Tape: Bush, Chertoff Warned Before Katrina

[conjur]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: shadow9d9
You are like a broken record. I pointed out that you missed the whole point of the thread and you just ignored it and repeated yourself again! Bush lied to the public about his awareness. A videotape proves this. That is what this thread is about. Get a clue.

No, I well understood that point. However, I'm pointing out how stupid that point is, as this should not even be a possibility, since the government shouldn't have their nose in this to begin with.

Who's supposed to help out then? No one?

What a compassionate conservative. :roll:

 

[RightIsWrong]

My "favorite" part:

Bush didn't ask a single question during the final briefing before Katrina struck on Aug. 29,

I guess "Met Pet Goat" is just as engrossing the second time around. :roll:

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I really thought it was Hop on Pop. He needed help with My Pet Goat, although he stayed mostly in the lines when coloring. :laugh:

 

[imported_Condor]

Originally posted by: DonVito
From Yahoo!-AP:

WASHINGTON - In dramatic and sometimes agonizing terms, federal disaster officials warned President Bush and his homeland security chief before Hurricane Katrina struck that the storm could breach levees, put lives at risk in New Orleans' Superdome and overwhelm rescuers, according to confidential video footage.

Bush didn't ask a single question during the final briefing before Katrina struck on Aug. 29, but he assured soon-to-be-battered state officials: "We are fully prepared."

. . .

This tape is pretty interesting stuff. Brownie actually comes off pretty well - he clearly took the hurricane very seriously, and it appears President Bush was given ample warning about the potential seriousness of Katrina, to include the possibility of a breach of the levees. All this is water under the bridge (or, in this instance, over the levee), but one hopes they'll do better next time if we experience another catastrophic event under the Bush administration.

Why don't you go after some real answers. Like:

Who authorized the building ot the killer levees?
Why were the killer levees built in the first place?
Who profitted from the removal of the older berme levees?
Why was taxpayer money used to build levees that were not as good as the ones they replaced?
New Orleans did pretty well during the storm and the disaster was caused by the collapse of the jersey wall levees that were brand new. It was thought that the new levee failed due to being hit by a barge that was adrift in the storm. The older levees would have withstood the impact of the barge and damage would have been minimal.

And last, but not least: Quit trying to deflect a corrupt Democratic local governments failure to the Bush administration!

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: shadow9d9
You are like a broken record. I pointed out that you missed the whole point of the thread and you just ignored it and repeated yourself again! Bush lied to the public about his awareness. A videotape proves this. That is what this thread is about. Get a clue.

No, I well understood that point. However, I'm pointing out how stupid that point is, as this should not even be a possibility, since the government shouldn't have their nose in this to begin with.

You keep going back to something irrelevant. BUSH OUTRIGHT LIED TO THE PUBLIC... THAT IS THE PROBLEM. The guy is not honest with the people, and he is supposed to be working for the people. It has nothing to do with anything more than that.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Yea I keep forgetting how squeeky clean the crony pack are. :laugh:

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: conjur
So, you want to argue what the definition of "is" is?


:roll:

Sorry if you can't understand the difference between a breach and a topping of the levees.

Sorry if you can't understand what happened to the levees.

Actually I do. Everyone was worried about water coming over the top of the levees and flooding New Orleans. What actually happened was that the water came over the top washed away the soil bracing the levees and then the levees broke open allowing waaaaaay more water to enter New Orleans from Lake Pontchartrain.

Let's go back and look at Page 5 of the transcript of the August 28th teleconference. Here is what the director of the national hurricane center said:

One of the valleys here in Lake Pontchartrain, we've got on our forecast track, if it maintains its intensity: about 12 1/2 feet of storm surge in the lake. The big question is going to be: will that top some of the levies? And the currrent track and the forecast we have now suggests there will be minimal flooding in the city of New Orleans itself, but we're -- we've always said that the storm surge model is only accurate within 20 percent.

If that track were to deviate just a little bit to the west, it would -- it makes all the difference in the world. I do expect that there will be some of the levies over top even out here in the western portions where the airport is. We've got valleys that can't overtop some of the levies.

