TBird/Duron heatsink force

[Lord Evermore]

This is a long rant, go near the bottom to see about the heatsinks.

Well, I've been offline (mostly) for a week and just got back today. Last Sunday I was working on my system (modding a Duron...) and when putting the heatsink back on, managed to smear Arctic Silver where it shouldn't have. I didn't know it of course.

I nearly cut through skin on both my thumbs trying to mount my heatsink, due to the force required (FOP38 h/s-fan with the included clip). Finally I got it attached, and it wouldn't boot. So I figured I'd just screwed up the crossing of the bridges and I'd try it again (just used a fine mechanical pencil). So I fought the heatsink off, and then saw that the AS had just a little bit touched the resistor thingies beside the CPU core. I then discovered that that stuff doesn't come off very easily, and in fact spreads quite a bit when you try.

But, there was still hope...until I saw the core. With all the fighting to get the heatsink clipped, I'd crushed the corners of the core (I didn't see it at first because the silver compound was kind of holding it together). Just a small amount of the core was broken on two corners, but it was quite obviously enough to call it dead.

So, I tried ordering a new Thunderbird (this was obviously a sign that I needed to upgrade) on Monday. The place I ordered them from claimed they were in stock and they shipped same day. (This reminds me I need to hit resellerratings.) So I ordered two of them because they were phenomenally cheap and I wanted to be sure I always had a backup, since this was going to be several days without my main computer. (I was more pissed about that than about having broken the CPU; I love cheap processors!) So, I didn't get a confirmation email by the end of the day, so I called them. I got the order number, and they showed it was processed. The very non-intelligent person on the phone said their web site's email system was down. Okay, so I waited till the next day, checking the order status once in a while. The order was placed before 8:30AM Pacific time (their time) on Monday. Tuesday, still 'processing'. Tuesday afternoon, 'processing'. Evening 'processing'. So I called before I left work. Or tried to, several times. Kept getting to a voicemail box or just "we can't answer your call, try again later".

Finally later that night I got through. Order, 'processing'. Status, they don't even have any Thunderbird's, and don't know when they'll be in. So I cancelled the order of course, since I'd now wasted two days waiting on them. (I'd ordered 2 day air so they'd be there by Wednesday and not have to wait through Thanksgiving.) I checked my credit card later online and there was a charge already on it for the processors! They'd submitted the charge the same day I ordered, and they didn't even HAVE the damn things, let alone not having shipped them yet! It took until Friday before the credit was put through on the card.

So, it's now Wednesday, and obviously I'm not going to be able to order anything and get it before Monday (even if it came Friday, nobody would be at the office to receive it). So I called a few local places, and nobody has the CPU I want (and they're wicked expensive for the next lower speed). But, luckily, there's a computer show Sunday. So I resign myself to a week without this computer. I still have my Linux box, so I can do my bare minimum of email checking and online banking (and I can use my roommate's machine if I need to). But I can't do any gaming of course.

Then I broke the Linux box. While installing Opera (browser), the system actually locked up, hard. The mouse still moved, but nothing was responding and there was no disk activity for like an hour. So I shut it down. Booted back up, and of course there's corruption. It deals with most of it, but hda2 needs fsck run manually. Unfortunately I don't know how to run it manually (and I'd done this once before when I first built it and ended up reinstalling Linux). So for another day I didn't even have the Linux box. But then I decrypted the error message and did some guessing and got fsck to work and got it back up and running.

So, Saturday comes around. I've already cleaned my entire room, including my desk and the top of my dresser, neither of which has had light shining on them since I moved in here (very nearly literal truth for the dresser), and I've dusted everything. And done laundry. And learned what was needed to fix our leaky faucet (since our landlord was being a prick about it), and how to workaround the problem in the meantime. Plus I sorted all of the paperwork I've been saving since my first job in 1995 as well as got emotional about some mementos of my childhood. And I almost took up cross-stitching, but was daunted by the complexity of the stitching (really).

So obviously I was really really bored. I actually got to work on time a couple of days last week since I didn't have the distraction in the morning.

