Teachers pay is a disgrace.

[JoeKing]

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: JoeKing

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: JoeKing
Have a good day as well, as long as you don't snip the quotes you have made that lead me to believe you find "education is a farce, a job for security,"

I may be a jerk, but I won't stoop to those tactics

well you have before

You have got to be kidding me. Please provide proof that I have EVER gone back and removed/altered the content of any one of my posts after being questioned or called on them.

I am an aggressive debater, but I "play by the rules" as far as such rules exist for debating on ATOT. I take exception to you making such categorically false accusations about me without so much as a link to back up your BS.

If you're going to make that kind of accusation, by God you had better have some amazing proof to back it up, so let's see it.

I'm not saying that you edited your content. I'm saying that you have left out my quotes, specifically the example quotes of your writings I listed several times. In live debates everyone gets a chance to hear the arguments from start to finish, but in a thread this large the omission of information is almost as good as.... wait for it.... wait for it..... deceit. :shocked:.

See I can be an a-hole to, but I choose to do it in a non direct manner, it's more interesting that way.

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: JoeKing
I'm not saying that you edited your content. I'm saying that you have left out my quotes, specifically the example quotes of your writings I listed several times. In live debates everyone gets a chance to hear the arguments from start to finish, but in a thread this large the omission of information is almost as good as.... wait for it.... wait for it..... deceit. :shocked:.

See I can be an a-hole to, but I choose to do it in a non direct manner, it's more interesting that way.

Through the mystical technology of the scroll bar, anyone who wishes to can read any of your posts to this thread regardless of whether I quoted them in part or in full later on.

It's not deception just because some moron is too lazy to scroll back and see what was said.

This isn't non-direct, it's just stupid.

 

[Kipper]

Originally posted by: Haps

Originally posted by: MadCowDisease

Originally posted by: Haps

Nurses also have very stressful jobs, long hours, lots of responsibility, and on average start out making 32k a year. So the pay for teaching seems pretty adequate in comparison.

I have no idea where you're getting this information, but there is a TREMENDOUS amount of demand for nurses and a generally accepted nationwide shortage. Some RN's I personally know make upwards of $50 an hour.

RN's are different then Nurses and some nurses you know have probably worked for a little bit. But the national average starting salary is around 32k

There's a lot of room for pay increases, however...that's the rub.

 

[Kipper]

Originally posted by: Xenon14

1) No one forces you to be a teacher. If you decide to be a teacher, deal with it yourself.
2) Teacher's salary, like any other, is mainly determined by supply/demand of society.
3) My math showing that teachers actually get paid more than the average american by re-adjusting time worked vs salary acquired.

What you fail to understand that no matter how much or how little a teacher gets paid it will always be fair for one reason and one reason only: A salary is offered to a potential teacher, and that potential teacher takes that salary/job: IT'S A MUTUAL AGREEMENT. BOTH PARTIES AGREE on the salary. MUTUAL AGREEMENTS ARE INHERENTLY FAIR.

Wow. It seems I hit a nerve, if you take my argument put out as 'whining.'

Okay, nobody forces you to be a teacher, granted, but does that give school districts the right to pay teachers poor salaries? I fail to see your logic here. It would be understandable for starting salaries to be reduced or at a lower rate, but teachers' pay is low to begin with and rarely, if ever, increases. Compare that to other fields, and do the math. Teachers put in a great deal of work and I think they should appropriately be compensated for those reasons I mentioned above (that you completely ignored and chalked up as 'whining') - supply and demand would really come into play if there was an glut or shortage of educators, but presumably there is no real 'shortage' or 'glut' to the number of teachers in the schools, nor SHOULD there be too many or too little teachers.

Your 'math' takes into account the 'average' work of a teacher, but also fails to take into account: volunteering, summer school, preparation of lesson plans, etc. You can't simply dilute an individual's work into eight months. Remember, schools are not in session during the summer months, but a teacher's day does not start at 8AM and end at 2:30 when school lets out. There's quite a bit of behind the scenes work which goes on, and it is not 'easy' at that.

Now in respect to a mutual agreement being inherently fair, I don't really think this is the case. while it is true that a contractual agreement necessitates agreement by both parties, this does not entail that it is INHERENTLY 'fair.' You could apply the same argument to sweatshop workers or workers in the third world. While these are not equivalents to the situation I would expect an OBJECTIVELY 'fair' teacher's contract to reflect their work and note that their work is appreciated.