The problem we're going to have here -- remember, the winds go counterclockwise around the center of the hurricane. So if the really strong winds clip Lake Pontchartrain, that's going to pile some of that water from Lake Pontchartrain over on the south side of the lake. I don't think any model can tell you with any confidence right now whether the levies will be topped or not, but that's obviously a very, very grave concern.

Did he once mention the levees failing? Nope. He only mentioned water coming over the top of the levees with minimal flooding. BIG difference between what he said and Bush saying that nobody expected a breach in the levees.

This will matter little to the reflexive Bush haters though.

And what does water overtopping the levees do, pray tell?


Jesus Christ you're one dense apologist.


Here, read this:
http://hsgac.senate.gov/_files/110205Seed.pdf

Testimony of
Raymond B. Seed, Ph.D.
Professor of Civil and Environmental Engineering
University of California at Berkeley
On behalf of the
NSF-Sponsored Levee Investigation Team
Before the Committee on Homeland Security and Government Affairs
U.S. Senate
November 2, 2005


II. Why Did the Levees and Floodwalls Fail?
This is a map of the central New Orleans region, prepared initially by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and then modified to reflect additional findings of our investigation teams. It shows the locations of many of the levee breaches that occurred, and serves as a good base map for our discussions today. Not shown on this map are the additional flood protection levee systems that extend down the lower reaches on the Mississippi River, providing a narrow additional protected corridor down to the Gulf.

The storm surges produced by Hurricane Katrina resulted in numerous breaches, and consequent flooding of approximately 75 percent of the metropolitan areas of New Orleans. Most of the levee and floodwall failures were caused by overtopping, as the storm surge rose over the tops of the levees and their floodwalls and produced erosion that subsequently led to failures and breaches.

Overtopping was most severe at the east end of the flood protection system, as the waters of Lake Borgne were driven west producing a storm surge on the order of 18 to 25 feet that massively overtopped levees immediately to the west of this lake. This photo shows one piece of a six mile section of levees at the northeast corner of the MRGO channel that were massively overtopped and eroded by this storm surge, which then sent floodwaters racing towards St. Bernard Parish. There is virtually nothing left of these levees along some parts of this stretch.

A very severe storm surge also occurred farther to the south, along the lower reaches of the Mississippi River, and significant overtopping produced additional breaches in this region as well. This photo shows homes that were carried across the narrow protected corridor in southern Plaquemines Parish by a breach on the west levee, and then thrown astride the crest of the Mississippi Riverfront levee.

Overtopping was lesser in magnitude along the Inner Harbor Navigation Channel and along the western portion of the MRGO channel, but the consequences of this overtopping were again severe. This overtopping again produced erosion and caused numerous additional levee failures. This photo shows the well known breach at the west end of the Ninth Ward. We spent some time figuring out the answer to the chicken and the egg question, and it is our preliminary opinion that the infamous large barge was drawn in through a breach that was already open.

Most of the failures in this central New Orleans area were the result of overtopping, and one of the common failure modes was simply water cascading over concrete floodwalls and then carving sharply etched trenches at the back sides of these walls. This reduced the lateral support at the back sides of the walls, and left them vulnerable to the high water forces on their outboard faces.

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: conjur
So, you want to argue what the definition of "is" is?


:roll:

Sorry if you can't understand the difference between a breach and a topping of the levees.

Let me guess; A breach leads to Flooding.

A Topping leads to....Flooding.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
That's precisely the sort of thinking that led to FEMA staff and funding being cut as the Bush administration viewed FEMA much like you do -- an entitlement program. And the same for the Army Corp plans to reinforce the levies -- cut. Funding that was cut to help pay for war in Iraq.

First, I don't view FEMA as an entitlement program. I view it as a government-run insurance company. Like almost every government-run organization, it has a very large overhead and is much less quick to respond than an equivalent private organization. I'm simply stating that the funds could be better spent by enabling everyone to evacuate rather than trying to clean up after the mess - an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure sort of thing. And yes, the city would have still been ruined, but that's another issue not relating to FEMA. The point is that the loss of life could have been minimized by taking a different approach to the problem. All in all, the rest of your post agrees with what I'm saying here, unless I'm reading it wrong.

