TechPowerup - Nvidia Kepler GK104 PCB Drawings and power connector pics

[frostedflakes]

According to TPU this is the reference PCB, not an engineering sample.

 

[railven]

Stupid PCI-E plug arrangement.

Anyone who thinks GK104 is nv's highend is delusional. Why would they stop making 500mm2 die's when it's served them so well? We can see that the 7970 is not the best that AMD can do and GK104 is not the best nvidia can do. I expect GK104 to compete with 7950. and GK100/110 to compete with The 8970. Cause it's coming on Q3 and AMD doesn't have a refresh ready, I'll very surprised.

Wait...you just contradicted yourself. If the GK100/110 is designed to compete with a completely different generation, than wouldn't that make the GK104 "nv's highend" relative to what's out on the market now?

Guys, you do know not all corporate strategies are set in stone? Have some flexibility. GK100 might be so top dog, they don't need it to fight AMD 7 series. Why unload your full load when your "mid-range" offerings are more than enough? These guys are trying to make money off us.

 

[Grooveriding]

I am not ruling out GK104 @ $399-449. At those prices, it still would be competitive with the HD7950. However, all that means is their real high end card just might be a $650 monster. If GK104 is NV's new high-end for this entire generation, I will be hugely disappointed. But why would NV's high-end chip be only a 256-bit card with 350mm^2 die? I know you don't really believe that for a second

There is no way this is the best they have got, as I said before, I don't think it will be faster than a 7970 taken at an average performance level across all games. It had better not be their best, I am planning on getting two of the 500die monsters when they come out.

I think this is going to be touted as a high end card though, 670ti moniker, tri-sli capable, competitive against 7970. They are not going to put out a card that can not at least be called competitive, and not just in price. Also this is nvidia, we know they have a history of pricing as high as they can.

It will be a nice card, probably $400 and I think it will have to have some paired down versions that sell cheaper, at least one or two. They will need to contend with 7870/7850 which are out soon. I think part of how they are using its position is a stop-gap for the delay on GK110 and they'll use it to put them in the current area of performance in the high end 28nm. Also the 7990 is out soon and is rumoured to be $850. I can see nvidia slapping two of these together and calling it a 690 or whatever and competing there. They won't have the heat/power/explosion issues the 590 had on 40nm with a couple of these small dies. They can also use that card to look like they are present at the high end giving them time to do whatever it is that is being done to make GK110 a reality.

They're going to want a slice of those $450 & $550 MSRP cards AMD has been selling and the margins that go with them. I could see them just pulling a fermi. Put these out as 670/680 and release GK110 in the fall/winter as 780, really that sounds the most likely to me. They can sell these for a high price and then sell the new card late this year for a high price. High prices through out.

 

[blackened23]

I don't think so. 256-bit for a high-end card with 340-350 mm^2 die size from NV? Not buying it. Unless NV had a complete turnaround of strategy, it will have a 450-500mm^2 GPU to follow, even if it means Q3 2012.

Most HD7970s VRAM runs out at 7000mhz. That means to provide some room for higher yields, at most the shipping VRAM speeds of a modern card are likely to be 6700mhz. Let's assume NV went out all and put 6700mhz VRAM (doubtful). @ 256-bit that's only 214GB of memory bandwidth. That's barely better than GTX580 and is a paltry improvement for a new high-end chip over their previous high-end GTX580.

There is no way GK104 is Big Kepler. It's specs are in-line with NV's new upper-mid-range card: Similar or higher performance than previous high-end with lower power consumption.

I think people are just confused because HD7900 brought such a small performance increase at stock speeds that they can't grasp that GTX580/HD7950 level of performance is what next generation upper-mid-range should be in the first place. GTX460 was a $229 card and it smacked a GTX285 all over the place in modern games. GTX470 @ $350 handily beat the GTX285.

I think NV initially meant for GK104 to be aGTX660Ti, but given what AMD brought to the table, NV can easily position it as a GTX670Ti now.

The answer to this is obvious. GK104 is considered their new high end because GK110/112 IS NOT DONE. It just taped out and we don't even know if its ES status yet. We know that Fermi couldn't even make it to ES status after tape out because their design was flawed.

Unless you consider vaporware high end? If we're using the vaporware metric, we can say sea islands is AMD's highend. See how ridiculous that is? Give me a break. You can't call something that isn't released and is currently vaporware -- vaporware that isn't even in ES status - a high end part.

