Tankless waterheaters

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highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,563
5,966
136
Anyone loaded and has tried out a solar heat panel tank and tankless heater combo?
A few years ago, asked the bro (the plumber) about the combo because he's installed both. He said there was a warranty issue putting hot water into the on demand. Something about a faster corrosion/deterioration of the internal heating fins. And that's the limit of my knowledge on that.

Went with a conventional electric. Cost of the on demand/solar install and the solar absorber would have had to be in the front of the house.
 

paperfist

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2000
6,517
280
126
www.the-teh.com
I have one, no problems here. One big plus is you can shower all day long.

Is that even possible? You're bill would be through the roof for one, for another the system would never be able to keep up with all day long heating unless you have some massive made for a mansion unit

I have a boiler and have been thinking about an unlimited hot water unit to run off it. I see too many 'gotchas' with tankless systems.
 

the DRIZZLE

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2007
2,956
1
81
I hear tankless sytems just take 30+ seconds to heat the element up and get the lines primed for hot water. Some folks will have a small loop installed in the line that recirculates hot water and pumps to speed the hot water down from the heater to the faucets.

It may cost a few hundred more up front, but you may want to consider those kinds of upgrades to your system to make it less noticible.

What's the point of going tankless then? Between the pumping energy and the increased heat losses from keeping the loop hot you are going to eat up any efficiency gains.
 

iGas

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2009
6,240
1
0
Is that even possible? You're bill would be through the roof for one, for another the system would never be able to keep up with all day long heating unless you have some massive made for a mansion unit

I have a boiler and have been thinking about an unlimited hot water unit to run off it. I see too many 'gotchas' with tankless systems.
Boiler temperature is too high for potable water usage (plumbing code also indicated 140F).

Boiler water temperature is 160-180F max at 200F, pressure at 12-15 psi and max at 30 psi.

That mean you will need to install a pump to bring up the pressure that is greater than the domestic side, and an expansion tank with DCVA (double check valve assembly backflow preventer), as well as a mixing valve.

Or, have a double jacked heat ex-changer and a circ pump.

In short it is do able, but there is installation cost that associated with it.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
Going to replace my waterheater, currently a 75gallon tank unit. I am considering a

http://www.rheem.com/product.aspx?id=5AE02BB6-A8A9-49DE-8F3A-08DA596EB980

for a family of 6, 6 bedroom, 5 1/2 bath home. Anyone own a tankless waterheater and have good or bad things to say about the newer models?
Tankless heaters suck because electricity is exactly 34098234x as expensive as natural gas (where I live).

In terms of usefullness, tankless heaters are great. Anyone I've met who had one said they were the bee's knees.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
The problems that people have with tanked heaters (running out of hot water, and long recharge times) are due to incorrectly specified tanks. The vast majority that I've seen installed are too small, or have excessively long reheat times. The other possible issue is that the tanks have not been maintained correctly and are full of limescale deposits. A lot of people don't realise, but in hard water areas a water softener is not a luxury. It is essential for the correct operation of any water heating equipment - tankless heaters are particularly sensitive to limescale buildup. (In some areas, notably in Europe, it is actually a code requirement that water heaters operate only on soft [or softened] water).
A problem I've seen a few times is how people suck at setting the temperature, and this makes a huge difference. If someone is a retard, they set the max temperature to something safe like 50C. That also means your shower water is about 50% hot water and 50% cold water, so you run out almost immediately. In my parents house, that bitch was always cranked to the max. If you ran straight hot water, it was almost boiling hot. Instead of 50/50 mixing, your shower is more like 10% hot water and 90% cold water. It's endless. I could shower for 30 minutes and it would still be hot enough to burn me. We could run the dish washer and shower at the same time without a problem.

The boiler in my office is set to the max just like my parents water heat was. I haven't seen the boiler, but the water coming out of the taps is hot enough to cook noodles.
 

Mark R

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
8,513
14
81
A problem I've seen a few times is how people suck at setting the temperature, and this makes a huge difference. If someone is a retard, they set the max temperature to something safe like 50C. That also means your shower water is about 50% hot water and 50% cold water, so you run out almost immediately. In my parents house, that bitch was always cranked to the max. If you ran straight hot water, it was almost boiling hot. Instead of 50/50 mixing, your shower is more like 10% hot water and 90% cold water. It's endless. I could shower for 30 minutes and it would still be hot enough to burn me. We could run the dish washer and shower at the same time without a problem.

50 C is actually too low for hot water, as it is insufficient to kill bacteria - in particular Legionella bacteria which can cause a life-threatening pneumonia (Legionnaire's disease) if water spray is inhaled.