Bottom line: the government does many things. Some things it does fairly well. However, since there is no accountability at any level and no drive for profit, the efficiency approaches zero. Private companies are driven by profitability and hold people accountable accordingly.

Fine, then let's privatize FEMA so long as it costs less and is more efficient at their job. Just don't give the no-bid contract to Halliburton But seriously, wishing FEMA's role in disaster prevention, mitigation and relief was nil is not going to change the reality. Which is that the Administration is woefully unprepared for just about everything it gets involved with. 9/11, occupying Iraq, the Katrina response, and on and on. And then when confronted with their crappy performance, they lie and obfuscate and lie some more.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: conjur
So, you want to argue what the definition of "is" is?


:roll:

Sorry if you can't understand the difference between a breach and a topping of the levees.

Let me guess; A breach leads to Flooding.

A Topping leads to....Flooding.

DING! DING! DING! Frankie we have a winner... Let's tell the kid what he's won...
You get to stay in the white house as a guest of dubya, but not only that, you will be appointed to a position you are grossly underqualified for.
But wait, there's more. Once you've failed miserably at that job, you will get "A heckava job" T-shirt from the dub himself, as well as a medal of freedom.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: conjur
So, you want to argue what the definition of "is" is?


:roll:

Sorry if you can't understand the difference between a breach and a topping of the levees.

Sorry if you can't understand what happened to the levees.

Actually I do. Everyone was worried about water coming over the top of the levees and flooding New Orleans. What actually happened was that the water came over the top washed away the soil bracing the levees and then the levees broke open allowing waaaaaay more water to enter New Orleans from Lake Pontchartrain.

Let's go back and look at Page 5 of the transcript of the August 28th teleconference. Here is what the director of the national hurricane center said:

One of the valleys here in Lake Pontchartrain, we've got on our forecast track, if it maintains its intensity: about 12 1/2 feet of storm surge in the lake. The big question is going to be: will that top some of the levies? And the currrent track and the forecast we have now suggests there will be minimal flooding in the city of New Orleans itself, but we're -- we've always said that the storm surge model is only accurate within 20 percent.

If that track were to deviate just a little bit to the west, it would -- it makes all the difference in the world. I do expect that there will be some of the levies over top even out here in the western portions where the airport is. We've got valleys that can't overtop some of the levies.

The problem we're going to have here -- remember, the winds go counterclockwise around the center of the hurricane. So if the really strong winds clip Lake Pontchartrain, that's going to pile some of that water from Lake Pontchartrain over on the south side of the lake. I don't think any model can tell you with any confidence right now whether the levies will be topped or not, but that's obviously a very, very grave concern.

Did he once mention the levees failing? Nope. He only mentioned water coming over the top of the levees with minimal flooding. BIG difference between what he said and Bush saying that nobody expected a breach in the levees.

This will matter little to the reflexive Bush haters though.

And what does water overtopping the levees do, pray tell?


Jesus Christ you're one dense apologist.

Jesus Christ you're hatred of Bush removes all rational thought. If you go back and look at my OP in this thread I said that the response to Katrina was fumbled from the local level to the federal level. I'm not excusing or apologizing for anyone. I am, however, pointing out an obvious hack job.

Again, breaching was not mentioned to Bush. Overtopping "with minimal flooding" was mentioned directly to Bush from the Director of the National Hurricane Center. If you can find somewhere where it was mentioned to Bush that the levees were going to fail and break open, more power to you and then I will say that Bush lied.

If you go back and read the AP story, Bush was worried about levees breaking after the first levee breaks were reported. Not before. Prior to the hurricane, everyone from the national media, to the hurricane center, to government officials were worried about flooding coming from water rushing over the levees. Nobody expected the levees to break open and fail. Some of the levees were not even topped. They simply failed because they couldn't withstand the storm surge.