So I was cleaning up the heatsink in preparation for the new processor. And I started to wonder why it needed so much force to put on. I kept the dead processor (of course), so I messed with it some and saw that it took no force at all to press down the little feet. I was able with my fingers and very slight pressure to compress them to the level of the CPU, or lower. So why did the clip need to be so tight. I tried bending it to make it not take so much pressure, but the metal is very thick. So then I remembered my old heatsink. Before I got this larger h/s, I'd been for a few days using the h/s from the old K6-3 system (which cooled it rather well actually). So I pulled that out and compared. The smaller heatsink's clip was actually thinner than the K7 h/s. Much thinner. And I'd actually robbed that clip from some other heatsink because the original was impossible to work with (not that this one's all that easy), and I'd bent it to reduce the pressure. Plus, the older heatsink had a thinner base, so the clip didn't have to bend so far to reach the tabs on the socket.

So I had a clip with LESS pressure due to the thickness of the metal and the angle it was designed at, and also a smaller heatsink, and it cooled nearly as well as this new Duron/TBird heatsink which required nearly more force than my hand was able to put out (and I did have to use a screwdriver to even get it clipped).

Now obviously I want to have the larger heatsink, and since the new heatsink has a thicker base, the old clip will actually apply more pressure on the new heatsink than the old h/s. So, of course, I swapped the clips. It went on easily, and obviously was tight enough because it wouldn't push down any more. The system is running a LITTLE bit warmer than I'd like, 49C right now, so tomorrow I'll probably bend the clip a little to make it a tad tighter just to be sure, but there's no way I'll use the original clip again. I'm far too afraid of breaking the CPU again, or even the socket on the motherboard.

However this all begs the question, WHY does this heatsink come with a clip requiring so much force? I know they're supposed to require more force than other chips, due to the levelling pads (the 'feet'), but those pads compress very easily, they don't need 40 pounds of force just to clip to the socket. I know some people have an easy time of it, but if this is the 'standard' clip requirement, why is it that way? It's way too easy to damage the CPU or the socket getting that clip on (if I'd thought of it sooner today, I'd have bought another cooler with one of the 3 tab designed clips, to spread the force and maybe prevent a socket tab breaking).

 

[Mikewarrior2]

The duron's/t-birds require the extra pressure(~15, can't remember teh exact number psi) because of a)the pads, and b)to ensure a flush cpu/heatsink mounting, since the chips run so warm.


Mike

 

[Lord Evermore]

My whole point though is that they DON'T require much pressure to compress those pads and make contact with the CPU core. With only a little bit of force I can press the pads down below the level of the core, or at least to core level. I've got it mounted right now with an older, not very tight clip, and it's cooling pretty well. I'm only going to tighten it a little to ensure that it's a good solid contact with the core, but nowhere near breaking force.

 

[Mikewarrior2]

It coudl also be a GlobalWin QC issue. In my experience, their overall quality of product is somewhat lacking. Good cooling, but little bits like the clip may have varying quality.

Also, most socket A clips aren't as hard to mount as the globalwins. The taisol clips tend to be medium as far as mounting rpessure.


Mike

 

[Maverick]

if it makes you feel better, I screwed up a T-bird 900 by forcing down my alpha on it unknowingly. After putting the heatsink on and off a million times to try and get the thing working, I became a pro at putting on alpha heatsinks. So when I scrounged up cash for a Duron 650, I just popped on the hsf without a hitch. Still, its a horrible design...and it cost me a lot of money. I'd like to frickin sue someone

 

[HellRaven]

<< My whole point though is that they DON'T require much pressure to compress those pads and make contact >>



It is not just the pads. They also want to insure proper contact between the core and the heatsink. It is alot of pressure. When I took off my Pal3065 for the first time after it had been running about a month, the lettering on the core was imprinted on the copper base. I have not had any problems with two different heatsinks I have installed on socket-a platforms, the Alpha Pal3065 and the Globalwin Fop32-1. The bottom line is that there IS a reason AMD requires a strong clip, otherwise why would they have done it?