Perhaps it's not possible in a society which values money and budgets above everything for people to actually note that it's not possible to have a GOOD education system without paying for it. I'm done.

 

[DT4K]

Originally posted by: compfreak999
teachers really do deserve more money, well at least the good dedicated teachers, they teach the future generation and without them there wouldnt be any more high tech sectors in the business field. Do teachers really deserve next to minimal wage for carrying such a heavy task? i believe that the good teachers deserve better pay. i personally had a extreamly good teacher that devoted her time to helping anyone after school if they needed help. (jumped to a higher math class so yea needed help)

Where do you people come up with this stuff?
Next to minimum wage??????
I am so sick of hearing this myth about teachers being paid poverty level wages.

According to the American Federation of Teachers, the average teacher salary in 2001 was 44,000 / yr.
Hmmmm, roughly 4 times the minimum wage and nowhere near the poverty level.
And higher than hundreds of other occupations that require an equivalent amount of education.

And this is with for working substantially less.

Factoring in an extra 35 days of work would push the average teacher salary to $52,541, the survey said.

 

[JoeKing]

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: JoeKing
I'm not saying that you edited your content. I'm saying that you have left out my quotes, specifically the example quotes of your writings I listed several times. In live debates everyone gets a chance to hear the arguments from start to finish, but in a thread this large the omission of information is almost as good as.... wait for it.... wait for it..... deceit. :shocked:.

See I can be an a-hole to, but I choose to do it in a non direct manner, it's more interesting that way.

Through the mystical technology of the scroll bar, anyone who wishes to can read any of your posts to this thread regardless of whether I quoted them in part or in full later on.

It's not deception just because some moron is too lazy to scroll back and see what was said.

This isn't non-direct, it's just stupid.

true, but should my arguement have to suffer due to that persons stupidity? Is everyone eagerly following every post made in this monster thread, noting the semantics in each post, which the argument regressed to?

 

[rainypickles]

Originally posted by: Haps
Nurses also have very stressful jobs, long hours, lots of responsibility, and on average start out making 32k a year. So the pay for teaching seems pretty adequate in comparison.

i think nurses should get paid a lot more. a LOT more. i just never knew they made so little.

 

[rainypickles]

some math for Xenon14

http://www.notso.com/tchrpay.htm

pretend teaching is just babysitting, hourly rate for 1 kid is $3
say a teacher watches 20 kids for 5 hours a day, that should be about $300/day.
teachers "only" work 180 days, so that works out to be about $54,000.

and thats just for for babysitting. throw in a story, some experience, actual learning, or a masters degree and shouldnt the rate go up?

btw, teachers are expected to put up cash from their own pocket, which doesnt happen much in other professions, it seems.

 

[BadgerFan]

This thread proves how bad education can be, there is an alarming number of people making ignorant, uninformed comments on this subject. Worst of all I think they actually believe themselves...

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: rainypickles
some math for Xenon14

http://www.notso.com/tchrpay.htm

pretend teaching is just babysitting, hourly rate for 1 kid is $3
say a teacher watches 20 kids for 5 hours a day, that should be about $300/day.
teachers "only" work 180 days, so that works out to be about $54,000.

and thats just for for babysitting. throw in a story, some experience, actual learning, or a masters degree and shouldnt the rate go up?

btw, teachers are expected to put up cash from their own pocket, which doesnt happen much in other professions, it seems.

I don't think it scales that way. My grandmother charges $40 per hour for tutoring. Worth every penny I must add, since her customers shower her with gifts on top of that. I guess if she was teaching in school, that would mean $800/hr?

 

[Xenon14]

Originally posted by: rainypickles
some math for Xenon14

http://www.notso.com/tchrpay.htm

pretend teaching is just babysitting, hourly rate for 1 kid is $3
say a teacher watches 20 kids for 5 hours a day, that should be about $300/day.
teachers "only" work 180 days, so that works out to be about $54,000.

and thats just for for babysitting. throw in a story, some experience, actual learning, or a masters degree and shouldnt the rate go up?

btw, teachers are expected to put up cash from their own pocket, which doesnt happen much in other professions, it seems.

Unlike your math, my math has nothing to do with "pretending" it's merely an adjustment to represent quantity of time worked vs. salary.