 

[blackened23]

They like the high pricing scheme. I can't for the life of me figure it out.

Seriously, take some classes on economics sometime and then you'll figure it out :thumbsup:

 

[railven]

I'm not sure if I posted this here, or somewhere else, but I was adding to what someone else said:

It is very possibly nVidia is switching to two sectors - gaming and professional. They can use the small die solution to cover 90% of their gaming audience, low cost to them, competitive performance, and still be kings.

Then have a giant GPU on the side, give it the flagship works and sell it for a stupid price. This same die can power their professional offerings.

Just an idea. Or they can really be struggling with 28nm and this is all they got? who knows.

Where are my shroud pics!?

 

[RussianSensation]

Woah, what? If that bold applies then it should have applied to GTX 4/GTX5 series.

GTX4xx and 5xx is the same generation. GTX570 and GTX580 should really be called GTX475 and 485. Splitting them into 2 separate generations when the latter 2 are refreshes makes no sense.

It does apply. GTX460 and GTX560Ti are mid-range Fermi generation. GTX480 is a high-end card. The names themselves are almost meaningless. You gotta look at the specs. 256-bit card with 340-350mm^2 die size is not high-end for NV.

If they launch a GTX 780 - that will be their flagship card for that generation, and if they launch this card as GTX 680 - that would be their flagship card for this generation.

No. That's just playing with naming schemes. They can call Big K GTX7950xxxExtreme. It's still from "28nm Kepler generation." NV might name Big K GTX690, GTX780, we don't know. But launching GK104 first doesn't automatically mean it's NV's new high-end from 28nm Kepler generation. It would be no different than if NV launched GTX460 and GTX470 first and waited 9 months to launch a full blown GTX480 with 512SPs and called it a GTX580. GTX470 would still not be considered the high-end of the 40nm Fermi generation. It would just mean NV decided to re-spin its intended 480 high-end into a GTX580. But GTX580 is still based on the same architecture and design as the 480. So it's the same generation.

GTX4xx/GTX5xx is even less of a generation than the 'half-generation' of X1800XT --> X1900XT was. X1800 to X1900 is still the same generation, however, but the later card was much faster and came just a bit later as a "refresh" to X1800XT series.

Remember 7800GTX 256mb and the monster 7800GTX 512mb?

NV called them both 7800GTX, but the performance difference was very large.

We can't rely on names alone to assume performance. We have to look at the specs.

GK104 is still ways away. The 256-bit memory bus and only 340-350mm^2 die size is a dead giveaway to me that it's definitely not the high-end Kepler card though. Like you said, GK104 can be called GTX680 and GTX690 will become NV's new high-end - just a shift of names.

Arguing just because this is the GK104 means nothing, haven't you guys learned that yet?

Arguing if GK104 is called GTX660Ti, GTX670Ti or GTX680 doesn't change the fact that a 256-bit 340-350mm^2 die size card. That does not align with NV's current strategy of a big die size high-end GPU. Unless their strategy changed, GK104 is not their highest-end single-GPU 28nm Kepler part.

 

[f1sherman]

Looks like AMD has been caught off-quard on perf/mm2.

If that is true they can really go home, make some APUs or whatnot...

because Nvidia branding + their marketing machine + infinite chip redesigns down the line, will devour them this round.

 

[railven]

Before I get into this, I think we're both looking at it through different eyes, me more so as a consumer. Just pointing this out.

GTX4xx and 5xx is the same generation. GTX570 and GTX580 should really be called GTX475 and 485. Splitting them into 2 separate generations when the latter 2 are refreshes makes no sense.

I agree, but that is exactly what nVidia (and AMD did) essentially with their follow ups to GTX4-series and HD 5K series. However, when someone is shopping you don't tell them "they are from the same generation."

You also don't call the GTX 480 the second fastest in the line up - that's hindsight AFTER GTX 580 launched. When GTX 480 launched it was the flagship, for the "40nm" generation as you'd put it. But when GTX 480 came out, GTX 480 was now 2nd fastest, yet still flagship for it's generation.

It does apply. GTX460 and GTX560Ti are mid-range Fermi generation. GTX480 is a high-end card. The names themselves are almost meaningless. You gotta look at the specs. 256-bit card with 340-350mm^2 die size is not high-end for NV.

