Tankless waterheaters

Jun 19, 2004
10,861
1
81
For what it's worth my friend just became a field claims agent for Nationwide and everyone training her has said tell people to NOT get tankless water heaters as they are extremely problematic and leak a lot. I have no first hand knowledge though.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
Our water heater is 12 years old, when it goes I think we may go tankless. From my understanding, we'll save a lot on our energy bill over the years. I don't take very long showers, but my wife does at times. So a tankless can give her unlimited hot water.

The downsides are that the amount of hot water it can output can vary. In winter when ice cold water comes into the home it will not be able to make as much hot water. It'll still be a non issue for taking a shower. But taking a shower with the dishwasher running and the clothes washer running may be a problem. As long as you get a unit that is big enough you should be fine.

And the other potential downside is that plumbing has to be rerouted. A tankless isn't a straight swap like another standard water heater would be.

But I imagine it should save money over time.
 

waffleironhead

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
6,924
437
136
Tankless water heaters are great. Where do you live though? Your groundwater temperature will be a limiting factor on the flow rate of the heater. My farm has a tankless that I put in and the ground water is ~48 degrees. So, the rise to hot is quite a bit more than southern states. This limit my tankless to only one operation at a time. Shower is fine, plus a bath sink. But never two showers at once.

The best thing is the unlimited supply of hot water. To run out of hot water you either need to run out of water or fuel. Don't expect to see energy savings as your family will probably spend a lot more time under the water, knowing it wont run out.
 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,408
57
91
Now you've got me interested. But I'd need an electric one, and reviews aren't good. Needs lots of power and they can be problematic..
 

KaOTiK

Lifer
Feb 5, 2001
10,877
8
81
I've had one for around 8 years now and love it. Saves on money, frees up room, and unlimited hot water. It works flawlessly and I can say without any doubt I will never go back regular water heater ever again. Most gas companies seem to have some type of rebate system for them too since it is a big time energy saver.
 

Xed

Golden Member
Nov 15, 2003
1,453
0
71
I've had one for around 8 years now and love it. Saves on money, frees up room, and unlimited hot water. It works flawlessly and I can say without any doubt I will never go back regular water heater ever again.

This.

Mine is a Bosch natural gas model. No issues since it was installed in 2005.
 

Squisher

Lifer
Aug 17, 2000
21,207
66
91
This is dated 2008

Tankless water heaters
They're efficient but not necessarily economical

  VIDEO:
Tankless water heaters
All videos


Heating water accounts for up to 30 percent of the average home's energy budget. Some makers of gas-fired tankless water heaters claim their products can cut your energy costs up to half over regular storage heaters. So is it time to switch?

Probably not. Gas tankless water heaters, which use high-powered burners to quickly heat water as it runs through a heat exchanger, were 22 percent more energy efficient on average than the gas-fired storage-tank models in our tests. That translates into a savings of around $70 to $80 per year, based on 2008 national energy costs. But because they cost much more than storage water heaters, it can take up to 22 years to break even—longer than the 20-year life of many models. Moreover, our online poll of 1,200 readers revealed wide variations in installation costs, energy savings, and satisfaction.

With the help of an outside lab, we pitted Takagi and Noritz gas-fired tankless water heaters against three storage water heaters. We didn't test electric tankless heaters because many can't deliver hot water fast enough to replace a conventional water heater if ground­water is cold. Even in areas with warm groundwater, most homeowners would need to upgrade their electrical service to power a whole-house tankless model.

Our tests simulated daily use of 76 to 78 gallons of hot water. That's the equivalent of taking three showers, washing one laun­dry load, running the dishwasher once (six cycles), and turning on the faucet nine times, for a total of 19 draws. While that's considered heavy use compared with the standard Department of Energy test, we think it more accurately represents an average family's habits. We also ran more than 45,000 gallons of very hard water through a tanked model and a Rinnai tankless model to simulate about 11 years of regular use.

Here's what else we found:

Water runs hot and cold
Manufacturers of tankless water heaters are fond of touting their products' ability to provide an endless amount of hot water. But inconsistent water temperatures were a common complaint among our poll respondents. When you turn on the faucet, tankless models feed in some cold water to gauge how big a temperature rise is needed. If there's cool water lingering in your pipes, you'll receive a momentary "cold-water sandwich" between the old and new hot water. And a tankless water heater's burner might not ignite when you try to get just a trickle of hot water for, say, shaving.