The AP story does nothing to provide any new information. We've all been around this carousel many times before.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: conjur
So, you want to argue what the definition of "is" is?


:roll:

Sorry if you can't understand the difference between a breach and a topping of the levees.

Let me guess; A breach leads to Flooding.

A Topping leads to....Flooding.

A breach leads to massive flooding. The Lake behind New Orleans simply emptied itself into NO until its water level was the same as the water level in NO.

A topping will lead to flooding but not on such a massive scale.

All you have to do is look at pictures of New Orleans after Katrina passed and before the levees broke to see the difference. There was some flooding but nothing that NO couldn't recover from in a week or two. When the levees broke open, all bets were off.

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: conjur
So, you want to argue what the definition of "is" is?


:roll:

Sorry if you can't understand the difference between a breach and a topping of the levees.

Let me guess; A breach leads to Flooding.

A Topping leads to....Flooding.

A breach leads to massive flooding. The Lake behind New Orleans simply emptied itself into NO until its water level was the same as the water level in NO.

A topping will lead to flooding but not on such a massive scale.

All you have to do is look at pictures of New Orleans after Katrina passed and before the levees broke to see the difference. There was some flooding but nothing that NO couldn't recover from in a week or two. When the levees broke open, all bets were off.

So the topping led to the breaching.


Same result.


How does this excuse FEMA's lack of response?

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: conjur
So, you want to argue what the definition of "is" is?


:roll:

Sorry if you can't understand the difference between a breach and a topping of the levees.

Let me guess; A breach leads to Flooding.

A Topping leads to....Flooding.

A breach leads to massive flooding. The Lake behind New Orleans simply emptied itself into NO until its water level was the same as the water level in NO.

A topping will lead to flooding but not on such a massive scale.

All you have to do is look at pictures of New Orleans after Katrina passed and before the levees broke to see the difference. There was some flooding but nothing that NO couldn't recover from in a week or two. When the levees broke open, all bets were off.

So the topping led to the breaching.


Same result.


How does this excuse FEMA's lack of response?

Where was I excusing FEMA's response?

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: conjur
So, you want to argue what the definition of "is" is?


:roll:

Sorry if you can't understand the difference between a breach and a topping of the levees.

Let me guess; A breach leads to Flooding.

A Topping leads to....Flooding.

A breach leads to massive flooding. The Lake behind New Orleans simply emptied itself into NO until its water level was the same as the water level in NO.

A topping will lead to flooding but not on such a massive scale.

All you have to do is look at pictures of New Orleans after Katrina passed and before the levees broke to see the difference. There was some flooding but nothing that NO couldn't recover from in a week or two. When the levees broke open, all bets were off.

So the topping led to the breaching.


Same result.


How does this excuse FEMA's lack of response?

Where was I excusing FEMA's response?

"Bush was not warned of a breach of the levees."



My mistake; you were excusing Bush, and he has nothing to do with FEMA's response.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: conjur
So, you want to argue what the definition of "is" is?


:roll:

Sorry if you can't understand the difference between a breach and a topping of the levees.

Let me guess; A breach leads to Flooding.

A Topping leads to....Flooding.

A breach leads to massive flooding. The Lake behind New Orleans simply emptied itself into NO until its water level was the same as the water level in NO.

A topping will lead to flooding but not on such a massive scale.

All you have to do is look at pictures of New Orleans after Katrina passed and before the levees broke to see the difference. There was some flooding but nothing that NO couldn't recover from in a week or two. When the levees broke open, all bets were off.

So the topping led to the breaching.


Same result.


How does this excuse FEMA's lack of response?

Where was I excusing FEMA's response?

"Bush was not warned of a breach of the levees."



My mistake; you were excusing Bush.

Wasn't excusing Bush either. Pointing out the difference between the facts of the transcript of the video and what the AP reported.

 

[K1052]

Two of the canals breached without overtopping the floodwalls when subjected to the greatly increased water pressure even though it was below the maximum anticipated.

