TB + sized HDD?

Eric62

Senior member
Apr 17, 2008
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Why are so many new huge hard drives coming out at 5400, or 5900 RPM's, instead of the traditional 7200?
What kind of performance hit does the 5400 take? If a 1 TB HDD 5400 is your primary HDD with installed OS, will it play games like Crysis at acceptable frame rates?
So many questions, so few answers - so far...
 

zagood

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
4,102
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71
If 1TB drives go over 7000RPM for a decent amount of time, they can shatter and fling shrapnel fast enough to go through your case and take out your knee.

kidding.

HDD rotational speed can make a pretty big difference, but you usually won't see it in FPS, you'll see it in program startup, level loading times, OS startup, stuff like that.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
Yeah I found this out when I recently went on a 1TB+ HDD buying spree. Ultimately I settled on the 7200rpm 1TB Hitachi drives. Those other guys are playing the yields versus reliability game...they want to sell more drives with lower requirements so they can lower their own cost-structure by purchasing lower quality drive motors and actuators, and so on.

When I buy a 7200rpm drive I want every last one of those rpm's that I pay for, not some "green intelliseek" bs that is just marketing for "if we forced this POS to spin 7200rpm all the time it would fall apart and die on you in less than a year, so here is your "green" slow HDD.
 

Ben90

Platinum Member
Jun 14, 2009
2,866
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Ive heard that HDD speeds can impact crysis's minimum frame-rate quite a bit because it loads a lot of information on the fly
Honestly i don't believe there is that big of a difference between 5400/7200 HDDs now because they have a lot more cache/areal density then the old 5400 20 GB HDDs from the past.... i would excpect a ~2-20% performance drop based on application

7200 RPM drives cost like 5 dollars more, i would just stick with the tried and true

*edit*

@ IDontCare
I really dont think its a yields thing, because these manufactures have been making 7200 rpm drives for years and years, and unless they severely downgraded the internals based on sake of cost i would expect them to be the same drive, just with a different controller/motor
 

Eric62

Senior member
Apr 17, 2008
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My guesstimates: if I were to buy a SAMSUNG Spinpoint F2EG HD154UI 1.5TB 5400 RPM 32MB Cache SATA , attach it to a eSATA dock, and use it to store and watch DivX movies, and play MP3's - I wouldn't notice a problem, and it might even live longer than a 7200 (has slower moving parts). But if I were to use it as my primary internal drive I could expect a noticeable performance hit in high end gaming, and possibly in download speeds...

Thanks for all of your helpful reply's.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
Originally posted by: Ben90
Honestly i don't believe there is that big of a difference between 5400/7200 HDDs now because they have a lot more cache/areal density then the old 5400 20 GB HDDs from the past.... i would excpect a ~2-20% performance drop based on application

2-20% drop is a lot IMO, but at any rate the biggest impact of lower rpms is the latency (access time)...the Achilles heel of spindle-drives already and here they go and take a step back with these sub-7200rpm drives.

Higher areal density only effects bandwidth, provided they buy beefy enough DSP's to be able to process the signals from the read-heads to extract the info from the platters at 7200rpm speeds.

Originally posted by: Ben90
@ IDontCare
I really dont think its a yields thing, because these manufactures have been making 7200 rpm drives for years and years, and unless they severely downgraded the internals based on sake of cost i would expect them to be the same drive, just with a different controller/motor

Not a yields or cost thing? What else would you suggest is these companies motivation for not implementing a tried/true 7200rpm solution (or 10k or 15k rpm for that matter)? They just got lazy?
 

Russwinters

Senior member
Jul 31, 2009
409
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Speed makes a big difference.



Here is the thing. Because on 1TB+ drives the data is more densely packed, so the heads do not have to travel as far to get to another sector like on smaller, older drives where the data density was much lower.


This essentially means a 5400RPM 1TB drive today is as fast as a 7200RPM drive...say 4 or 5 years ago (Probably like 75MB/s)




By lowering the RPM the drives spindle motor does not have to use as much energy. hence the "green power" and LP drives.

In the past the performance hit would have made the drive too slow to be useful, but because of increasing data densities they are now able to make drives that arn't half bad that can spin slower and save power.



Hope that helps
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
Still doesn't answer the question "why" which is what the OP is seeking. Why are companies dumping the 7200rpm speed when they cross the 1TB level?
 

Russwinters

Senior member
Jul 31, 2009
409
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Simple.


Higher speed = more vibration and more air moving inside the HDD.



What does this mean?


Sectors are written in tracks, the density is consistant from the outer edge to the inner most tracks, but the amount of sectors per track will shrink as you move inward more (because there is less circumference as you move inward)

This is also why the outer most tracks are the fastest, thus your OS and games written on the out tracks =)

(you can check this by running hdd tune, watch you MB/s slowly drop as it moves through the LBAs, this is because the higher the LBA, the further in the heads are moving)


Ok so, I mentioned density. To make hard drives larger, they are cramming more sectors on a platter, to do this they are making the magnetic domains "sectors". smaller then ever. this also means that the tracks have more sectors per track, and are thinner then before.