To avoid Legionella contamination of hot water tanks, a minimum temperature of 60 C is recommended.

The idea of keeping the hot water storage temperature low to prevent scalding is fine - but it is the wrong solution to the problem. The correct solution to the problem is to install thermostatic temperature limiting mixers on the hot-water faucets/showers. These will blend hot and cold water, at the faucet, to prevent the temperature exceeding a preset safe level (e.g. 43 C).
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
The idea of keeping the hot water storage temperature low to prevent scalding is fine - but it is the wrong solution to the problem. The correct solution to the problem is to install thermostatic temperature limiting mixers on the hot-water faucets/showers. These will blend hot and cold water, at the faucet, to prevent the temperature exceeding a preset safe level (e.g. 43 C).
I didn't know such a thing existed, but it sound interesting. Thanks for the info!
 

paperfist

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2000
6,517
280
126
www.the-teh.com
Boiler temperature is too high for potable water usage (plumbing code also indicated 140F).

Boiler water temperature is 160-180F max at 200F, pressure at 12-15 psi and max at 30 psi.

That mean you will need to install a pump to bring up the pressure that is greater than the domestic side, and an expansion tank with DCVA (double check valve assembly backflow preventer), as well as a mixing valve.

Or, have a double jacked heat ex-changer and a circ pump.

In short it is do able, but there is installation cost that associated with it.

Yeah I was going to run it as a separate zone with the heat ex-changer. My current hot water heater is leaking and was trying to compare the cost of a replacement high efficient one with one I can run off the boiler. Trouble is from what I've read even the newer hot water heaters aren't worth the efficiency due to their high costs.
 

iGas

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2009
6,240
1
0
Yeah I was going to run it as a separate zone with the heat ex-changer. My current hot water heater is leaking and was trying to compare the cost of a replacement high efficient one with one I can run off the boiler. Trouble is from what I've read even the newer hot water heaters aren't worth the efficiency due to their high costs.

Absolutely true.

Hence, it is best to buy the cheapest HWT heater that you can get and regularly replace the anode as well as flush the tank bottom.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
We've specified tankless water heaters on some jobs for a decade or so. There are issues, but overall they are okay. Whether gas or electric the tankless must be sized much larger because it must heat water so much more quickly, so electrically you'll definitely need a new circuit. If you have an old house, or if the water heater is located remotely from the panel with the wiring running through finished and inaccessible space, or if it's an old house with limited electrical capacity, this may be a problem. This will also be an issue if you have a generator, as it takes a much larger generator to run a tankless water heater than a conventional storage model which heats water much more slowly. You may also need a larger line for gas models, although usually not.

Sizing is essential; you need to know not only your total flow requirements, but also your minimum ground water temperature. Part of sizing is also what you are willing to accept; do you have to have sufficient capacity to run the dishwasher or washer as well as the shower? How hot is hot enough for you? Are you willing to accept less hot water volume? You also need to know if your dishwasher and washer will handle cooler water before you make those decisions; newer ones with electronic timers can accept any temperature of water, but with older models with mechanical timers accepting cooler warm water may not be an option as they are designed assuming a minimum hot water temperature and have only a mechanically controlled time to heat it to the required temperature.

You also need to know if you are on well water or treated municipal water. The latter almost always has chlorine or chloramine added, to kill bacteria and amoebae*. But with well water (or otherwise untreated water) you may well be taking in bacteria or amoebae that can potentially kill you. In that case, you absolutely need to heat your water to a very high temperature, as breathing this things is, as Mark R said, potentially fatal. In that case, you have to have mixing valves to make your house child-safe. 60 C hot water and mixing valves are always the best design - they aren't common on houses in many areas because of the cost - but it's essential for well water. But even the best municipal water can sometimes be low on chlorine/chloramine, especially reservoir supplies during hot, dry summers.

You may or may not notice much savings over a newer storage tank water heater. Newer storage tank water heaters are much better insulated than are older models. If you use a lot of hot water, your tankless water heater won't pay off very quickly. If you use a lot of hot water and are currently limited by the hot water running out, your tankless water heater may not ever pay off, especially since you'll tend to use more hot water than before. If you use little hot water, your tankless water heater may pay off fairly quickly because you aren't heating water and then keeping it heated for hours before using it. A new storage tank water heater on a timer might then be an even more practical choice; the trade-off is its lower initial cost versus the tankless water heater's ability to respond instantly to a change in schedule. (If you normally use no hot water before seven AM and then one day get up at three, a timer-controlled storage tank water heater may have only luke-warm water; a tankless water heater will have its normal unlimited hot water.)

*Really, all protozoans.
 
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