Tape Drives

The Raven

Senior member
Oct 11, 2005
297
0
0
Hi guys, I just got a tape drive and was wondering what the dis/advantage of such a drive.
I figure that a HD back up would be just as good if not better. But then again I don't know anything about tape back up except the price lol.

Please point me to some good sites if you can. I'm not sure if the ones I googled are reliable. Thanks.
 

Oyeve

Lifer
Oct 18, 1999
21,940
838
126
Well, HDs fail, even backup one. Tape, depends on what kind, like DLT and SDLT are very reliable. I have DLT tapes over 8yrs old that still can have the data retrieved off of. I have thrown them at walls, out windows and they still were able to get data off of. Try that with a HD.
 

Seekermeister

Golden Member
Oct 3, 2006
1,971
0
0
If you want to use Windows's Backup function, a tape drive is useful. I believe that the backup function only works with either a tape drive or with a file that it creats on the HD.
 

RebateMonger

Elite Member
Dec 24, 2005
11,588
0
0
As Oyeve notes, tape media is more durable than a hard drive. But you also have the problem of tape DRIVES not lasting forever. If your tape drive fails, you'll have to replace it to be able to READ the tapes.

There are pros and cons to both tapes and hard drives. Both have their uses:

If you have lots of data and not much money, you normally choose hard drives.
If you have lots of data and a lot of money, you might choose a tape drive for the convenience and tape transportability and durability.
If you don't have a lot of data, you can take your pick.
 

RebateMonger

Elite Member
Dec 24, 2005
11,588
0
0
Originally posted by: Seekermeister
If you want to use Windows's Backup function, a tape drive is useful. I believe that the backup function only works with either a tape drive or with a file that it creats on the HD.
Windows NTBackup, in both XP and Server 2003, will work with tapes, hard drives, various USB devices, or network drives.

If you are referring to the ASR (Automated System Recovery) option in NTBackup, then, yes, there are some restrictions on recovery from a hard drive backup. The backup has to be located on a "Local" hard drive, not on a USB port nor on a network port.
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,921
14
81
Also, recall that tape drives have been increasing in capacity much more slowly than harddrives. Back in the 90's it was not fiscally viable to simply buy 2x as many hard drives.
 

The Raven

Senior member
Oct 11, 2005
297
0
0
Thank you very much! You guys rock!

However I am not sure what you mean when you say HD. lol probably because I didn't specify very well I mean't HD back up in both the external usb and the mirroring raid configurations (raid 1?).

Oh and in regards to the type of tape I'm not sure what it is, but it is from a medical testing facility and they weren't short on cash when they bought it is all I know. So I'm sure it's high quality. And I suppose I should describe the system I'm using it with: an SBS server 2003 with <10 workstations that basically use outlook, quickbooks, photoshop, firefox/ie. We produce many docs, spreadsheets, photos, and outlook data. Just fyi.
 

MerlinRML

Senior member
Sep 9, 2005
207
0
71
First things first since so many people make this mistake, RAID is not backup. RAID is redundancy for your live data (with the exception of RAID 0). If you corrupt your OS, you have a redundant corrupt OS. If you get a virus, you have a redundant virus. If you accidentally delete some data, you have a redundant deletion of your data. If you have a fire in the building, you have a redundant hard drive on fire. Yeah, I'm sure you get the picture, and I apologize for belaboring the point. But it's a good point.

For very small users and most home users, tape does not make sense. A single hard drive, CD, or DVD with a copy of the data is usually enough protection. Also home users do not tend to create as much data as business environments that have multiple people working many hours a day. Since a single hard drive is only a bit more expensive than a single tape, nevermind the cost of the tape drive, this usually makes a lot of sense to the home user and some small businesses.

In the case of a small company backup scenario.
You can backup lots more data to a tape drive than to a hard drive, for the simple reason that you can exchange tapes in the same drive. Tape is also a lot safer to transport offsite, which is a must for true backup.

For a simple comparison of capacity, assume LTO3 drives. Those tapes hold approx 400GB uncompressed and compare it to a 400GB hard drive. A tape at newegg costs approx $80, while the comparable hard drive capacity costs $180 for an internal drive.

You have $100 price difference per piece of media. For real backups, companies will keep an entire month's worth of tapes that they cycle through. This means about 30 tapes that are rotating in and out each day. Then you keep your full monthly backups, which amounts to 12 tapes. 42 tapes total. That total for a single year of savings runs about $4-5k for about 40-50 tapes, which is a net savings (even with the cost of a single tape drive which usually runs around 2-3k). Factor in a few years worth of use, and your savings continues to grow. That part is a simple numbers game.

There are a number of other factors that I have not brought into play. Government regulation and compliance can require that you keep a lot more data and for a lot longer than my simple example. Large scale backups in the range of multiple-TB capacity per night usually use a storage hierarchy of disk and tape - disk for speed, tape for cheapness and transportability. I did not factor in multiple copies of the tapes or disks, replication to a backup site for failover, archival of old data, onsite backups for critical machines, or any number of factors of which I have forgotten or am not aware. This also does not include any of the additional hardware that you might need, whether it be a tape robot, disk array, SCSI or FC HBAS, cables, FC or SCSI switches, dedicated network for backups, etc.

Both disk and tape have their place in the day-to-day backup world, it's just a matter of knowing the strengths of each and how to make the best use of both in the particular environment you are in.
 

