Teams behaving badly: Cowboys and Redskins forced to give up salary cap space

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Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,215
11
81
Vague warnings without explicit rules backing them aside, I fail to see how you can punish a team for not abiding by the cap in an uncapped year. As others have said - its called an uncapped year for a reason. Does the lack of a salary cap lead to an unfair climate for the wealthier teams? Absolutely - this is part of why the NFL has a salary cap. However, if you opt out of your CBA and it leads to there not being a salary cap....well, you should deal with the consequences.
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,215
11
81
Not to mention, the league office has to approve all contracts and team transactions. If the Cowboys and Redskins were breaking these unwritten rules, the league could have made them explicit by denying the transaction.
 

eits

Lifer
Jun 4, 2005
25,206
3
81
www.integratedssr.com

fuck this guy.

we should oust him. he's been an embarrassment. someone needs to explain to him that we don't WANT to be like the fucking cowboys. we never have!

ever since douche snider took over the team, we've been horrible and he keeps trying to act like jerry jones for some fucking reason. ugh... i hate this dude.
 

Elganja

Platinum Member
May 21, 2007
2,143
24
81
Not to mention, the league office has to approve all contracts and team transactions. If the Cowboys and Redskins were breaking these unwritten rules, the league could have made them explicit by denying the transaction.

that's the shit that pisses me off... some serious bullshit going on
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,948
31
91
Not to mention, the league office has to approve all contracts and team transactions. If the Cowboys and Redskins were breaking these unwritten rules, the league could have made them explicit by denying the transaction.

They're responsible for reviewing on an individual basis but are they also responsible for completely understanding how each team's transaction is going to affect that team in terms of the big picture for the current and future years? Doubtful.

The Cowboys and Redskins decided to try to skirt these unwritten rules, probably assuming that since they're the Cowboys/Redskins they would be able to get away with it. Too bad.
 
May 13, 2009
12,333
612
126
Is it any surprise that the two teams (cowboys, redskins) that did this are also two of the worst run organizations in the league? It's no coincidence these two teams are jokes of the nfl.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,929
142
106
The curse of Albert Haynesworth continues...

The timing of this news isn't a coincidence either, the NFL is showing they are not to be f'd with by cooking the books (i.e. swapping money from the back end of a deal to the front to gain an advantage).

I do think it's shtty that the NFL sprung this on them now, they could have at least warned them before the Skins traded the farm for RGIII. Now they're screwed, hope RGIII enjoys getting sacked a lot and hope he has a high pain threshold.
 

Gibsons

Lifer
Aug 14, 2001
12,530
35
91
I wonder if the players union is going to say something about this? It's basically a cut in salaries. Or maybe both teams will still be above the 'floor.'
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,215
11
81
I wonder if the players union is going to say something about this? It's basically a cut in salaries. Or maybe both teams will still be above the 'floor.'

I imagine the Cowboys and Redskins reps will not be happy - but the others will, because that salary cap penalty is being distributed to the other teams (other than Oakland and New Orleans). So I doubt the union will be all that unified...

They're responsible for reviewing on an individual basis but are they also responsible for completely understanding how each team's transaction is going to affect that team in terms of the big picture for the current and future years? Doubtful.

The Cowboys and Redskins decided to try to skirt these unwritten rules, probably assuming that since they're the Cowboys/Redskins they would be able to get away with it. Too bad.

One of the reasons the league reviews contract deals is to ensure they conform with league rules and salary cap procedures. If these deals were in violation, they should have voiced that opinion then.

As for the unwritten rules, there's a reason that a multi-billion dollar industry like the NFL has lots of very explicit, written, verbose rules and procedures. I believe it was Mike Florio (who I normally don't like very much) that pointed out that the owners having backdoor agreements not to break the non-existent salary cap essentially amounts to collusion - which is not allowed.
 

Gibsons

Lifer
Aug 14, 2001
12,530
35
91
I imagine the Cowboys and Redskins reps will not be happy - but the others will, because that salary cap penalty is being distributed to the other teams (other than Oakland and New Orleans). So I doubt the union will be all that unified...
But maybe you're a free agent (or will be next year) and now there are two fewer teams to bid competitively for your services.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
I believe it was Mike Florio (who I normally don't like very much) that pointed out that the owners having backdoor agreements not to break the non-existent salary cap essentially amounts to collusion - which is not allowed.