Nor do tankless water heaters deliver hot water instantaneously. It takes time to heat the water to the target temperature, and just like storage water heaters, any cold water in the pipes needs to be pushed out. And tankless models' electric controls mean you'll also lose hot water during a power outage.

Up-front costs are high
The tankless water heaters we tested cost $800 to $1,150, compared with $300 to $480 for the regular storage-tank types. Tankless models need electrical outlets for their fan and electronics, upgraded gas pipes, and a new ventilation system. That can bring average installation costs to $1,200, compared with $300 for storage-tank models.

Tankless units might need more care
During our long-term testing, an indicator on the tankless model warned of scale buildup. We paid $334 for special valves and a plumber to flush out the water heater with vinegar. Many industry pros recommend that tankless models be serviced once a year by a qualified technician. Calcium buildup can decrease efficiency, restrict water flow, and damage tankless models. Experts suggest installing a water softener if your water hardness is above 11 grains per gallon. Ignoring this advice can shorten your warranty.

Efficient storage models are pricey
We also tested the $1,400 Vertex, a high-efficiency storage water heater by A.O. Smith. The manufacturer claims its installation costs are similar to a regular storage model. But its high cost offsets much of the roughly $70 per year the Vertex will save you. Instead, we recommend buying a conventional storage water heater with a 9- or 12-year warranty. In previous tests, we found that those models generally had thicker insulation, bigger burners or larger heating elements, and better corrosion-fighting metal rods called anodes.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,937
12,384
126
www.anyf.ca
I've considered it, though our incoming water is near the freezing point here, so most would have trouble heating it enough. That's a pretty big delta requirement. With a tank, it just takes longer, but it does eventually reach the right temp. They are also rather new so I'd personally wait till they become more mainstream.

The one you link looks good though. The two pipes tell me it must be an intake and exhaust for combustion, and if it's just PVC then most of the heat goes to the water, so it's very efficient. I've also looked at electric ones as they are more DIY friendly but you almost need a dedicated 100 amp panel just for it LOL.
 
Last edited:

coldmeat

Diamond Member
Jul 10, 2007
9,214
78
91
Our water heater is 12 years old, when it goes I think we may go tankless. From my understanding, we'll save a lot on our energy bill over the years. I don't take very long showers, but my wife does at times. So a tankless can give her unlimited hot water.

The downsides are that the amount of hot water it can output can vary. In winter when ice cold water comes into the home it will not be able to make as much hot water. It'll still be a non issue for taking a shower. But taking a shower with the dishwasher running and the clothes washer running may be a problem. As long as you get a unit that is big enough you should be fine.

And the other potential downside is that plumbing has to be rerouted. A tankless isn't a straight swap like another standard water heater would be.

But I imagine it should save money over time.

Who washes their clothes with hot water anymore?
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,135
1,594
126
Tankless water heaters are quite good. The problem some have with inconsistent temps is not a fault of the heater but, of the fixture. When you open a faucet, unlike with regular tank heaters, the flow (volume of water) is inversely proportional to the temp. In other words, with a tankless heater, less water means higher temperature. Many of the better tankless heaters have staged heating cycles with the ability to heat more water when the demand increases. However, if people simply use the fixtures as they've always use them, the water will get hot, cool and, then remain warm. It requires educating everyone in the family.
 

Dubb

Platinum Member
Mar 25, 2003
2,495
0
0
I don't recommend them to clients (I'm in Architecture) largely for the reasons in Squisher's article, and in the last few years there have been some advancements that are simply better options, in most cases.

If you're also running new plumbing, a manifold / small diameter pex system generally saves almost as much as the tankless would, and is cheaper.

There's also the new heat pump storage water heaters, which are about as expensive, much more efficient, and don't have the installation/maintenance and use issues tankless heaters do. As a benefit (if you're in a warm-ish climate) they also cool the air around them - slightly lowering the load on your AC.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,135
1,594
126
I don't recommend them to clients (I'm in Architecture) largely for the reasons in Squisher's article, and in the last few years there have been some advancements that are simply better options, in most cases.

If you're also running new plumbing, a manifold / small diameter pex system generally saves almost as much as the tankless would, and is cheaper.