<< I nearly cut through skin on both my thumbs trying to mount my heatsink, due to the force required >>



Obviously your first time installing a socket-a heatsink. Next time hook one side on and then use a screwdriver or another metal object to press down the other side. No sore thumbs. The only danger is hitting your motherboard but I have uninstalled and then reinstalled my Alpha 3 times now for various reasons and haven't had any trouble whatsoever. I have only installed the Globalwin once though on my friends duron system. I think I do remember the Fop32 being harder to install than the Alpha though.



<< 49C right now >>



That is pretty hot if you are running at the default mhz and voltage. I have a duron 600 running 400mhz over spec at 1ghz and it doesn't even get that hot at peak when running Rc5 or gaming on my Alpha Pal3065 w/ sunon 23.5 cfm fan.

 

[Lord Evermore]

Actually it appears to be running a tad over the default voltage. This motherboard (KT7-RAID) did the same thing on the Duron, just a few hundredths of a volt over the default, and the 12V and 5V readings are off as well (more than on other boards I've seen). I'm going to play in the BIOS when I get home tonight and see if I can even it out. This may be the famous Abit quality control.

When I took the heatsink off the Duron, the printing from the core was impressed on the heatsink as well, pretty much just that the pressure had squeezed out all the arctic silver leaving it only in the spaces of the lettering. That's obviously a good tight fit, which I understand you want with any heatsink since you want the metal touching and the heatsink compound only used where the metal can't touch. But I still feel that this clip required MORE pressure than was really needed to provide a good tight fit to the core. I can't imagine AMD not testing this and realizing that at a certain point people are as likely to break the core as they are to mount it properly. In that case I would think if they really required that much pressure to get a good contact, then they would have come up with some better way of mounting it or levelling it off, so that you could get a good contact without cracking the core or breaking the socket.

This wasn't the first time I'd installed the heatsink. It went fine the first few times that I'd mounted it, except for being very difficult. And I did use a screwdriver, after trying with my hands first. However I didn't pull the motherboard out of the case to do it, and the KT7 puts the CPU socket at the very edge of the top of the board, so there's barely any space between it and the metal case divider and power supply. Fitting my hand as well as a screwdriver in there and being able to maneuver wasn't easy, and this clip is just crap as well. It's the very miniature kind with just the slightest bit of surface for putting your thumb or a screwdriver on to put pressure downward, and it always wanted to snap inward before making it down to the socket tab. It was all the fighting to get it clipped that caused the breakage.

Here's the problem I see: Why make it so difficult to mount that you almost HAVE to remove the motherboard from the case, even if your board has the socket in a slightly better position, just so that you can fit your hands and all your tools in, just to push down on a clip? (Of course this requires unplugging all your cables and pulling out all of your expansion cards, and if your case doesn't have a motherboard shelf that slides out or folds out, you have to unscrew it from the case.) Of all the computers I've assembled never have I had so much trouble getting a clip put on, and if this is the way it's supposed to be, then somebody was just plain stupid on the design teams.

I may order a new heatsink assembly just to compare and see if it's anywhere near as hard to put on. Maybe I just got a clip that accidentally was thicker than usual.

 

[Technonut]

What color is your FOP 38? If it is black, chances are it is the model that has a lip on it that will need to be ground off to fit flush. I had a black one, and noticed the lip when I was lapping the FOP. If you have the silver one, maybe you are installing it backwards. It has to be installed in one direction only due to the core pressure point on the clip.

I used a screwdriver on the one that I used for testing (I retired it, since I found the Alpha to be a better choice for me) and had no problems with installation. The part of the clip that has the slot that the screwdriver fits in should be at the top of the socket. (the part of the socket with the step in it) I hope this helps some.

 

[jinsonxu]

Got an Alpha Pal 6035 today for fun. Wanted to see the difference between the FOP38 and it.
Actually more like wanted to be able to run RC5 at night without getting crazed by that noise. If i didn't know better, i'd swear it's a vaccumn cleaner. Hand held version.

 

[jinsonxu]

Lord Evermore, i understand your rant.
I spent about 2h at first when i was first trying to unhook the HSF and then put it on. Thanks to Two-face's patience with me in IRC, i finally got the knack for it.