Again, this is why I say go by pricing - name/specs, they can change easily. Look at the GTX 460 Green Edition. That card was barely mid-range, yet it carried that name and sold at similar prices.

Because consumers go by name, that's all they see. "GTX 480 cost $500, I expect GTX 580 to cost similar or more" and so forth for GTX 680. They won't know if GTX 680 is driven by a top tier chip or a "mid-range" chip. ONly we know that, and then we sit here and play Forum CEOs and start explaining how someone is wrong. The companies set the names and the prices and regardless what we say - it doesn't change that.

A GTX 680 based on off GK104 is possible, and it could possibly beat HD 7970 (even if marginally) and command a $550+ price. The market's would agree based solely on name. Would you guys still call it a "mid-range" part?

No. That's just playing with naming schemes. They can call Big K GTX7950xxxExtreme. It's still from "28nm Kepler generation."

That's no different than X1800XT or X1950XT. Same generation. Just like GeForce 7 generation is everything from 7800 to 7900GTX.

You're right, those are same generations even in name. A traditional refresh. But if you haven't noticed - that concept flew out the window. The refreshes we saw this generation had higher tier names - ie a new generation.

Arguing if GK104 is called GTX660Ti, GTX670Ti or GTX680 doesn't change the fact that a 256-bit 340-350mm^2 die size does not realistically align with NV's current strategy of a big die size high-end GPU. Unless their strategy changes, GK104 is not their highest-end single-GPU 28nm Kepler part.

Bingo, doesn't align iwith NV's current strategy. Guess what, we argued something similar when Barts XT got announced as HD 68xx. Things change.

It seems people here can't grasp beyond what they know. And, no I'm not saying anything I claim is true/factual. Yet, I'm not being closed minded to the fact that these companies can, and will, screw us (the consumers) by simply playing name games and shifting parts.

SO here is my hypothetical:
Say GK104 is all they got until Q3, and launches as GTX 670/680 flavors - would you still call it midrange? If competitive it will command similar price to AMD's offering (unless nVidia wants to be charitable and hits them in the knees - we win of course).

Would you call it a mid-range part? Just curious.

 

[RussianSensation]

You also don't call the GTX 480 the second fastest in the line up - that's hindsight AFTER GTX 580 launched. When GTX 480 launched it was the flagship, for the "40nm" generation as you'd put it. But when GTX 480 came out, GTX 480 was now 2nd fastest, yet still flagship for it's generation.

GTX580 is a refresh of GTX480.

So if NV launched GTX460 first (and it beat out GTX285) and waited 6 months to launch GTX480, I'd still call GTX460 a mid-range card. If GTX480 launched in 6 months later and NV relabelled it as a GTX580, I'd still call GTX460 a mid-range card. That's because GTX460 is a mid-size 40nm Fermi generation chip, priced mid-range vs. 40nm High-end product = exact definition of mid-range product.

Again, this is why I say go by pricing - name/specs, they can change easily.

You would think so, but looking at high-end headphone market tells you otherwise. Sennheiser's previous high-end headphones were HD650 and could be bought for $400-500. Then HD700 launched for $999. Is that the new Sennheiser high-end? No, it's their new upper-midrange. The high-end is HD800s for $1499. What happened is audiophiles were content with paying more for high-end hi-fi gear, so Sennheiser just raised prices. It used to be that high-end Sennheiser headphones were $500-650 and suddenly they became $1500 because consumers were willing to spend that much.

What used to be $200-300 mid-range headphones is now $500-600 headphones. The definition of what mid-range pricing is was redefined by what the market now considers a new acceptable mid-range price for headphones.

That's why toyota keept stressing, if GPU makers follow this trend (i.e., of high-end headphone makers), every faster card will cost more and more than before. GK104 beats HD7950 so it must cost $500, then GK110 beats HD7970, so it must cost $650, then HD8790 beats GK110, so it must cost $799, etc. See the flaw in that logic?

A part should be measured how it performs and how much it costs relative to other SKUs in its line/generation.

So if GK104 is $400 and GK110 is $800, that still makes GK104 mid-range. All it means is the market is willing to pay more for videocards than it did before. If AMD and NV think the market will bare $400-450 for new mid-range cards and $650-700 for new high-end cards, then $250-300 can no longer be used to justify mid-range GPUs. But we don't know until GK104 launches.

