heaters with motorized venting cost as much as tankless water heaters anyway.

So, I went tankless. Now I never run out of hot water, for obvious reasons.

That is not to say I wholeheartedly recommend tankless. There are still advantages to tanks:

1) Faster filling (until it runs out).
2) Still have hot water in a power outage. (However, I have my tankless on a battery backup. Mine needs about 40 Watts when running.)
3) Only need to change the anode rod after a few years. No yearly or biyearly chemical flush required like tankless.
4) No cold water sandwich effect. (However, I don't have that either, because I installed a 6 gallon tank to eliminate the cold water sandwich.)
5) Water reaches fixtures faster by about 10 seconds or so. (However, my 6 gallon tank eliminates this tankless delay.)
6) Probably cheaper than tankless overall, esp. if you can install a non-power-vented model.

Your knowledge seems outdated, or tied to a specific model. If I set my tankless to 120 or 112 degrees, that is exactly what comes out of the tap, regardless of flow or incoming water temp.
Indeed. I've measured mine. I set mine at 125, and it's always about 124 according to my meat thermometer, regardless of the flow rate. I'd say that's within an acceptable margin of error.

In the dead of winter the flow is slower, but it's still fine to have a shower and a dishwasher working at the same time. I'm not sure what the incoming water temp is for the other posters in this thread, but in many areas even in temperate zones, even in winter the water isn't that cold, because it's ground water. In Toronto where I live the temperature is more of an issue, because the water comes from Lake Ontario, which gets a lot colder in the winter.

But even then, for my big house, the volume is fine in the dead of winter. We don't have 3 showers running though. Two shower works, but at the coldest times of the year I notice there is small decrease in the shower water volume for each shower when two are running simultaneously.

I might decrease the temp to 120 though, because we have a young kid in the house. 120 F is the usual recommended temp for homes, because it takes minutes to scald.
 
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who?

Platinum Member
Sep 1, 2012
2,327
42
91
Tankless is so your aged parent can wash her hands with warm water after peeing in the middle of the night without having to wait for the hot water to get there. She has a small unit under her bathroom sink.
Since a tankless unit isn't keeping a tank full of water hot 24/7 why doesn't it save energy?
 
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Humpy

Diamond Member
Mar 3, 2011
4,463
596
126
I was being fictious actually, why would you want a boiler in a house ?

Wut? I guess it's for the same reason you would want hot water and a warm house in the winter without spending a lot for fuel.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
3,067
121
Wut? I guess it's for the same reason you would want hot water and a warm house in the winter without spending a lot for fuel.
Our definitions of a boiler must be quite different, but NM.

That or I really don't need a boiler in Florida.
 
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