 

[Xenon14]

Originally posted by: MadCowDisease

Originally posted by: Xenon14

1) No one forces you to be a teacher. If you decide to be a teacher, deal with it yourself.
2) Teacher's salary, like any other, is mainly determined by supply/demand of society.
3) My math showing that teachers actually get paid more than the average american by re-adjusting time worked vs salary acquired.

What you fail to understand that no matter how much or how little a teacher gets paid it will always be fair for one reason and one reason only: A salary is offered to a potential teacher, and that potential teacher takes that salary/job: IT'S A MUTUAL AGREEMENT. BOTH PARTIES AGREE on the salary. MUTUAL AGREEMENTS ARE INHERENTLY FAIR.

Wow. It seems I hit a nerve, if you take my argument put out as 'whining.'

Okay, nobody forces you to be a teacher, granted, but does that give school districts the right to pay teachers poor salaries? I fail to see your logic here. It would be understandable for starting salaries to be reduced or at a lower rate, but teachers' pay is low to begin with and rarely, if ever, increases. Compare that to other fields, and do the math. Teachers put in a great deal of work and I think they should appropriately be compensated for those reasons I mentioned above (that you completely ignored and chalked up as 'whining') - supply and demand would really come into play if there was an glut or shortage of educators, but presumably there is no real 'shortage' or 'glut' to the number of teachers in the schools, nor SHOULD there be too many or too little teachers.

Your 'math' takes into account the 'average' work of a teacher, but also fails to take into account: volunteering, summer school, preparation of lesson plans, etc. You can't simply dilute an individual's work into eight months. Remember, schools are not in session during the summer months, but a teacher's day does not start at 8AM and end at 2:30 when school lets out. There's quite a bit of behind the scenes work which goes on, and it is not 'easy' at that.

Now in respect to a mutual agreement being inherently fair, I don't really think this is the case. while it is true that a contractual agreement necessitates agreement by both parties, this does not entail that it is INHERENTLY 'fair.' You could apply the same argument to sweatshop workers or workers in the third world. While these are not equivalents to the situation I would expect an OBJECTIVELY 'fair' teacher's contract to reflect their work and note that their work is appreciated.

Perhaps it's not possible in a society which values money and budgets above everything for people to actually note that it's not possible to have a GOOD education system without paying for it. I'm done.

I'm diluting things? I'm interning in NYC for the summer and my commute takes 5 hours a day. Not only do I not get paid for that commute, it costs me money - $20 a day just for the train ticket, I'm not even factoring gas money to get to and from the train station. If you factor in my commute as part of my working hours, the amount I get paid an hour is halved! I'm not the only one, many people have to spend extra time for their work that they do no get compensated for fashion designers, lawyers, construction workers, etc. Teachers aren't an exception.

You could apply the same argument to sweatshop workers or workers in the third world.

Yes, you could. In fact, you should. That argument applies to sweatshops perfectly.

 

[SuperTool]

I know a teacher who makes well over $60K if he teaches during the summer, with 10 years experience, in California. He teaches computers, basically excell, word, etc to kids.
He has great benefits, and a pension plan. I don't feel sorry for him at all.

 

[rainypickles]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: rainypickles
some math for Xenon14

http://www.notso.com/tchrpay.htm

pretend teaching is just babysitting, hourly rate for 1 kid is $3
say a teacher watches 20 kids for 5 hours a day, that should be about $300/day.
teachers "only" work 180 days, so that works out to be about $54,000.

and thats just for for babysitting. throw in a story, some experience, actual learning, or a masters degree and shouldnt the rate go up?

btw, teachers are expected to put up cash from their own pocket, which doesnt happen much in other professions, it seems.

I don't think it scales that way. My grandmother charges $40 per hour for tutoring. Worth every penny I must add, since her customers shower her with gifts on top of that. I guess if she was teaching in school, that would mean $800/hr?

i agree it doesnt scale exactly like that. one-on-one tutoring is worth a lot more (i dont think 40), so as you get more studetns, the rate should go down. $3/hr babysitting is pretty cheap. though.

 

[rainypickles]

Originally posted by: Xenon14

Originally posted by: rainypickles
some math for Xenon14

http://www.notso.com/tchrpay.htm

pretend teaching is just babysitting, hourly rate for 1 kid is $3
say a teacher watches 20 kids for 5 hours a day, that should be about $300/day.
teachers "only" work 180 days, so that works out to be about $54,000.

and thats just for for babysitting. throw in a story, some experience, actual learning, or a masters degree and shouldnt the rate go up?

btw, teachers are expected to put up cash from their own pocket, which doesnt happen much in other professions, it seems.

