Teachers pay is a disgrace.

[homestarmy]

Let's talk about a real crisis, sending tech support jobs overseas. I already lost my overnight position, my job now will be gone soon also. And I don't make crap to begin with. I would kill for $27k a year!

 

[Whisper]

Teachers are underpaid in some respects, yes. But they also do have some perks. I'm pretty sure that here in GA, the average starting salary for a teacher is around $35k-40k or so...not too shabby at all.

Look at the starting salary for any other job in this state, and it's either right there or lower. Hell, with my psych degree if I wanted to go into social work, the most I could expect would be $25k-30k. Even with a Master's it's not much more, maybe $35k. If I didn't plan on going to graduate school, I'd be willing to accep that, though...it just comes with the territory.

However, those people that're saying teaching is easy are quite wrong. After the first year it does get easier, but that first year is pretty tough regardless of what grade level you're at. Also, if you factor in ESE teachers, then things get even worse. My ex is a new ESE teacher down in Florida (the state requires a Master's degree to be certified in ESE down there), and I think their average starting salary is around $27k.

There are some jobs that are underpaid (social work, law enforcement, teaching, etc.) and some that aren't. It's just something that you need to be aware of before you go into that field.

 

[DrPizza]

I'll chime in with my opinion (since I'm a teacher)
In my opinion, some teachers are over-paid, while others are underpaid - it's not universal. Someone above mentioned that there is no teaching shortage - incorrect. There's a shortage of qualified math and science teachers. In NY, and I believe PA, secondary education teachers must have a MAJOR in the field that they wish to teach, not a major in education. Education is a minor. Some schools do have programs where the major is watered down a little though. Personally, I majored in applied mathematics. (as well as had a major for 3 1/2 years in engineering) I'm now certified to teach math, physics, and chemistry. Am I the best teacher in those areas? No. I know others who do a better job than me - I'm still growing and improving though, I won't stop until I *am* the best math and science teacher that I know. I seem to be making progress, since this year during graduation, the salutatorian when acknowledging the "best teachers who made a major impact on my life" included me. Nonetheless, I feel that some subjects are more difficult to teach than others. But it's too difficult to really rank the level of difficulty. Elementary education - so much to plan for... so many classroom management skills to keep 20 or so youngsters under control - but extremely easy to go to college for - super easy courses. But still, I think it's a relatively easy occupation to be an elementary education teacher... especially since everything needed for planning is basically handed to them by the textbook publishers. Thus, elem ed teachers really seem to be a supply and demand type of area, in regards to salary.

On the other hand... I graduated summa cum laude in mathematics... (with a 4.0 in my major and minor), I have a very strong background in science and computer science, having originally minored in computer science while an engineering student, as well as having many courses in physics (22 credit hours) chemistry (24 credit hours) biology (8) geology (8) and paleobiology. I think there are those who could successfully argue that by being a high school teacher, I'm an underachiever. I can see where higher pay for math and science teachers would be justified (going back to the supply/demand model), but teacher's starting salaries are fairly uniform. I'm personally happy with my pay, especially for the area of the country I live in. But, there's no way in hell I'd work in some other areas of the country, I couldn't afford to live there (on a teacher's salary.)

Anyone who thinks I work 7:30 to 3:30 is sadly mistaken. If they'd like, they can come over some time in the fall and correct a pile of exams for me. I suppose I could take the easy way out and offer multiple choice problems, but I don't feel that multiple choice is the best assessment method for most of what I teach - I won't skimp on quality if favor of making it easier on myself. (although, there *are* times where multiple choice works well - just not in general) Of course, from 3:15 to 4:30 or 5:00, one or two days a week, you'll have to wait as I monitor the chess club (unpaid - I volunteered to do that when students approached me asking if I would). Oh, and I still don't get to go home, because it's 20 minutes each way - no point since I have to be back for play practice from 6 til 9 (but it's not going to get out until 10) - that only lasts for about 2 1/2 months though. And, lets not forget the faculty meetings, the union meetings (boring), meetings with parents (sometimes have to be there early for that), meetings for committees I'm on - attendance committee means at least an extra half hour a week to deal with parents of some student who has passed the allowable absences (after 20 absences a year, you're done. No more tests... 0's on everything else. - I don't give a rats ass about how the smart kids can get away with more absences - the policy has made the lower level kids more accountable and has actually had a big improvement on passing rates) Anyway, I can go on and on with these things. Plus, several students invited me to graduation parties... it's considered pretty bad manners to turn them down - which means I've gotta shell out $$ to stick on congratulation cards... (fortunately all were students I really really enjoyed having in class). Anyway... enough rambling from me....

 

[Red Dawn]

You'd have tp pay me much more than that to babysit the little moronic bastards that are totdays students. Face it that's what teachers are, Parents for the most part don't do sh!t when it comes to their little snot gobblers education and then blame the teachers/Schools when thier little darlings turn out to be as dumb as a rock.

 

[Whisper]

Originally posted by: homestarmy
That's not correct. College professors teach a total of maybe 4 classes, total under three hours per week each, that's under 12 hours actually teaching PER WEEK.

Now that's a great job. That's why I want to go for my masters.

I'd venture to say that this is mostly untrue. Beginning instructors probably teach the same or similar sections for a course maybe three or so times per day. Those professors that do teach fewer classes spend the vast majority of their time doing research.

Then again, teaching 4 college-level courses probably wouldn't be as easy as you think. But at least the students generally want to be there, so that's a plus.

Edited for my inability to do math =)

 

[homestarmy]

So you have to grade exams EVERY DAY? I think not.

And YOU volunteered for those other things.

 

[ABitTooSpicy]

In one of my internships, I was teaching computer classes to inner city kids and adults... It was seriously the most fun internship I ever had, it was more fun than my job now... I would love to go into teaching...
Except I started making what it would take a teacher about 10 years of experience to make, and I am only 1 year out of college...

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: Ranger X
What are you talking about? My friend is a teacher and she went into teaching, starting at like 40k. She only works 9 months out of the year and her work hours are 7am-3pm. She gets all the gov't holidays and gets great benefits. The rest of us work 8am-5pm and work year round -- minus vacation.

Her contact hours may be 7am-3pm, one hour less than yours, but most teacher's work hours are considerably more than their contact hours due to preparation time and grading. How long does it take you to prepare a one hour presentation?

However, I think the biggest improvement we could give to K-12 teachers and our education system isn't more money. Instead, we should give them the right to discipline kids and give them fewer classes to teach and thus more preparation periods during the day. Those are two of the essential characteristics of foreign education systems that crush the US system's performance every time they're measured.

 

[tec699]

Originally posted by: ABitTooSpicy
In one of my internships, I was teaching computer classes to inner city kids and adults... It was seriously the most fun internship I ever had, it was more fun than my job now... I would love to go into teaching...
Except I started making what it would take a teacher about 10 years of experience to make, and I am only 1 year out of college...

Your starting salary was over $40,000?

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: DeeTees
If you want truly bad pay for a hard job try adjunct faculty at state colleges. You teach half load, have office hours, prepare lessons, forms grading and after all that you are lucky to make $16,000.00 a year. Oh by the way no benefits and if you want retirement you can contribute as much of your after tax salery as you wish to a pension plan. The full time faculty teaching the same courses (full load) make 65-75K have full benefits, tenure and have 10% of their salary contributed to their pension fund.

JUst a note - the percentage of full time faculty at state colleges is declining while the adjunct staff is increasing. I still think that it is a bad idea to work at screwing the teaching profession at any level. If you pay sh*t wages you get poor teachers. If you pay sh*t wages and overload the poor teachers you get no trachers or teachers that need school themselves. Oops, I guess that is exactly what we have been doing.

(former adjunct professor in state community college who thought he owed something to the system, so took the job as a favor to a full time faculty member friend)

You're completely correct about adjunct teaching. It's the biggest problem with our higher education system, and it hurts both the faculty for the reasons outlined above and the students, who have a harder time getting in contact with their teachers because adjunct faculty have to work at 3 or 4 universities at once to make a living wage.

 

[GTaudiophile]

I agree.

What would I do about it? Make the president's salary as well as the salaries of all federal congressmen and women the average of all public employee salaries from post office workers, to policemen, to firemen, to military service personnel, etc.

 

[tec699]

Dr Pizza...

The starting salary for public school teachers in America aren't uniform. You can start off at a higher rate in NJ then you can in South Carolina. I brought this up in my initial post. It's all realitive though. NJ is an expemsive state to live in, so naturally the pay is going to be better.

Also, in your first paragraph your talking about the No Child Left Behind Act. Because of this federal law public schools are going to have a hard time finding qualified teachers in the secondary level. There is already talk that they might water it down a little so we shall see.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: homestarmy
That's not correct. College professors teach a total of maybe 4 classes, total under three hours per week each, that's under 12 hours actually teaching PER WEEK.

Now that's a great job. That's why I want to go for my masters.

Teaching loads for professors range from one to two class per term at major research universities to 5 classes per term at most community colleges. Note that professors at those research universities have to bring in most of their university's funding from outside sources (tuition pays only 14% of MIT's operating budget, for example), which makes up for the lower teaching load.

In addition to your contact time in class, there's preparing lectures and labs, office hours, running lab sections (research universities have TAs for that in general, but other schools aren't often so lucky), and grading, which quickly adds up to over 40 hours of teaching per week if you've got 5 classes, and a lot more if some of the classes are new to you. You also have department service activities which take another few hours, and then even if you are teaching 5 classes, you're expected to publish regularly which takes another 20 hours a week.

Best of luck if you want to become a professor. It's a hard road, and less than 10% of those who try for it get a tenure track job. After that, you can look forward to 7 or so years of 80 weeks proving yourself to your department before you can settle down to the cushy 40-60 hour weeks described above.

 

[homestarmy]

There's no way that professors, at least at my college, put in anything near 40 hours. There are no labs in most majors. They just get up there and talk about what they know about already. They just need a basic idea to start with in many cases.

 

[MechJinx]

here's a :beer: for DrPizza, well put

Sure, there are lousy teachers, but the system needs to be fixed to get rid of them and reward people like DrPizza for the effort they put into teaching. It's more than a job to them...

 

[Whisper]

Originally posted by: homestarmy
There's no way that professors, at least at my college, put in anything near 40 hours. There are no labs in most majors. They just get up there and talk about what they know about already. They just need a basic idea to start with in many cases.

As far as I know, UCF isn't a research institution. It's a very new school, and has yet to receive accreditation in many areas. That might be part of the reason.

Then again, as has been said, much of a professor's time is spent working outside of the classroom.

 

[OutHouse]

well start a movement in your county to get a tax hike bill on the ballot just to give teachers a pay raise.

 

[ucdnam]

I'm going into teaching and I know what I'm getting into. I have my BS in Biology from UC Davis and work as a computer programmer for the university. I'm vested in the retirement program and will be giving up good pay and benefits to do something that will pay less and be less stable (there's nothing more stable than working for a university or the state).

Due to the NCLB aka the ESEA that Bush passed, every teacher is to be fully qualified to teach. This means you need to have a degree in your subject as well as a teaching credential.

I have hopes that when I teach, I will get to discipline my 150 kids, give them the grades they deserve, not what their parents believe they should get, and teach them proper Biology, not what the school board thinks, in their mind, is right.

Of course, none of that is true, since we know kids get to do as they please, because parents will come and complain to administrators, who will then give in to the parent's demands and you'll be forced to give John and Jane their As, because if they don't get As, they won't get into their pretigious university.

 

[jyates]

Originally posted by: DrPizza
I'll chime in with my opinion (since I'm a teacher)
In my opinion, some teachers are over-paid, while others are underpaid - it's not universal. Someone above mentioned that there is no teaching shortage - incorrect. There's a shortage of qualified math and science teachers. In NY, and I believe PA, secondary education teachers must have a MAJOR in the field that they wish to teach, not a major in education. Education is a minor. Some schools do have programs where the major is watered down a little though.

I was the one who said there were no shortage of teachers and I'm stating what I know
about my local area. Most people who have education degrees have to move out of my
home area because all the local schools have full staffs and they have to move to other
areas in order to get a teaching job.

Defintely the money (if that is what a person is chasing) is in administration. You can make
some really big money being a super or vice super in my area (compared to most other jobs
in this area).

What they are doing right now is patching the problem in your area by setting the requirements but
I believe the wages of teachers will rise as soon as the school systems run out of ways to patch the
system and there is a real overall teacher shortage. They will have to throw more dollars at people
in order to get them to come and live and teach in their area.

My utmost respect goes out to the folks who really have a heart for teaching because the way that most "families" support their young people the poor teachers are fighting a virtually hopeless battle.

 

[homestarmy]

Originally posted by: Whisper

Originally posted by: homestarmy
There's no way that professors, at least at my college, put in anything near 40 hours. There are no labs in most majors. They just get up there and talk about what they know about already. They just need a basic idea to start with in many cases.

As far as I know, UCF isn't a research institution. It's a very new school, and has yet to receive accreditation in many areas. That might be part of the reason.

Then again, as has been said, much of a professor's time is spent working outside of the classroom.

UCF is a fully accredited state college. Actually, it is in the top ten universities in the country as far as size is concerned.

I'm sure some spend that much time. I guess its just that I got a good handfull of them who OBVIOUSLY didn't.

 

[flxnimprtmscl]

Eh, it's just indicitive of why there are so many freaking morons in this country. When you pay little more than lip service to the value of education you're not doing too well as a society. The entire education system needs a major enema, but that's not going to happen.

 

[MAME]

our school system is crap anyway

 

[prvteye2003]

Originally posted by: tec699
I?ve brought this issue up from time to time and I feel it needs revisiting. Teachers are inadequately paid. Plain and simple. Take a look at the starting salary from state to state and you?ll find that in most states teachers are starting off at a measley $27,000 a year. They max out in the mid $40,000 and the starting teacher?s salary that I just mentioned is for the mid-west and south. On the east and west coast teachers start off between $36,000-$42,000 We max out in the mid $60,000 Some of the wealthier districts even go as high as $80,000 Now you might think that this is great but you have to realize that NJ is an expensive state to live in. I?m talking $400,000 houses, $8,000 a year property taxes, $2,000 car insurance, etc? That $40,000 starting salary isn?t so hot after all. Also, to get up to the mid $60,000 range your talking 15+ years of teaching. I have buddies that have business degrees. Their starting salary was comparable to a teachers starting salary but they quickly shot up to the mid $60?s in a few years while a public school teacher's salary increases so much slower. I?m talking a few thousand every 3-5 years. Teachers do have a great benefits package though.

So what am I trying to say? It amazes me that I have to go to a 4 year college like everyone else and I?ll have to endure the low teachers pay while my peers will be making double my salary. The people that would make great teachers are driven out of the education field due to the low pay. For instance, my dads buddy was telling me that he has a cousin that graduated with her masters degree in education. She is a single mother with 2 children. She got a job last year as a 1st grade teacher at a public school in South Carolina. Her starting salary was $24,000 How the hell can you survive on this paltry salary in today?s society and especially when children are involved? It?s a damn shame because she left at the Christmas break and immediately got a job working with computers starting at $60,000 a year. The public schools in South Carolina lost another good teacher.

Now I know what most are thinking to themselves? Teachers get the summers off and leave at 3pm everyday. That?s not fully correct. For example, I had to teach a lesson on primary and secondary colors to kindergarteners. I spent $20 of my own money and 3+ hours working on this project. I made an interactive learning center, poems, worksheets and handouts, and the actual lesson plan. These activities take time to prepare. I loved setting up and constructing the activities. It was a lot of fun but imagine doing this 3-4 times a week? I only did one lesson and it took some time to complete. Of course, as time progresses and I get the experience I?ll spend less time on my lessons. Plus, I?ll be able to save my activities for future use so the time shaping my lesson will decrease. Summers also aren?t just a relaxing time for most teachers. There are some teachers that go back to college in the Summer and they take the recommended courses that their district say that they need to take. Some take on Summer jobs to supplement their incomes but why should they have to do this? Why should individuals with bachelor and master degrees have to take on a second job? Shouldn?t their main job be enough to support their lifestyle? Usually though this isn?t the case.

Maybe they are trying to live a lifestyle they can't afford?

 

[mchammer187]

Originally posted by: tec699

Originally posted by: ABitTooSpicy
In one of my internships, I was teaching computer classes to inner city kids and adults... It was seriously the most fun internship I ever had, it was more fun than my job now... I would love to go into teaching...
Except I started making what it would take a teacher about 10 years of experience to make, and I am only 1 year out of college...

Your starting salary was over $40,000?

i dont know of anyone of my friends that started at less than 40K
or took a job that paid less than 40K if they were offered less

if someone offered me 40K it would be a debateable on whether to take it or not
I just graduated this year

though almost all my friends have either science or engineering degrees
there is no way i would work this hard for BSEE and take a 30K job

i made almost 30K (if i worked full time) as a co-op no benefits though

teachers get paid so little because for the most part it is simply one of the easiest majors to graduate with
if this somehow changed than their salaries would be adjusted accordingly

 

[mchammer187]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
I agree.

What would I do about it? Make the president's salary as well as the salaries of all federal congressmen and women the average of all public employee salaries from post office workers, to policemen, to firemen, to military service personnel, etc.

i agree though not to the same extent

but for roughly 100K a year i can hardly call congressman "public servants"