The 3rd time i installed it, (pencilling), i didn't bother to take outta the MB (horribly troublesome) and installed it right on. It was a scary experience , trust me. The space was only enough for my screwdriver and to get that friggin clip into place, i risked the chip for 2 seconds to use my left hand to hold the screwdriver in place while my right hand forefinger tipped the clip into place. Thank the gods that the CPU still worked. hehe

 

[jinsonxu]

The Alpha PAL 6035 is great!!! I just installed it.
38 degrees! down from 60 degrees plus.
I decided to give it a go and overclocked to 1 gig immdiately.
Running Sisoft benches at the moment.

Thing is, the Alpha came with Thermal Grease. No thermal pad. I'm not sure about it's viability.

And there's no chance of getting any Artic Silver nor thermal pads in my place. I've done an extensive search today.

 

[Horsepower]

Geez!! And I thought I was going to break something installing the stock AMD fan on my 1.1 TBird

 

[DaddyG]

AMD is the one that specs the clip pressure at 12-20 lbs. Couple of points, the FOP should have come with PCTC pre-applied, it works well AND it provides a small cushion for the delicate core.

You also have to consider that when the cpu, and hsf get hot, the issue of expansion has to be considered. You've got the socket, the cpu, the clips and the hsf.

 

[Maverick]

I've heard the alpha thermal grease is good, but I bought some Arctic Silver since it was available locally.

 

[Gef0rce]

My cousin tried a 1.2 using factory approved HS, he put the grove to the back-yep he crushed the die area around the CPU-History, he is a good builder but this time he did not check, needless to say he is sik.

 

[Whitedog]

I took a razor blade and WHACKED off those tampon CPU pads.. hehe.. don't need them. I've got a big heavy Copper HS sitting on it too. Went on like cake.

the Only thing. Without the extra support under the HS, that damn Copper HS tends to vibrate and HUmMMMMMmMMmmmm... with the fan running on it. sucks!

I'm thinking about mounting the fan on the case and running a duct to the Copper HS. WOw that Hummmmmm is loud!

If you don't like noise! Don't cut the pads off!

 

[Lord Evermore]

I'm mounting it correctly, I know that much.

Reducing the voltage in the BIOS to 1.70 volts equated to a voltage of 1.78 volts in the motherboard monitoring software (two different ones; MBM has yet to make me happy and work easily) and the BIOS PC Health screen. The processor temp dropped by several degrees after that. I'll probably try another step down tonight, but I'm worried that it will go too low (when I was trying the same thing with the Duron, it jumped from a tad too high to a tad too low.

My roommate just got a retail Athlon 900, and the clip on the retail heatsink is as thick and strong as the one that came with the FOP32 (not the FOP38 as I mentioned earlier; I always forget which model it is). I still fail to see the need for it. At least the retail clip was much much better designed for using a screwdriver and would have worked with it mounted already (it uses a little tab on the clip, which doesn't swivel like the one on the FOPXX's, so you get a steady force that continues straight down). If the FOP32 came with that type of clip, I doubt I'd have damaged the processor; the swivelling causes the grief, as it happens just before the clip hits the lug/tab on the socket, and it goes so far that it can't just slide back out onto the lug, you have to use something else to push it back out.

Heatsink compound/tape that comes preapplied may be considered 'cushioning' and 'effective' by some people, but not by me. It may cool well enough, but I like Arctic Silver because I know I'm getting the best heat conduction I can get, so the heatsink can do the best job it can. 'Cushioning' to me just means the heatsink is not coming into strong contact with the CPU core. I want something that can ooze out of the parts that CAN make contact and only fill in those minute gaps where the machining isn't perfect. This is the role of heatsink compound. The best cooling is when the metal of the heatsink touches the metal of the core, but since neither is perfectly flat, ever (even though to your naked eye they may be close), the compound fills in the gaps to provide a better heat flow than if there was just air in the gaps.

 

[MattStone]

My first chip install (on my own) was a ghz t-bird and a tight-ass hs/f...boy, It had me worried, in the end, I spent about an hour bending the fat-ass clip so it would go on with less pressure...made me so nervous, and the machine wouldn't boot either. Luckily it was just a misplaced jumper on the mobo, but I about puked.