Exactly. I can't believe no one has been talking about this angle. It is absolutely collusion.
 

mvbighead

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2009
3,793
1
81
But maybe you're a free agent (or will be next year) and now there are two fewer teams to bid competitively for your services.

And there are 28 teams with a little more money to spend on your services.

Meh, I don't see what the big deal is. I am perfectly fine with what they are doing to them, as it is merely making the cap effectively what it should have been.

They're keeping the league, from a monetary standpoint, competitive. That won't necessarily mean that all teams are equal in talent. But no team shall have a financial benefit over another. IE - You don't have the Yankees with a 200 million dollar payroll, and the Athletics with a 25 million dollar pay roll.

In this case, while there may not have been cap rules, it's not much different than me deciding to speed because the speed limit sign has been knocked down. "Gee officer, I didn't see a sign, so I just assumed it was 80." They were warned, and they deliberately tried to abuse the capless year to give themselves a way to circumvent the cap. As what they did now affects their cap going forward, I can see how punishment is justified.

Basically, you have a Miles Austin contract:

9/9/2010: Signed a seven-year, $57.168 million contract. The cap-conscious deal contains $18 million guaranteed -- no signing bonus but all of Austin's whopping $17.078 million first-year base salary. 2012: $1.15 million, 2013: $6.732 million, 2014: $5.5 million, 2015: $6.888 million, 2016: $11.38 million, 2017: Free Agent

A 57 million dollar deal, and 17.078 of it was paid in salary in the uncapped year. No signing bonus means that the guaranteed 18 million does not affect the cap in the later years. So instead of a 9 million or so cap hit for 2013, they'd have whatever number is listed above.

In any case, they're trying to abuse the situation which they were told not to do. Now that the commissioner is back in control, he can remedy the problem to ensure that the cap is properly accounted for, and the competitive balance remains.
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,215
11
81
In this case, while there may not have been cap rules, it's not much different than me deciding to speed because the speed limit sign has been knocked down. "Gee officer, I didn't see a sign, so I just assumed it was 80." They were warned, and they deliberately tried to abuse the capless year to give themselves a way to circumvent the cap. As what they did now affects their cap going forward, I can see how punishment is justified.

Actually, it would be more akin to a mall cop warning you that if you speed on the autobahn, he will pull you over for it. There was no salary cap in 2010. They called it "an uncapped year" over and over again for a reason.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,606
166
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
The Redskins won't win another Superbowl until after they change the name of the stadium back to Jack Kent Cooke Stadium (named after the guy who PAID for it, rather than a company giving the greedy Snyder money for the naming rights.)

Anyway, from what I understand, I don't see that this would affect the Redskins that badly. Effectively it was this (with fictitious numbers and only two players):

Player A: $5m a year for 2 years
Player B: $10m a year for 2 years.
Cap = $15m per year

Uncapped year, so instead, they said,
"Hey, let's pay player A $10m over 2 years: 9/1, and player B $20m over 2 years: 15/5"
So, it became $24m during the uncapped year, with $6m to pay during the year when they're back to a 15m cap. That's where they're at now, and the NFL just said, "oh no you don't! We're lowering your cap to $6m.

Though, (using my fictitious numbers), the question is, did the NFL penalize them by saying "your new cap is $6m" yielding a break even, "your new cap is $10m" greatly reducing their total benefit of gaming the system (though still beneficial overall), or "your new cap is $4m" penalizing them.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
In this case, while there may not have been cap rules, it's not much different than me deciding to speed because the speed limit sign has been knocked down. "Gee officer, I didn't see a sign, so I just assumed it was 80." They were warned, and they deliberately tried to abuse the capless year to give themselves a way to circumvent the cap. As what they did now affects their cap going forward, I can see how punishment is justified.

Actually, there are laws about speed if the speed limit is not marked. In residential areas, it is 25 MPH. On state roads and interstates, it's 50MPH (New Jersey State law).

An analogous situation is if the speed limit laws expired on Jan 1, 2011, and the governor said "even though there are no laws, if you drive too fase, we will give you a ticket"

Total bullshit.
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,215
11
81
Actually, there are laws about speed if the speed limit is not marked. In residential areas, it is 25 MPH. On state roads and interstates, it's 50MPH (New Jersey State law).