Would you call it a mid-range part? Just curious.

Right now, I think HD7950/GTX580 is where I would expect a next generation upper-mid-range card to be in terms of performance. AMD priced such a card at $450. I am waiting to see if NV agrees with AMD that new mid-range level of performance should be $450 like AMD says it should.

If NV prices their new mid-range GK104 at $450-500 and new high-end GK110 at $650-700, I would still consider GK104 upper-mid-range. All it means is that the definition for mid-range GPUs will have changed from a $200-300 one to a $450-500 for the upcoming generation simply because GPU makers are seeing that enthusiasts are willing to pay more. Right now people buying HD7950 have no problem paying $500 for it. But normally the level of performance HD7950 offers would only be considered upper-mid-range for any other generation. This is a perfect example of how consumers are willing to pay MORE. Which is exactly why so many people here think it's either a huge rip-off or a huge change of the guard for GPU pricing from GPU makers. If NV thinks upper-mid-range GPUs should cost $350-400, then GK104 will be $399, etc.

But I don't believe GK104 @ $550 will happen. We'll see.

 

[railven]

GTX580 is a refresh of GTX480.

So if NV launched GTX460 first (and it beat out GTX285) and waited 6 months to launch GTX480, I'd still call GTX460 a mid-range card. If GTX480 launched in 6 months later and NV relabelled it as a GTX580, I'd still call GTX460 a mid-range card. That's because GTX460 is a mid-size 40nm Fermi generation chip, priced mid-range vs. 40nm High-end product = exact definition of mid-range product.

Okay, so using your scenario - if GTX 460 is launched as GTX 480 - is it mid range? All specs are equal minus the name?

And you are again speaking in hindsight. If during the GTX 4 series, what we now know as the GTX 460 - was the GTX 480, would you still call it mid range in retrospect to nVidia's offering?

You could argue you expect something else, but without a definitive, you are making assumptions.

You would think so, but looking at high-end headphone market tells you otherwise. Sennheiser's previous high-end headphones were HD650 and could be bought for $400-500. Then HD700 launched for $999. Is that the new Sennheiser high-end? No, it's their new upper-midrange. The high-end is HD800s for $1499. What happened is audiophiles were content with paying more for high-end hi-fi gear, so Sennheiser just raised prices.

What used to be $200-300 mid-range headphones is now $500-600 headphones. The definition of what mid-range pricing is was redefined by what the market now considers a new acceptable mid-range price for headphones.

Again, you are not even trying to answer my question and are instead moving my goal posts.

Using these headphones (sorry I don't follow that equipment) if that new top end model was that - just the top. Say the company had no intentions of releasing something else (or at least made no announcements to) - would you call it mid-range relative to its line up?

That's why toyota keept stressing, if GPU makers follow this trend (i.e., of high-end headphone makers), every faster card will cost more and more than before. GK104 beats HD7950 so it must cost $500, then GK110 beats HD7970, so it must cost $650, then HD8790 beats GK110, so it must cost $799, etc. See the flaw in that logic?

I get that logic, and that logic has existed for years but hasn't been sustained. Do we all just forget the infamous $850 8800 Ultra? Is that just forgotten? The markets will respond, and if the markets sustain it - then all hail the new pricing pyrimad, until then it's just gloom "what if's" based on nothing more but a simple negative reaction to pricing.

Normally when a card beats another, the price is reduced - normally and with age. Not sure WHY GTX 580 saw no price drops, but hey - the markets sustained it. Doesn't mean HD 7970 will maintain its price point.

A part should be measured how it performs relative to other parts in its line/generation.

Define generation? We've had different nodes in the same family name (HD 4K series) and we've had different tweaks in architectures in the same family name (HD 6K series).

Do we set the generations based on the chips we know them by or the family names?

If performance is all that dictates what category a part fits to, we get these curve balls like GTX 465, and then HD 5830.

So if GK104 is $400 and GK110 is $800, that still makes GK104 mid-range. All it means is the market is willing to pay more for videocards than it did before. If AMD and NV think the market will bare $400-450 for new mid-range cards and $650-700 for new high-end cards, then $250-300 can no longer be used to justify mid-range GPUs. But we don't know until GK104 launches.

Again, until that happens (ie GK100 launches) would you still call GK104, if it launches with the GTX 680 name, a mid-range part?