The heads are far from perfect, inside when the platters are spinning there is significant air hitting them, this is actually how they manage to not touch the platters, on the heads there is a component called the slider (little black thing) looking at a high megapixel pic, or a microscope you will see aerodynamic ridges in it, used to catch the air and float above the platter surface at ~4nm)

Ok so the wind is knock the heads around, making it hard for them to stay on track. Now throw in some vibrations, even subtle to our touch, but very large in scope of a hard drive (sectors are very small. you would need a unbelievably powerful microscope to see a sector)

Hard drives implement a "Closed loop system" to help with this. It's called Servo. Servo is written at the factory after the hard drive is fully assembled. it is written on the platters and can never be changed. it is written by a servo writer, it enters the hard drive through the side, notice the silver rectangular sticker on the side of the drive covering a mysterious opening, now you know why its there.

The servo utilizes "gray code" - you can google that.

This gray code is a signal, it is written in between the tracks, and is used to tell the heads if they are staying on track. Without going in to too much detail, a very basic expanation would be to think of bumper bowling, with the bumpers to make sure the bowling ball stays in the lane, its kind of like that, only the bumpers are two different signals, if the heads sense too much of a certain signal then it adjusts itself to be in the middle again.


It really is much more complicated then this, but its too much to type in a single post, maybe I will write a book someday.


I hope this sort of clears things up for you, but it probably just makes everything more confusing. I was really trying to keep it simple =)



Enjoy,
 

Syntax Error

Senior member
Oct 29, 2007
617
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Originally posted by: Eric62If a 1 TB HDD 5400 is your primary HDD with installed OS, will it play games like Crysis at acceptable frame rates?
So many questions, so few answers - so far...

If you've gotta ask that, then your current hard drive's gotta really suck.

HDDs will not be the bottleneck for FPS unless if the game utilizes methods to load textures on-the-fly during gameplay to minimize actual load periods. 5,400 RPM drives have plenty of sequential read speeds but in access times it might become problematic, especially if your drive is fragmented.
 

F1shF4t

Golden Member
Oct 18, 2005
1,583
1
71
Originally posted by: Eric62
Why are so many new huge hard drives coming out at 5400, or 5900 RPM's, instead of the traditional 7200?
What kind of performance hit does the 5400 take? If a 1 TB HDD 5400 is your primary HDD with installed OS, will it play games like Crysis at acceptable frame rates?
So many questions, so few answers - so far...

Noise, heat, vibration. There are some applications where speed is not everything. The fact that I can stick them into external enclosures and not have them cook themselves due to minimal cooling is usefull.

For OS drive i'd stick with the 7200rpm models though since the 5400rpm models biggest sacrifice is what makes the biggest difference in OS performance. (Random read/write times, something which SSDs excell at)

 

Gillbot

Lifer
Jan 11, 2001
28,830
17
81
Originally posted by: zagood
If 1TB drives go over 7000RPM for a decent amount of time, they can shatter and fling shrapnel fast enough to go through your case and take out your knee.

kidding.

HDD rotational speed can make a pretty big difference, but you usually won't see it in FPS, you'll see it in program startup, level loading times, OS startup, stuff like that.

all that data is heavy, it'll throw it out the edges.
 

Ben90

Platinum Member
Jun 14, 2009
2,866
3
0
I was rereading this a little bit, and i think i completely missed the "yields vs reliability"
I think u meant something else with yields but the concept is still true... I guess im just lucky in that i dont consider reliability of a HDD important at all because ive never ever ever had one fail; but Russwinters makes a great point that the less the margin of error is; the greater chance of a failure.

http://www.tomshardware.com/re...e-upgrade,2377-10.html
i hate to pull stuff off of that site; but power consumption/reliability seem to be the reason for the 5400 drives... I think its similar to the netbook situation, manufactures seem to believe that the sweet spot in performance has been hit and look to improve other things such as whats been mentioned

Im a speed freak (on a budget) so i would stay away from 5400 at all costs, because...like has already been stated.... head seek performance will be terrible
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
Originally posted by: Ben90
I was rereading this a little bit, and i think i completely missed the "yields vs reliability"
I think u meant something else with yields but the concept is still true... I guess im just lucky in that i dont consider reliability of a HDD important at all because ive never ever ever had one fail; but Russwinters makes a great point that the less the margin of error is; the greater chance of a failure.

http://www.tomshardware.com/re...e-upgrade,2377-10.html
i hate to pull stuff off of that site; but power consumption/reliability seem to be the reason for the 5400 drives... I think its similar to the netbook situation, manufactures seem to believe that the sweet spot in performance has been hit and look to improve other things such as whats been mentioned

Im a speed freak (on a budget) so i would stay away from 5400 at all costs, because...like has already been stated.... head seek performance will be terrible

Yes that was my point, which is what Russwinters went into detail regarding.

It costs money and time to buy/engineer components that are going to have high enough reliability that the drive manufacturer is going to be willing to sell the drives for profits that won't turn into liabilities as these puppies start dying on them in the field within warranty.

The cheapest/easiest thing to do is relax the rpms, reduce the stress on the drive, call it a green drive so no one feels like they are getting ripped off, and sell it without having to spend a great deal of money or time developing a more robust hard-drive.

This pathway to product development has always been there in this market, for the past 40 yrs at any time any manufacturer could elect to just "decrease rpms" and suddenly their next-gen high density "almost production ready" HDD could become production ready. This isn't some new cost-saving strategy developed post 1TB drives.

Sorry if I wasted anyone's time with my Socratic method of getting this point across but I figured once it became obvious to me that no one was really getting what I meant by "reliability vs yield" I needed to switch gears, play dumb, and let someone else explain to me (and to everyone else) in their own words why 1TB 7200rpm drives were scarce.
 
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