Unlike your math, my math has nothing to do with "pretending" it's merely an adjustment to represent quantity of time worked vs. salary.

my math assumes that teachers do a lot more more work in one hour than most people do in one hour. tell me, what would convince you teachers are underpaid? what exactly is wrong with "pretending"? i think that it is a good estimate.

 

[Chiropteran]

Thread is TL;DR.

It's about supply and demand. Apparently there are enough people willing to teach for low wages that there is an abundance of supply. I don't feel sorry that teachers get paid "little".

 

[tec699]

Originally posted by: Chiropteran
Thread is TL;DR.

It's about supply and demand. Apparently there are enough people willing to teach for low wages that there is an abundance of supply. I don't feel sorry that teachers get paid "little".

Actually that's wrong. There is a HUGE need for Math, Science and Special Education teachers. In fact, a male graduating with a Special Ed degreee will be hired immediately right out of college.

 

[Isla]

I teach because my husband makes enough money for it not to matter what a pittance I am paid.

I continue to teach because there is nothing so rewarding than to be a part of educating young minds.

If I had to teach to support myself, I'd be in trouble.

 

[Isla]

Oh yeah, my background is Psychology and I am working on a MA in Special Ed.

It is an HONOR for me to work with children with disabilities and their families. I might not get paid as much as someone who does something supposedly more difficult, but I sure as hell will leave this world feeling like I actually did something that mattered.

So there!

 

[Chiropteran]

Originally posted by: tec699

Originally posted by: Chiropteran
Thread is TL;DR.

It's about supply and demand. Apparently there are enough people willing to teach for low wages that there is an abundance of supply. I don't feel sorry that teachers get paid "little".

Actually that's wrong. There is a HUGE need for Math, Science and Special Education teachers. In fact, a male graduating with a Special Ed degreee will be hired immediately right out of college.

If there is a real shortage of teachers, teachers would be able to demand better pay and get it, because the schools would have no other option.

 

[Isla]

Originally posted by: Chiropteran

Originally posted by: tec699

Originally posted by: Chiropteran
Thread is TL;DR.

It's about supply and demand. Apparently there are enough people willing to teach for low wages that there is an abundance of supply. I don't feel sorry that teachers get paid "little".

Actually that's wrong. There is a HUGE need for Math, Science and Special Education teachers. In fact, a male graduating with a Special Ed degreee will be hired immediately right out of college.

If there is a real shortage of teachers, teachers would be able to demand better pay and get it, because the schools would have no other option.

Actually, lots of you IT guys who can't find jobs are teaching now.

 

[SaigonK]

wow..and you get the whole damn summer off..yeah teachers pay really sux ass....

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: rainypickles

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: rainypickles
some math for Xenon14

http://www.notso.com/tchrpay.htm

pretend teaching is just babysitting, hourly rate for 1 kid is $3
say a teacher watches 20 kids for 5 hours a day, that should be about $300/day.
teachers "only" work 180 days, so that works out to be about $54,000.

and thats just for for babysitting. throw in a story, some experience, actual learning, or a masters degree and shouldnt the rate go up?

btw, teachers are expected to put up cash from their own pocket, which doesnt happen much in other professions, it seems.

I don't think it scales that way. My grandmother charges $40 per hour for tutoring. Worth every penny I must add, since her customers shower her with gifts on top of that. I guess if she was teaching in school, that would mean $800/hr?

i agree it doesnt scale exactly like that. one-on-one tutoring is worth a lot more (i dont think 40), so as you get more studetns, the rate should go down. $3/hr babysitting is pretty cheap. though.

$40 for a 1-on-1 with a tutor is actually a bargain. Especially for someone with 60 years experience in teaching both students and other teachers.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Wow, an Isla sighting. Haven't seen her online in quite awhile. I miss some of the old members posting here.

 

[jamerdean]

Originally posted by: Crucial

Why should individuals with bachelor and master degrees have to take on a second job?

Why do individuals with degrees expect to be paid tons and tons of money? You are not entitled to anything because of that piece of paper.

you are absurd. it's not a piece of paper you jerk. its 4 to 10 years of your life that you spend hard at work trying to better your self with learning. That "piece of paper" represents many years of hard work, and people (especially teachers) deserve payment for that many years of hard work.