Would you call it a mid-range part? Just curious.

Anything in the $200-299 price bracket. I'd call Performance $300-400 and enthusiast $450+. Entry would be <$100 and mainstream $100-199.

Right now, I think HD7950/GTX580 is where I would expect a next generation mid-range card to be. AMD priced such a card at $450. If NV prices their new mid-range GK104 at $450-500 and new high-end GK110 at $800-900, I would still consider GK104 mid-range. All it means is that the definition for mid-range GPU has changed from a $200-300 one to a $450-500 simply because GPU enthusiasts are paying more.

But I don't believe GK104 @ $550 will happen. We'll see.

And you based this only on the notion that there is a possible bigger product in the pipeline? What if that product doesn't materialize? Just curious.

It seems we shift names as easily as the corporations due.

 

[f1sherman]

I am seeing information out of China this morning showing 45% to 50% performance increase over 580 in canned benchmarks.

http://75.126.99.220/showpost.php?p=1038447903&postcount=437

 

[96Firebird]

Anything in the $200-299 price bracket. I'd call Performance $300-400 and enthusiast $450+. Entry would be <$100 and mainstream $100-199.

So AMD only had 1 enthusiast card during the 6000s series? And only 1 performance card?

 

[railven]

So AMD only had 1 enthusiast card during the 6000s series? And only 1 performance card?

Sure. Is something wrong with that?

 

[96Firebird]

And now they have at least 2, with a third being released soon, enthusiast cards? Boy, what a shift in strategy...

 

[Keysplayr]

http://75.126.99.220/showthread.php?t=1662489&page=23

That's interesting.
/captain jack sparrow voice

 

[railven]

And now they have at least 2, with a third being released soon, enthusiast cards? Boy, what a shift in strategy...

What's wrong kettle? It's not like how I like to think of them affects anything except how I express my opinions about them. Oh well.

 

[96Firebird]

Just trying to get my head around how you think cards are ranked, no need to get immature with the whole "kettle" thing.

 

[GaiaHunter]

Bro, have you not realized how things are shifting around in the world? We're paying MORE for stuff nowadays. Why do people act like GPUs are free from the economic crysis P) the rest of the world is seeing?

Technically we are paying the same or even less, the money is simply worth less.

At least the money controlled by governments.

If you use non government regulated money, like gold, 1 ounce gold coin that could buy you a $400 card 5 years ago can now buy you 3x 7970.

 

[tviceman]

http://75.126.99.220/showpost.php?p=1038447903&postcount=437 I am seeing information out of China this morning showing 45% to 50% performance increase over 580 in canned benchmarks.

So probably more like 20-25% in "uncanned" benchmarks. So in other words, Nvidia's mid-range chip is going to match AMD's current best chip in performance. Nvidia did a good job with their last mid-range chip (GF114) exceeding their previous flagship (GT200b) by a considerable margin, despite having less memory bandwidth.

gtx560ti memory bandwidth = 128 gb/s
gtx285 memory bandwidth = 159 gb/s

While I would like to have seen faster memory speeds in the rumored specs, it doesn't particularly worry me.

 

[GaiaHunter]

So probably more like 20-25% in "uncanned" benchmarks. So in other words, Nvidia's mid-range chip is going to match AMD's current best chip.

Actually it will be the top NVIDIA card unless I'm missing some other cards.

 

[Elfear]

http://75.126.99.220/showpost.php?p=1038447903&postcount=437

If true, this would fall into the very rare category of the new gen = SLI last-gen. In this case GTX660Ti = SLI 560Ti. Would be sweet if true but seems doubtful.

 

[boxleitnerb]

GK104 is not Nvidia's best card. Sigh...

 

[tviceman]

Actually it will be the top NVIDIA card unless I'm missing some other cards.

It will be their top card when it comes out, but a few months later they will be releasing the true successor for the high end cards.

 

[AtenRa]

I believe this cards MSRP will be max at $299.

The PCB design is very simple with only 5 VRMs and 256-bit memory controller will need fewer PCB layers. If TDP will be lower than 200W then the heat-sink could be cheaper lowering the overall manufacturing price of the card.

I dont expect this card to be faster than HD7970. More likely close to GTX580/HD7950 but it will loose at higher AA levels due to 256-bit and fewer ROPs ??

I still believe that GK100 will be launched first (probably a paper launch like HD7970).