They are now looking at the structures to determine if they were indeed built to specification and/or if that specification was sufficient considering area's geology.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: K1052
Two of the canals breached without overtopping the floodwalls when subjected to the greatly increased water pressure even though it was below the maximum anticipated.

They are now looking at the structures to determine if they were indeed built to specification and/or if that specification was sufficient considering area's geology.

Yup. The History Channel did one of their "engineering disaster" Modern Marvel shows on the levee breaches just a couple of nights ago. Very informative.

 

[Gand1]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: K1052
Two of the canals breached without overtopping the floodwalls when subjected to the greatly increased water pressure even though it was below the maximum anticipated.

They are now looking at the structures to determine if they were indeed built to specification and/or if that specification was sufficient considering area's geology.

Yup. The History Channel did one of their "engineering disaster" Modern Marvel shows on the levee breaches just a couple of nights ago. Very informative.

And the Discovery channel did a show on what would happen to the levees if a hurricane hit a year before the storm. How come they knew exacly what was going to happen but no one else did?????

 

[Pens1566]

7 Minutes to continue reading my pet goat. 5 days to continue clearing brush, riding bike, and playing guitar with country singer. Can we play the "Blame Game" now??????????

 

[MonkeyK]

Originally posted by: conjur
What was it the Propagandist said afterward? "No one could have anticipated the levees being breached"? Is that what it was?

:|


Remember this?

"No one could have anticipated planes being flown into buildings."

Remember *that* lie?


This administration is so criminally negligent they should all be hanged! Every last one of the fvckers.

Don't forget "Nobody knew that uranium purchase documents were a forgery"

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: Gand1

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: K1052
Two of the canals breached without overtopping the floodwalls when subjected to the greatly increased water pressure even though it was below the maximum anticipated.

They are now looking at the structures to determine if they were indeed built to specification and/or if that specification was sufficient considering area's geology.

Yup. The History Channel did one of their "engineering disaster" Modern Marvel shows on the levee breaches just a couple of nights ago. Very informative.

And the Discovery channel did a show on what would happen to the levees if a hurricane hit a year before the storm. How come they knew exacly what was going to happen but no one else did?????

Wow.. stuff like that makes me think of this
http://www.thewebfairy.com/killtown/lonegunmen.html

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Pens1566
Can we play the "Blame Game" now??????????

Why not? There's plenty of blame to go around. The most important point is, the Associated Press show Bush and key administration officials, including Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff, were briefed about Hurricane Katrina and the damage it could do before it came ashore. Then, four days after Katrina hit, Bush publically stated, "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees" in New Orleans.

There's no debate about whether FEMA's preparedness and actions were woefully inadequate, and the actual disaster and the level of suffering that continues were a natural disaster, and the geography, construction and infrastructure of New Orleans made it a city looking for one to happen.

The significance of the tapes is that they prove beyond a doubt that Bush his cronies tried to cover their political asses and their own failures by deliberately lying about when they were informed of the possiblility that the levees could go and that New Orleans would face human tragedy and property destruction to the extent that actually happened.

Yer doin' a heck of a job, Bushie! :|

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Gand1

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: K1052
Two of the canals breached without overtopping the floodwalls when subjected to the greatly increased water pressure even though it was below the maximum anticipated.

They are now looking at the structures to determine if they were indeed built to specification and/or if that specification was sufficient considering area's geology.

Yup. The History Channel did one of their "engineering disaster" Modern Marvel shows on the levee breaches just a couple of nights ago. Very informative.

And the Discovery channel did a show on what would happen to the levees if a hurricane hit a year before the storm. How come they knew exacly what was going to happen but no one else did?????

People in the local, state, and federal government had known for decades that something like this could happen. The current administration was unlucky enough to have it happen on their watch and probably did not repsond as quickly as they should have.

What wasn't anticipated was that upgraded sections of the city's flood barriers would fail so catastrophically under a scenario that should have been within their limits.

 

[NFS4]

I'd like to ask, how exactly did this video get out? Were they "leaked?"