There's also the new heat pump storage water heaters, which are about as expensive, much more efficient, and don't have the installation/maintenance and use issues tankless heaters do. As a benefit (if you're in a warm-ish climate) they also cool the air around them - slightly lowering the load on your AC.

You make some good points. I believe ALL the utilities should be tailored to the needs/use and location of the user. Unfortunately, basic plumbing hasn't changed much in centuries. Now, there are many more technologies but, very little in the way of education for those not in the industry like yourself. It's difficult merely to determine all the applicable 'solutions' let alone make comparisons. Many builders, distributors and home improvement businesses have a vested interest in whatever tech they're pushing.
 

iGas

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2009
6,240
1
0
Going to replace my waterheater, currently a 75gallon tank unit. I am considering a

http://www.rheem.com/product.aspx?id=5AE02BB6-A8A9-49DE-8F3A-08DA596EB980

for a family of 6, 6 bedroom, 5 1/2 bath home. Anyone own a tankless waterheater and have good or bad things to say about the newer models?

9.5 gal./min at 35° F rise max., 8.4 gal./min. at 45° F rise

If it is a new house:

each shower head flow rate is 2.5 GPM
each tub is 4 GPM
each bathroom sink is 2.2 GPM
each kitchen faucet is 2.2 GPM
Cloth washer is 4 GPM
Dishwasher 1.5 GPM

Above are the max flow rate using 1992 code, older house may consume up to 2X the above calculation due to no flow restriction.

It is not going to cut it for a family of 6 people with 5 1/2 bath even at the generous 9.5 Gal/min. However, 2 of the same size tank less water heater may do it.

[add]
Another way to go is install extreme low flow restriction devices on everything in the house so that 1 tank less heater can supply multiple fixtures at once.
 
Last edited:

iGas

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2009
6,240
1
0
I don't recommend them to clients (I'm in Architecture) largely for the reasons in Squisher's article, and in the last few years there have been some advancements that are simply better options, in most cases.

If you're also running new plumbing, a manifold / small diameter pex system generally saves almost as much as the tankless would, and is cheaper.

There's also the new heat pump storage water heaters, which are about as expensive, much more efficient, and don't have the installation/maintenance and use issues tankless heaters do. As a benefit (if you're in a warm-ish climate) they also cool the air around them - slightly lowering the load on your AC.
What do you mean by heat pump storage water heaters?

If you mean geothermal heat pump with water source, then there is a possibility.

1-2 water storage tanks for heating with heat exchangers in the tanks to boost the domestic/potable water tank.

Another method is having 3 way valves or 4 way valve to switch load between tanks.

I have heard of air to water heat pump, but those aren't as efficient as air to air, water to water, and water to air.
 
Last edited:

Murloc

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2008
5,382
65
91
This is the first time I hear about them.

I agree that they might be a better replacement than a small tanked water heater that goes in the bathroom, but for a house with a centralized water heating system, not so much.

In my house I just have one huge tank linked to solar panels for heating water, with a secondary way to heat the water (useful in winter) which is using the central heating system's heatpumps.

Never had a problem, various appliances and long showers at the same time.
 

Tsaico

Platinum Member
Oct 21, 2000
2,669
0
0
It seems to be a debate. I have a client who handles commercial plumbing and they have been installing industrial tank-less for the last few years in restaurants, and so far, they are a huge business. No boiler is needed so that saves a ton right there. Also, on busy nights, there isn't the problem of running out of hot water. Maintenance wise, they tell me it is about the same. Re-plumbing isn't too big an issue, since usually they plumb from there the old tank is to the new location near it, so generally about or less than 5 feet of pipe is needed. And as far as costs, which was the main argument of the article posted, is flawed based on fuel trends, which right now is close to 2008 levels, but it is still higher, and can always go up and most likely will. Making these more cost effective.

Though the heat pump looks to be a good competitor. I think it will be down to these two techs, though right now, it seems there is only electric heat pumps, which for me my electric is much higher than LPG or NG, so it makes more sense to stay with gas powered heating for my water. That might change, but right now, it is so far apart it will be a while.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
106
Anyone loaded and has tried out a solar heat panel tank and tankless heater combo?

Not sure if you can use it for potable water. Think it's used for radiant heating mostly.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |