Teachers pay is a disgrace.

[alphatarget1]

let me repeat: your 4 year degree isn't NEARLY comparable with an engineering/math/science degree. That's why I have so much respect for good math and science teachers but not the other fields.

How is teaching challenging compared to engineering? You teach the same sh!t over and over again, sure there might be kids that don't want to learn but it's NOTHING compared to complex engineering/science problems. My ex's dad teaches econ and he gives out tests on teacher's edition books, and he had his TAs/my ex to correct tests, how FREAKING HARD is that?

Believe it or not, I do want to make a difference one day when I get sick of engineering and become a math/physics teacher. I'm not going to be one of those incompetent ones that b!tch and moan for money when they are protected by corrupt unions and complain about pay.

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: JoeKing
And the only thanks they get comes is the forms or parents complaining, or admin breathing down their necks about test scores. Maybe if they're lucky a student might say how much they enjoy the class, or if they're younger the kids might give them a hug.... but a hug nowadays is out of the question for fear of sexual abuse.

I listed the panoply of thanks NJ teachers get in my first response to this thread.
Sorry nobody is buttering them up, but I've got news for you - nobody in any profession gets any thanks other than pissing and moaning from clients and management.

Originally posted by: 5LiterMustang
This is true, but other career paths generally offer advancement quicker. I think that was his point

What kind of advancement? They certainly get financial advancement quickly enough, regardless of actual abilities and performance. There's only so many principals, just as there are only so many vice presidents. The rest of us are just working stiffs.

Yeah.

Drs dont get thanks. They get sued.

Lawyers dont get thanks. They get slandered.

 

[JoeKing]

Jzero,
If that is the case then why aren't you a teacher? East coast unions I've heard are extermly powerful due to how long they've been around.

Digitalsm,
Yeah aren't we talking about teachers pay? How much do Doctors make again? And as for lawyers... who wants to thank Lawyers?

Just remeber teachers are the ones taking care of all of your children (and many of the posters in the thread I suspect). If the job is so easy and such a steal then why don't you become a teacher? How about you homeschool your child for a year then imagine doing that for 25 kids simultaniously.

No wonder kids have the attitudes about school today. It must rub off from the parents.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Originally posted by: JoeKing
Jzero,
If that is the case then why aren't you a teacher? East coast unions I've heard are extermly powerful due to how long they've been around.

Digitalsm,
Yeah aren't we talking about teachers pay? How much do Doctors make again? And as for lawyers... who wants to thank Lawyers?

Just remeber teachers are the ones taking care of all of your children (and many of the posters in the thread I suspect). If the job is so easy and such a steal then why don't you become a teacher? How about you homeschool your child for a year then imagine doing that for 25 kids simultaniously.

No wonder kids have the attitudes about school today. It must rub off from the parents.

I am not a teacher because I have no desire to teach. I would also suspect that most parents do not have the time to give their kids a thorough education and still hold a job to keep bread on the table. Like I mentioned before I am going to school to become a graphic designer and know full well that I will probably be making about the same amount of money as a teacher, maybe less. I don't expect anyone to come thanking me for my job, and I doubt very many people will appreciate the work that I do. That said, I am still looking to do graphics work because that is what I enjoy doing. Let's see: I will make less money, have no job security, and work all year round. Quit b!tching and be happy.

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: JoeKing
Jzero,
If that is the case then why aren't you a teacher? East coast unions I've heard are extermly powerful due to how long they've been around.

I have little interest in teaching, but I have already stated in the same post in which I listed all of the perks NJ teachers get that I HAVE been searching for a job in the NJ public ed system for some months now. With the exception of summers off, many support positions enjoy the same benefits the teachers enjoy - amazing benefits and retirment packages and absurd levels of job security, and decent pay to top it all off. I'm pretty happy where I am, but I'd take the education racket in a heartbeat.

Just remeber teachers are the ones taking care of all of your children (and many of the posters in the thread I suspect). If the job is so easy and such a steal then why don't you become a teacher? How about you homeschool your child for a year then imagine doing that for 25 kids simultaniously.

No wonder kids have the attitudes about school today. It must rub off from the parents.

Not everyone is saying it's easy or it's a steal, they're saying that they're tired of teachers pissing and moaning about their lot in life, because A) they got there by their own devices and B) it's a pretty damned good compensation package in the grand scheme of things. You may not get rich, but you certainly won't be worried about where your next meal is coming from or if you're going to get laid off next quarter.

All of my parents' friends are teachers. Guess who is retired at 55 while my parents are still working into their 60s? Cry me a river.

I'm glad my fiancee who is an aspiring history teacher doesn't have these absurd delusions of grandeur and sees her profession for what it is - comfortable security.

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: JoeKing
Jzero,
If that is the case then why aren't you a teacher? East coast unions I've heard are extermly powerful due to how long they've been around.

Digitalsm,
Yeah aren't we talking about teachers pay? How much do Doctors make again? And as for lawyers... who wants to thank Lawyers?

Just remeber teachers are the ones taking care of all of your children (and many of the posters in the thread I suspect). If the job is so easy and such a steal then why don't you become a teacher? How about you homeschool your child for a year then imagine doing that for 25 kids simultaniously.

No wonder kids have the attitudes about school today. It must rub off from the parents.

How many years do Drs go to school? 8? maybe more if the specialize. Then they work 100 hour weeks for chump change for several years, before they make "big bucks" which ranges from $80,000k to $250,000 bring home, after taxes and malpractice insurance).

How many years do Lawyers go to school? 7. Most have $60-$120k in debt. Most start out in the $60k or less range. Some $90k if they went to a law school ranked 12-20. $100k or more if they went to a top 12 law school, and work for a BigLaw firm, and work 80+ hours a week.

You have to be a fool if you believe high paid people in the business world work 40 hour weeks. If you want the "big bucks" in any career feild, you will be putting in long hours. Teachers do not put in long hours.

Also the bias you hold against lawyers are because of the Criminal Defense/Plantiff Trial Laywer Archtype, which isnt representitive of the whole legal community.

 

[thomsbrain]

Originally posted by: Mwilding
They pay enough to get enough teachers...

no, actually, they don't. that's why so many teachers these days don't have their credentials yet.

 

[5LiterMustang]

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: JoeKing
Jzero,
If that is the case then why aren't you a teacher? East coast unions I've heard are extermly powerful due to how long they've been around.

Digitalsm,
Yeah aren't we talking about teachers pay? How much do Doctors make again? And as for lawyers... who wants to thank Lawyers?

Just remeber teachers are the ones taking care of all of your children (and many of the posters in the thread I suspect). If the job is so easy and such a steal then why don't you become a teacher? How about you homeschool your child for a year then imagine doing that for 25 kids simultaniously.

No wonder kids have the attitudes about school today. It must rub off from the parents.

How many years do Drs go to school? 8? maybe more if the specialize. Then they work 100 hour weeks for chump change for several years, before they make "big bucks" which ranges from $80,000k to $250,000 bring home, after taxes and malpractice insurance).

How many years do Lawyers go to school? 7. Most have $60-$120k in debt. Most start out in the $60k or less range. Some $90k if they went to a law school ranked 12-20. $100k or more if they went to a top 12 law school, and work for a BigLaw firm, and work 80+ hours a week.

You have to be a fool if you believe high paid people in the business world work 40 hour weeks. If you want the "big bucks" in any career feild, you will be putting in long hours. Teachers do not put in long hours.

Also the bias you hold against lawyers are because of the Criminal Defense/Plantiff Trial Laywer Archtype, which isnt representitive of the whole legal community.

Thats a good post and unfortunately with a ridiculous tax system and malpractice insurance sky rocketing, if a dr goes into family practice they'll only take home between 40 and 60k a year at the start. 80 and even 100k is possible but very rare.

 

[JoeKing]

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: JoeKing
Jzero,
If that is the case then why aren't you a teacher? East coast unions I've heard are extermly powerful due to how long they've been around.

Digitalsm,
Yeah aren't we talking about teachers pay? How much do Doctors make again? And as for lawyers... who wants to thank Lawyers?

Just remeber teachers are the ones taking care of all of your children (and many of the posters in the thread I suspect). If the job is so easy and such a steal then why don't you become a teacher? How about you homeschool your child for a year then imagine doing that for 25 kids simultaniously.

No wonder kids have the attitudes about school today. It must rub off from the parents.

How many years do Drs go to school? 8? maybe more if the specialize. Then they work 100 hour weeks for chump change for several years, before they make "big bucks" which ranges from $80,000k to $250,000 bring home, after taxes and malpractice insurance).

How many years do Lawyers go to school? 7. Most have $60-$120k in debt. Most start out in the $60k or less range. Some $90k if they went to a law school ranked 12-20. $100k or more if they went to a top 12 law school, and work for a BigLaw firm, and work 80+ hours a week.

You have to be a fool if you believe high paid people in the business world work 40 hour weeks. If you want the "big bucks" in any career feild, you will be putting in long hours. Teachers do not put in long hours.

Also the bias you hold against lawyers are because of the Criminal Defense/Plantiff Trial Laywer Archtype, which isnt representitive of the whole legal community.

And the bias you hold against teachers are because of the lazy and incompetent, which isn't representitive of the whole educational community.

For a teacher to reach the highest bracket of payment they need a masters which require at least two more years. And then they can expect perhaps $65k-$75k a year.


Jzero,
I don't have any "absurd delusions of grandeur" with the teaching profession. My only argument throughout this thread is that teachers are responsible for the education of your children. If you do not think this is important, if you think education is a farce, a job for security, well maybe you shouldn't have children and your fiancee should write a book instead of educate kids.

Education is what shapes our future generations, it's one major hand that will mold the future of our nation. And as such our resources, our time, our empathy should be directed to this field and the people that are the fingers that mold the clay that is our children.

Our current educational system is far from perfect, but its the best we've got. But how can in get better if the parents don't do their part, don't care?

btw I'm not a teacher, but I've seen the system on both sides as a teacher and a student. I don't want to be a teacher because of all the BS they have to put up with.

 

[Chaotic42]

Teacher pay is low because teacher performance is low. I think that's because teachers' hands are tied when they get the job.

We need to bring competition and discipline to the schools, increase teacher pay, and increase teacher requirements.

 

[nageov3t]

being a decent teacher is a lot easier than being a decent engineer.

but being a great teacher is far harder than being a great engineer.

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: JoeKing
For a teacher to reach the highest bracket of payment they need a masters which require at least two more years. And then they can expect perhaps $65k-$75k a year.

Is this supposed to support your argument? $65k a year?

Jzero,
I don't have any "absurd delusions of grandeur" with the teaching profession. My only argument throughout this thread is that teachers are responsible for the education of your children. If you do not think this is important, if you think education is a farce, a job for security, well maybe you shouldn't have children and your fiancee should write a book instead of educate kids.

No, you obviously do have absurd delusions of grandeur.
I have stated clearly why teachers are adequately paid. You have INVENTED that idea that I think "education is a farce, a job for security," to support your argument. I never stated that once during any of these posts, not even words remotely to that effect. I have said over and over and over that teachers get paid quite adequately for what they do. Not overpaid, definitely not underpaid. If you like to put words in people's mouths, perhaps it's YOU that shouldn't have children :roll::roll::roll:

What do you think the teachers should get, then? $100k? Who will pay for it? Especially in NJ where we already have high taxes?

<snip emotional but off-topic ramble>
Will somebody think of the children? Stop appealing to emotion.
The world lasted how long without the current public education system and the teachers it has created? Education is important, but the educators aren't actually holding the world together. More delusions of grandeur.

btw I'm not a teacher, but I've seen the system on both sides as a teacher and a student. I don't want to be a teacher because of all the BS they have to put up with.

And what, praytell, BS is that?
Bitchy parents that don't care how hard you're trying? Everyone else has bitchy clients.
Disconnected administrations that have no understanding of your needs? Everyone else has that, too.
Getting stuck working after-hours on things that need to get done? Check.

So what else? Paperwork? Politics? Nepotism?

Seems to me you get the same BS no matter what field you work in - but if you're a teacher you get a boatload of pros to outweigh those cons, even if they don't all come with Andrew Jackson's face printed right on them.

Tell me what you think a reasonable salary and benefits package would be for a teacher.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: JoeKing

Originally posted by: Ornery
"Remeber teachers do no get things like christmas bonuses like many other professions do..."

Remember, teachers only work < 200 days per year!

And the only thanks they get comes is the forms or parents complaining, or admin breathing down their necks about test scores. Maybe if they're lucky a student might say how much they enjoy the class, or if they're younger the kids might give them a hug.... but a hug nowadays is out of the question for fear of sexual abuse.

Oh well if you don't think teachers are that important or their job are so easy, than by all means home school your child. They could use less ungrateful parents in the system anyway.

The point is, anyone who goes into teaching knows about this stuff already....so what are you doing bitching about it?
That's like taking a hiking trip to the Alps and bitching about it being cold.

 

[cHeeZeFacTory]

Originally posted by: Isshinryu
And doctors go to school for 8 years, start off making an avg. of 30K for 3 years, end up making the same, if not less than, alot of people who have a four year business degree, while working 80+ hours a week. Life's not fair. If the money is such a deterent, don't do it.

I don't know what kind of MD's are u talking about, but many of my relatives children w/ MD's started out making atleast $50/hr here in So Cal.

 

[ggavinmoss]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
let me repeat: your 4 year degree isn't NEARLY comparable with an engineering/math/science degree. That's why I have so much respect for good math and science teachers but not the other fields.

How is teaching challenging compared to engineering? You teach the same sh!t over and over again, sure there might be kids that don't want to learn but it's NOTHING compared to complex engineering/science problems. My ex's dad teaches econ and he gives out tests on teacher's edition books, and he had his TAs/my ex to correct tests, how FREAKING HARD is that?

Believe it or not, I do want to make a difference one day when I get sick of engineering and become a math/physics teacher. I'm not going to be one of those incompetent ones that b!tch and moan for money when they are protected by corrupt unions and complain about pay.

Have you ever considered that maybe your ex's dad isn't a good teacher?

I agree the unions are part of the problem, but it is a non-trivial problem to evaluate a teacher when the effects of that teacher's tutelage may not be directly seen, and without driving towards more standardized tests...

-geoff

 

[Mookow]

Teachers pay is a disgrace.

You want to know who's pay is truly a disgrace? Check out what an E-1 in Iraq is making.

JMO, obviously.

 

[5LiterMustang]

Originally posted by: Mookow

Teachers pay is a disgrace.

You want to know who's pay is truly a disgrace? Check out what an E-1 in Iraq is making.

JMO, obviously.

Very true, military = more underpaid then anyone else, its truly sickening in my opinion.

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: cHeeZeFacTory

Originally posted by: Isshinryu
And doctors go to school for 8 years, start off making an avg. of 30K for 3 years, end up making the same, if not less than, alot of people who have a four year business degree, while working 80+ hours a week. Life's not fair. If the money is such a deterent, don't do it.

I don't know what kind of MD's are u talking about, but many of my relatives children w/ MD's started out making atleast $50/hr here in So Cal.

Theres a little thing called residencies, some of which last 3 years, others 5 depending on the field you go into, I do believe some highly specialized fields in neurosurgery have longer residency requirements.

To be an MD, you do undergrad for 4 years, med school for 4 years, then you have to do a residency for 3-5 years, then and only then are you a practicing MD. While in residency hours are long, and pay is low.

 

[tec699]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
let me repeat: your 4 year degree isn't NEARLY comparable with an engineering/math/science degree. That's why I have so much respect for good math and science teachers but not the other fields.

How is teaching challenging compared to engineering? You teach the same sh!t over and over again, sure there might be kids that don't want to learn but it's NOTHING compared to complex engineering/science problems. My ex's dad teaches econ and he gives out tests on teacher's edition books, and he had his TAs/my ex to correct tests, how FREAKING HARD is that?

Believe it or not, I do want to make a difference one day when I get sick of engineering and become a math/physics teacher. I'm not going to be one of those incompetent ones that b!tch and moan for money when they are protected by corrupt unions and complain about pay.

Another person who doesn't know what he's talking about and the ignorance amazes me. Have you ever taught in a public school before? If the answer is no then please keep quiet. You can't even compare engineering and teaching. Two totally different fields.

Also, you say that you have a lack of respect for other fields. I would love to put you in a room with special ed students who are behaviorally and emotionally disturbed. I know for a fact that you wouldn't last 1 week. Those students would have you literally in tears and they would have you running in circles. If getting told to go f*ck yourself every 5 minutes sounds like fun then come on in! That's a rough crowd.

Your missing the point. Teaching is more than academics as it's also classroom management. You can have a degree from Harvard but if you don't have the students respect and don't know how to get your point across then your going to be a horrible educator. There are some smart individuals that think teaching is easy. I'm talking A+ students and guess what? They can't last for more then a few months because thier classroom management skills are severly lacking.

 

[JoeKing]

Originally posted by: Jzero
I have stated clearly why teachers are adequately paid. You have INVENTED that idea that I think "education is a farce, a job for security," to support your argument. I never stated that once during any of these posts, not even words remotely to that effect. I have said over and over and over that teachers get paid quite adequately for what they do. Not overpaid, definitely not underpaid. If you like to put words in people's mouths, perhaps it's YOU that shouldn't have children

defintion of racket : an illegal enterprise (such as extortion or fraud or drug peddling or prostitution) carried on for profit

Originally posted by: Jzero
-I know the NJ teaching racket pretty well
-Virtually guaranteed job security
-Honestly, I've been searching for jobs in the NJ public school system because it's such a damn good racket.
-I'd take the education racket in a heartbeat.
- you certainly won't be worried about where your next meal is coming from or if you're going to get laid off next quarter.
-I'm glad my fiancee who is an aspiring history teacher doesn't have these absurd delusions of grandeur and sees her profession for what it is - comfortable security.
-The world lasted how long without the current public education system and the teachers it has created? Education is important, but the educators aren't actually holding the world together. More delusions of grandeur.

And you do make a point Jzero, throughout all of the ages of man.... barring the upper class of Egypt, Greece, Rome, and China, education has not been important at all. Leave the edumacation stuff to the elite and let the peons suffer huh? Screw it lets follow your lead and regress completly to barbarians. Then Jzero the only job security you have to worry about is hunting for food, and someone stealing your woman.

And no educators don't hold the world together (I never said they did, talk about putting words into a persons mouth). It's the politicians and world leaders that shape the world, good thing they never went to school and the information just magically appeared in their minds. Oh and if you really need it to recognize my sarcasim :roll:

And my reference to the 65K is to a teacher that has maxed out every possible aspect of their career, has gone back to school numerous times for a masters, and has worked for two decades in the field.

As for the BS I'm talking about. It's people like you that is the BS I'm talking about that stopped me from pursuing education as a profession. Those that think education is a racket and unimportant.

 

[hysperion]

Where I live they just built a 44million dollar school for 1,200 students.......and I don't live in a rich area, it's actually a pretty sickening waste of money. Teachers are overpayed IMHO...working 185 days a year for 40-70g's....most of my high school teachers did nothing other then put up slides that they obviously used year after year and then give tests which they have student aides correct......Anyone can be a gradeschool or high school teacher so why do you think they should be paid more then anyone else?

***I say we take some of the money we're overpaying to teachers and give it to the soldier's fighting in Iraq...lower ranking soldiers E1-E4's are making between 24-36k all while being shot at/killed and living in bad conditions in a sand castle....and you have the nerve to complain about income you KNEW teachers made when you started? Truly pathetic. ***

 

[Dragnov]

Originally posted by: hysperion***I say we take some of the money we're overpaying to teachers and give it to the soldier's fighting in Iraq...lower ranking soldiers E1-E4's are making between 24-36k all while being shot at/killed and living in bad conditions in a sand castle....and you have the nerve to complain about income you KNEW teachers made when you started? Truly pathetic. ***

But soldiers joined voluntarily and knew what they were getting into. Its supply and demand, their wages are what the market dictates. Not to mention, how often are they actually in combat situation during their entire time as a soldier? A few years? Hey anyone can be a soldier. :roll:

 

[RabidMongoose]

Teachers are paid well for their work. They get massive vacation time during the summer, although they may need to take a class or workshop at times. They also get nice vacations throughout the school year. There's more job security than many other jobs. Less job performance stress than many other jobs. They get fantastic retirement/pension plans.

Why are they complaining about such a nice job? Plenty of jobs have their negative aspects...

 

[bleeb]

Originally posted by: aves2k
Wait for it...

 

[mithrandir2001]

Teachers are more than adequately paid in my district (suburban Philadelphia). We had a strike last year because they didn't want their medical benefits touched. Get with the program people! Private employers are all hitting up workers for medical....that's just the current state of affairs. It should be no different with taxpayer-funded public employees like schoolteachers. Oh, and the pay isn't bad either: starting salary is a ho-hum $38K but it takes only 15 years of service to max out at nearly $90K. That's not bad for a job with summers off, clean safe working environment, paid year-long sabaticals, public pension, generous medical benefits (including coverage during retirement) and a secure job for life.