Oyeve

Lifer
Oct 18, 1999
21,940
838
126
Originally posted by: Seekermeister
Why are tapes and tape drives so expensive?

Because they are wellmade extremely reliable devices. My DLT drive has been running for 8 years. At my job we have dozens of SDLT and other tape drives and in the ten years that I have been here we have never had one die on us (except for one that I dropped ) but the are made to last, hence the cost. Plus the back up drive is not like a music cassette drive, the drive head are pretty complicated in the way it lays down the info to the tape. The tape and tape heads work simularly like the way RAID 5 works, with stripping and whatnot. Pretty sophisticated.
 

myocardia

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2003
9,291
30
91
Originally posted by: Seekermeister
Why are tapes and tape drives so expensive?
Because everything about the computer industry only involves getting your (our) money into their pockets. The fewer people that buy anything, the higher the price per unit will be. Add to that the fact that there are ~15 different types of tape, so you have to divide the total number of tapes sold yearly by 15, and it becomes self explanatory.

All movies on DVD were $30 each, when DVD first appeared on scene. Now, Wal Mart has bins of them for $5.50 each. DVD-R's were over $2 each, in large quantities, when DVD/RW's first came out; now, they're ~$.20-25 each, in larger quantities, since everyone is buying them.
 

Seekermeister

Golden Member
Oct 3, 2006
1,971
0
0
I think that I understand the economics of the industry, but I guess what sparked my question is that when I had a Commadore64 years ago, it had a tape drive, which was very cheap. But then I don't imagine that there is any comparison to the subject at hand. However, tape technology has been around for so long, that I can't understand these prices.
 

Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
2,320
285
126
I had a good old C64 with tape drive, too, and no, there is no comparison or parallel.

Just to illustrate that even the best plans can go awry, there was a story from the 9/11 attack. One firm had an excellent data backup system with tapes stored offsite and updated often, etc. Only problem: the offsite storage location was in the other tower! Who woulda thunk it?
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,921
14
81
Originally posted by: Seekermeister
I think that I understand the economics of the industry, but I guess what sparked my question is that when I had a Commadore64 years ago, it had a tape drive, which was very cheap. But then I don't imagine that there is any comparison to the subject at hand. However, tape technology has been around for so long, that I can't understand these prices.

Low volume. The C64 tapes were cheap because everyone had cassette players back then and all the home computers used were modified cassette decks, so they had volume on their side and really low data densities. Pretty much the only thing modern DLT drives have in common is the basic concept of the physical tape spooling mechanism.
 

MerlinRML

Senior member
Sep 9, 2005
207
0
71
In my initial post, I stated that most home users do not use tape because it doesn't make sense. There are other solutions which work much better. So even the smallest tape drives these days are intended for businesses, and the companies that make the drives intend them to be used for businesses.

Note the fact that the 2 major tape formats are LTO and DLT/SDLT. LTO is made by HP, IBM, and Quantum. DLT/SDLT is made by Quantum. Whoever you actually buy the drive from, the drive is actually made by 1 of 3 companies. There are other formats out there, but they are niche markets. IBM, Sun, and Sony all have their own formats.

Given the fact that the drives are targetted for business use, and the fact that the market has consolidated, I believe that's partially the reason that the costs are still so high.
 

MichaelD

Lifer
Jan 16, 2001
31,529
3
76
Originally posted by: her34
won't the price advantage change to hdd soon as they approach 1tb?

Price advantage? Possibly. But companies that need reliable backup of multiple TB's of data also aren't worried about spending $5K or more on a 8-drive LTO tape library.

At work, we have such a machine; it replaced an old DLT 18-tape library. The thing simply flies; does about 1.7GB per MINUTE backup speed. The tapes are expensive ($80 per tape) but can fit 800GB compressed (2:1 ratio) and 400GB raw.

The nice thing about tapes is that it's very easy to take them to another building and lock them up in a safe. Offsite data storage FTW. We do this 1x/week.

Personally, I've not found the need for tape backup in my personal network at home. I have things backed up onto multiple HDs in different machines and the really important stuff is burned to DVD/CD and locked up.

But, if you're interested in tape backup, just be aware that the great majority of them have a SCSI interface which means you'll need a SCSI card and of course, a motherboard that supports it. Getting further down into the weeds; putting a 64-bit SCSI card in a 32-bit slot will mean crap backup performance to your tape drive. Not that the older ones are that fast anyway...just some thoughts.
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
33,929
1,098
126
Another great thing about tapes is that they can have barcodes put on them for easy scanning and retrieval. We do that at my job. Our office spends a tremendous amount of money on tapes, but they are so reliable and so good at what they do that I wouldn't want it any other way.

Now they just need to fix Vertias Netbackup...
 

Rubycon

Madame President
Aug 10, 2005
17,768
485
126
Originally posted by: Oyeve
Well, HDs fail, even backup one. Tape, depends on what kind, like DLT and SDLT are very reliable. I have DLT tapes over 8yrs old that still can have the data retrieved off of. I have thrown them at walls, out windows and they still were able to get data off of. Try that with a HD.

This guy did and it still worked! :Q
 

Zepper

Elite Member
May 1, 2001
18,998
0
0
I don't see the point of tape any more either. Too expensive and too slow.

.bh.
 

ForumMaster

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2005
7,797
1
0
advantages:

low $/GB
durable
extremely high capacity (IBM and Fujitsu manages to create a prototype 8TB one!

disadvantages:

slow.
inconvenient.

there you go.
the drives are expensive.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |