Umm, the point is that Bush lied to the public when he said that no one anticipated a breach in the levees... Lieing is something this administration does on a regular basis.
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Why is the government responsible for any response in the first place? We're simply paying taxes to FEMA as an insurance policy with an insane overhead. Couldn't this money go much better towards the poor people who suffered the worst? Had they had this money up front, they most surely could have afforded the evacuation. Hell, they could each have their own car and a tank full of gas for the amount of money that we threw at the problem.
Tape: Bush, Chertoff Warned Before Katrina
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Just listened to parts of the tape on the network news.
And comparing it to Bush's responce------Yep GWB is praying to the almighty to prevent loss of life---WHEN THAT FAILED NOTHING GWB COULD DO. Guess it shows us Americans that we really should have elected Pat Robertson. And where the almighty is concerned GWB just can't cut it.
Bush is told a cat 5 hurricaine could wreck the levies----when Katrina was only a cat 3 guess IT LEAVES HIM OFF THE HOOK. GWB WAS NOT PROPERLY WARNED that a mere cat 3 could do it also.---And thats an excuse???
All in all it would be really funny and make great comedy---were it not for the fact we Americans have to depend on this guy to make government work.
But on a brighter side for your doing a hecka of job Brownie, you ain't the only incompetent in the GWB admimistration. In fact you fit quite well.------I'm praying for you.
Originally posted by: TylerP
He had it in writting, but he didn't submit it. That is in the commisions report.
And as for the arrivel....the 5 days is not what it took the first responders to make it there. The commission reported the 5 days in context to armed military.
Originally posted by: johnnobts
by the way, i voted for nagin prior to moving out of new orleans. my biggest voting faux pas ever.
First, I don't view FEMA as an entitlement program. I view it as a government-run insurance company. Like almost every government-run organization, it has a very large overhead and is much less quick to respond than an equivalent private organization. I'm simply stating that the funds could be better spent by enabling everyone to evacuate rather than trying to clean up after the mess - an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure sort of thing. And yes, the city would have still been ruined, but that's another issue not relating to FEMA. The point is that the loss of life could have been minimized by taking a different approach to the problem. All in all, the rest of your post agrees with what I'm saying here, unless I'm reading it wrong.Originally posted by: DealMonkey
That's precisely the sort of thinking that led to FEMA staff and funding being cut as the Bush administration viewed FEMA much like you do -- an entitlement program. And the same for the Army Corp plans to reinforce the levies -- cut. Funding that was cut to help pay for war in Iraq.
Originally posted by: DonVito
Originally posted by: TylerP
They were ready. Near every report says they were. The governor of LA (that is a state abriviation) and the gov of NO (that is a city abriviation) are the ones that didn't make the call.
Just take a look at the Ferderal Laws and LA state laws that are in place for situations like this.
Also, this same info was made available to LA officials.
Just saying.
Actually I believe Governor Bianco asked in writing for a designation of a federal disaster area before the storm hit.
If the federal assets were ready, why did it take 5 days for them to arrive?
For my part, I certainly understand that Louisiana of all places is hardly a paragon of excellent (or even competent) governance, but it's equally clear to me the Feds dropped the ball on Katrina, big-time.
Originally posted by: Siddhartha
Edit: Wow, some people are still trying to direct attention away from GWB by bringing up Clinton!
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
First, I don't view FEMA as an entitlement program. I view it as a government-run insurance company. Like almost every government-run organization, it has a very large overhead and is much less quick to respond than an equivalent private organization. I'm simply stating that the funds could be better spent by enabling everyone to evacuate rather than trying to clean up after the mess - an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure sort of thing. And yes, the city would have still been ruined, but that's another issue not relating to FEMA. The point is that the loss of life could have been minimized by taking a different approach to the problem. All in all, the rest of your post agrees with what I'm saying here, unless I'm reading it wrong.Originally posted by: DealMonkey
That's precisely the sort of thinking that led to FEMA staff and funding being cut as the Bush administration viewed FEMA much like you do -- an entitlement program. And the same for the Army Corp plans to reinforce the levies -- cut. Funding that was cut to help pay for war in Iraq.
Bottom line: the government does many things. Some things it does fairly well. However, since there is no accountability at any level and no drive for profit, the efficiency approaches zero. Private companies are driven by profitability and hold people accountable accordingly.
Originally posted by: DonVito
Actually I believe Governor Bianco asked in writing for a designation of a federal disaster area before the storm hit.Originally posted by: TylerP
They were ready. Near every report says they were. The governor of LA (that is a state abriviation) and the gov of NO (that is a city abriviation) are the ones that didn't make the call.
Just take a look at the Ferderal Laws and LA state laws that are in place for situations like this.
Also, this same info was made available to LA officials.
Just saying.
If the federal assets were ready, why did it take 5 days for them to arrive?
For my part, I certainly understand that Louisiana of all places is hardly a paragon of excellent (or even competent) governance, but it's equally clear to me the Feds dropped the ball on Katrina, big-time.
Sat. before the storm, 4,000 LA National Guardsmen are called up (but the high-water vehicles, generators, etc. are out of the country.) They pre-positioned outside the city.
Gov. Blanco says the storm will be so big that state and local gov?t won?t be able to handle it. She asked Pres. Bush to declare a state of emergency. Later that day, he does.
Originally posted by: TylerP
Originally posted by: Hacp
Originally posted by: TylerP
He had it in writting, but he didn't submit it. That is in the commisions report.
And as for the arrivel....the 5 days is not what it took the first responders to make it there. The commission reported the 5 days in context to armed military.
Am I missing something? Blanco=female? Shows how much of the situation you understand. You= lost all credibility.
I was thinking of the gov of NO, as they both had it. And I am not good with names, sorry.
Think what you will of me...but at least go read the facts for yourself instead of relying on forum posts. That is just intellectually stunted.
Originally posted by: DonVito
This tape is pretty interesting stuff. Brownie actually comes off pretty well - he clearly took the hurricane very seriously, and it appears President Bush was given ample warning about the potential seriousness of Katrina, to include the possibility of a breach of the levees. All this is water under the bridge (or, in this instance, over the levee), but one hopes they'll do better next time if we experience another catastrophic event under the Bush administration.
Originally posted by: conjur
So, you want to argue what the definition of "is" is?
:roll:
Sorry if you can't understand what happened to the levees.Originally posted by: Queasy
Sorry if you can't understand the difference between a breach and a topping of the levees.Originally posted by: conjur
So, you want to argue what the definition of "is" is?
:roll:
With computer modeling of hurricanes and storm surges, disaster experts have developed a detailed picture of how a storm could push Lake Pontchartrain over the levees and into the city.
"The worst case is a hurricane moving in from due south of the city," said Suhayda, who has developed a computer simulation of the flooding from such a storm. On that track, winds on the outer edges of a huge storm system would be pushing water in Breton Sound and west of the Chandeleur Islands into the St. Bernard marshes and then Lake Pontchartrain for two days before landfall.
"Water is literally pumped into Lake Pontchartrain," Suhayda said. "It will try to flow through any gaps, and that means the Inner Harbor Navigation Canal (which is connected to Breton Sound by the Mississippi River-Gulf Outlet) and the Chef Menteur and the Rigolets passes.
"So now the lake is 5 to 8 feet higher than normal, and we're talking about a lake that's only 15 or 20 feet deep, so you're adding a third to a half as much water to the lake," Suhayda said. As the eye of the hurricane moves north, next to New Orleans but just to the east, the winds over the lake switch around to come from the north.
"As the eye impacts the Mississippi coastline, the winds are now blowing south across the lake, maybe at 50, 80, 100 mph, and all that water starts to move south," he said. "It's moving like a big army advancing toward the lake's hurricane-protection system. And then the winds themselves are generating waves, 5 to 10 feet high, on top of all that water. They'll be breaking and crashing along the sea wall."
Soon waves will start breaking over the levee.
"All of a sudden you'll start seeing flowing water. It'll look like a weir, water just pouring over the top," Suhayda said. The water will flood the lakefront, filling up low-lying areas first, and continue its march south toward the river. There would be no stopping or slowing it; pumping systems would be overwhelmed and submerged in a matter of hours.
"Another scenario is that some part of the levee would fail," Suhayda said. "It's not something that's expected. But erosion occurs, and as levees broke, the break will get wider and wider. The water will flow through the city and stop only when it reaches the next higher thing. The most continuous barrier is the south levee, along the river. That's 25 feet high, so you'll see the water pile up on the river levee."
A large section of the vital 17th Street Canal levee, where it connects to the brand new "hurricane proof" Old Hammond Highway bridge, gave way late Monday morning in Bucktown after Katrina's fiercest winds were well north. The breach sent a churning sea of water from Lake Pontchartrain coursing across Lakeview and into Mid-City, Carrollton, Gentilly, City Park and neighborhoods farther south and east.
No, I well understood that point. However, I'm pointing out how stupid that point is, as this should not even be a possibility, since the government shouldn't have their nose in this to begin with.Originally posted by: shadow9d9
You are like a broken record. I pointed out that you missed the whole point of the thread and you just ignored it and repeated yourself again! Bush lied to the public about his awareness. A videotape proves this. That is what this thread is about. Get a clue.
Originally posted by: conjur
Sorry if you can't understand what happened to the levees.Originally posted by: Queasy
Sorry if you can't understand the difference between a breach and a topping of the levees.Originally posted by: conjur
So, you want to argue what the definition of "is" is?
:roll:
One of the valleys here in Lake Pontchartrain, we've got on our forecast track, if it maintains its intensity: about 12 1/2 feet of storm surge in the lake. The big question is going to be: will that top some of the levies? And the currrent track and the forecast we have now suggests there will be minimal flooding in the city of New Orleans itself, but we're -- we've always said that the storm surge model is only accurate within 20 percent.
If that track were to deviate just a little bit to the west, it would -- it makes all the difference in the world. I do expect that there will be some of the levies over top even out here in the western portions where the airport is. We've got valleys that can't overtop some of the levies.
The problem we're going to have here -- remember, the winds go counterclockwise around the center of the hurricane. So if the really strong winds clip Lake Pontchartrain, that's going to pile some of that water from Lake Pontchartrain over on the south side of the lake. I don't think any model can tell you with any confidence right now whether the levies will be topped or not, but that's obviously a very, very grave concern.