An analogous situation is if the speed limit laws expired on Jan 1, 2011, and the governor said "even though there are no laws, if you drive too fase, we will give you a ticket"

Total bullshit.

Montana didn't have a speed limit starting in 1996, when the national speed limit was removed. What if, in 1999 when they enacted the speed limit again, the governor said "Not only are we adding a speed limit again, if we have evidence that you sped from 1996-1999, you're getting a ticket!!" Wouldn't make much sense, would it?
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,929
142
106
And there are 28 teams with a little more money to spend on your services.

Meh, I don't see what the big deal is. I am perfectly fine with what they are doing to them, as it is merely making the cap effectively what it should have been.

They're keeping the league, from a monetary standpoint, competitive. That won't necessarily mean that all teams are equal in talent. But no team shall have a financial benefit over another. IE - You don't have the Yankees with a 200 million dollar payroll, and the Athletics with a 25 million dollar pay roll.

In this case, while there may not have been cap rules, it's not much different than me deciding to speed because the speed limit sign has been knocked down. "Gee officer, I didn't see a sign, so I just assumed it was 80." They were warned, and they deliberately tried to abuse the capless year to give themselves a way to circumvent the cap. As what they did now affects their cap going forward, I can see how punishment is justified.

Basically, you have a Miles Austin contract:

9/9/2010: Signed a seven-year, $57.168 million contract. The cap-conscious deal contains $18 million guaranteed -- no signing bonus but all of Austin's whopping $17.078 million first-year base salary. 2012: $1.15 million, 2013: $6.732 million, 2014: $5.5 million, 2015: $6.888 million, 2016: $11.38 million, 2017: Free Agent

A 57 million dollar deal, and 17.078 of it was paid in salary in the uncapped year. No signing bonus means that the guaranteed 18 million does not affect the cap in the later years. So instead of a 9 million or so cap hit for 2013, they'd have whatever number is listed above.

In any case, they're trying to abuse the situation which they were told not to do. Now that the commissioner is back in control, he can remedy the problem to ensure that the cap is properly accounted for, and the competitive balance remains.

Austin is a good example, and so is Haynesworth. However, if the NFL is mad then why not just have a cap all of the time? What purpose does a capless year serve?
 

eits

Lifer
Jun 4, 2005
25,206
3
81
www.integratedssr.com
The Redskins won't win another Superbowl until after they change the name of the stadium back to Jack Kent Cooke Stadium (named after the guy who PAID for it, rather than a company giving the greedy Snyder money for the naming rights.)

hear hear!

his son should have taken over...
 

Doboji

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
7,912
0
76
Still... it was an UNCAPPED YEAR. Goodell had no right to make such threats. Again, this is Goodell arbitrarily and unilaterally making rash decisions.



Never formally warned, as there was no contract nor no written mandate agreed to by the owners that teams could not go over cap. Re: Goodell is a power-hungry idiot.

In actuality those threats are undeniable proof of collusion. Either there's a negotiated salary cap or not.
 

mvbighead

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2009
3,793
1
81
Austin is a good example, and so is Haynesworth. However, if the NFL is mad then why not just have a cap all of the time? What purpose does a capless year serve?

There was no agreement on the current CBA, so that was the end result. The cap was included as part of the CBA.

In any case, the capless year was more a creature of the lack of resolution between the players and the owners. The lockout then cause the insistence that a CBA had to be agreed upon for further play.

In any case, a new CBA was simply a matter of an agreement being reached. It was not a matter of if, but when.

And, as the commissioner can punish players for on field conduct, he can also do the same to teams. The league, however, insisted that the teams not circumvent the traditional cap methodology.

As it relates to current years, punishment is easily understandable. You look at Austin's deal, and instead of installing any sort of bonus, they simply arranged to give him a salary equal to what his bonus was, which allowed them to, in effect, give him a bonus without giving him a bonus. While they did this in an uncapped year, it has an effect on the capped years that were to come.

The only thing the NFL (Roger Goodell) did was adjust their salary caps accordingly to account for what those teams did in the uncapped year. Basically, instead of Austin's 18 million getting written off the books in 2011, they made the Cowboys account for 10 of it.

And the Redskins... yeesh. They cleared a bunch of signing bonuses and all sorts of other madness in the uncapped year. They got caught. It ain't like he's taking money away from them. He just isn't giving them the extra 36 that they thought they'd be getting by doing what they did.
 
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