[Techradar] The forgotten API: just what is going on with DX12?

[Atreidin]

DX12 and its adoption rate have been trashed by the ignorant since before its release. [redacted] How about an article titled, "Why are people irrationally attached to DX11 (or against DX12)?"

Politics are off topic in this forum.
-- stahlhart

 

[TheELF]

Well, people were lead to believe, by game devs,that the transition to x86 in the consoles plus dx12 on desktop would mean (almost) zero porting so effectively every new game coming out would be dx12.
Only M$ kinda sorta does this and get's much hate for this.
Every other dev takes their console low level game and bolts on dx11 for windows and then maybe put's in a dx12 path again as well.

I for one feel like I'm being cheated...on the other hand I get it since there is much less benefit for the strong desktop CPUs.

 

[tamz_msc]

So unless Microsoft's goal of 1 billion devices running Windows 10 is realized and people start adopting Windows 10 at a much faster rate - the situation will remain like this - most games with a DX11 base and patched in DX12 support.

The only way out of this is Vulkan, but as I said earlier, not likely to happen any time soon. Nearly all major game engines - Unreal, Unity, CryEngine - support OpenGL/Vulkan. But how many developers are there who shun DirectX entirely and only develop with those APIs?

 

[bystander36]

So unless Microsoft's goal of 1 billion devices running Windows 10 is realized and people start adopting Windows 10 at a much faster rate - the situation will remain like this - most games with a DX11 base and patched in DX12 support.

The only way out of this is Vulkan, but as I said earlier, not likely to happen any time soon. Nearly all major game engines - Unreal, Unity, CryEngine - support OpenGL/Vulkan. But how many developers are there who shun DirectX entirely and only develop with those APIs?

DX9 optional paths existed a long time after DX11 was going strong. The same will likely be the case with DX12. The X-Factor is Vulkan could take over if it is the better option.

 

[itsmydamnation]

What people are missing ( unless i missed it ont he second page) is that DX12 is missing the key thing to leverage all the features of DX12 and thats a new shader model.

Every other version of DX had a shader model to go along with it, right now we are using a shader model designed for DX11 on DX12 so none of the new GFX features can really be used we just get the multi-threading benefits etc.

So the question is what the hell was/is MS doing in regards to the new shader model. Once we have the new shader model and actual new things can be done then we will start to see more DX12 games and games that do things in DX12 that are just to costly/can't to do in DX11/SM5.

 

[Bacon1]

What people are missing ( unless i missed it ont he second page) is that DX12 is missing the key thing to leverage all the features of DX12 and thats a new shader model.

SM6 came out with the Win 10 Anniversary update.

 

[beginner99]

There is a great post regarding this from Sebbi (Sebastian Aaltonen - Graphics engineer @RedLynx) on Beyond3D forums

Don't worry, the dx12 haters (aka NV fanboys) will simply ignore this obvious truth. I wonder why we even need this to be told by such an expert. It's obvious this is necessary. You can't profit much from DX12 if the game/engine is also compatible with dx11. Completely different paradigms. That's why even AotS doesn't really see much gains on NV with DX12. It still has the compatibility built in.

We need DX12/Vulkan only game engines with 0 backwards compatibility. This means a full engine rewrite. It's obvious this will take years to happen. Companies don't just throw out their legacy code easily and rightly so. It will be after 2020 till we see the first real dx12 game.

I still remember the days when DX12 was hyped up on these forums, looks like reality has set in.

See above. It was always clear it will take ages for dx12/Vulkan to really shine. But it was a needed change of paradigm.

And this. Who pissed in your Cheerios this morning? Tone the rhetoric down.

-- stahlhart

 

[SlickR12345]

Best example of what a low level API can do for a slow low core count CPU is Dota 2 because they have a terrible Dx driver that gobbles up large amounts of CPU cycles,
~10-15% in this video and because the game only runs 3 threads plus driver you won't see any benefit on a 4 core CPU.
AAA titles have a much smaller driver usage so the benefits are also much smaller.
(Unless they use better commands that are faster)

That is a terrible comparison of two different games, with different heroes, times, items, spells, and everything. He should have done it on a replay and check the cpu usage at the same game time and space. Not this bullshit of two different games.

From what I've seen the difference between vulkan, dx9 and dx11 is meaningless in Dota 2. Overall same fps, maybe up to 3fps difference usually for the dx9 renderer.

Don't worry, the dx12 haters (aka NV fanboys) will simply ignore this obvious truth. I wonder why we even need this to be told by such an expert. It's obvious this is necessary. You can't profit much from DX12 if the game/engine is also compatible with dx11. Completely different paradigms. That's why even AotS doesn't really see much gains on NV with DX12. It still has the compatibility built in.

We need DX12/Vulkan only game engines with 0 backwards compatibility. This means a full engine rewrite. It's obvious this will take years to happen. Companies don't just throw out their legacy code easily and rightly so. It will be after 2020 till we see the first real dx12 game.



See above. It was always clear it will take ages for dx12/Vulkan to really shine. But it was a needed change of paradigm.

Which poses the obvious question, how much would the 400 series really gain when such an engine is as you said years away and I agree. We might see some sort of tech demo or half baked game that is mostly a tech demo for DX12 game engine, but nothing more in the foreseeable future.

So what really are the gains of a more DX12 friendly GPU like the 480, when pure DX12 is years away? By the time DX12 starts becoming relevant and we see pure engines for DX12, neither the 480 or the 1060 would cut it.

Sure the 480 might be a bit more future proof, but I suspect it won't really matter that much 3 years from now.

 

[beginner99]

Sure the 480 might be a bit more future proof, but I suspect it won't really matter that much 3 years from now.

The 4gb 480 is usually cheaper than the 6gb 1060 and 3 gb1060 is just nor cutting it due to too little RAM.

EDIT: I assume you are unclear why one then should prefer the RX 480. Because its cheaper.

 

[96Firebird]

See above. It was always clear it will take ages for dx12/Vulkan to really shine. But it was a needed change of paradigm.

Just another "wait and see" I guess, but some here are so used to waiting they'll keep waiting until the next best thing is on the horizon. Then wait for that.

And in case you forgot about all the hype...

http://www.portvapes.co.uk/?id=Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps&exid=thread...dx12-is-a-gamechanger-for-pc-and-amd.2430766/

 

[bononos]

DX12 and its adoption rate have been trashed by the ignorant since before its release. Yet another Trumped-up headline that implies the opposite of reality. How about an article titled, "Why are people irrationally attached to DX11 (or against DX12)?"

Probably because dx12 favours the GCN architecture and Nvidia is having to play catchup for a change. I expect Nvidia to fully up to speed by the next gen and then the tune will change to - DX12 is a great thing for gamers everywhere.

 

[beginner99]

Just another "wait and see" I guess, but some here are so used to waiting they'll keep waiting until the next best thing is on the horizon. Then wait for that.

And in case you forgot about all the hype...

http://www.portvapes.co.uk/?id=Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps&exid=thread...dx12-is-a-gamechanger-for-pc-and-amd.2430766/

It's not another wait and see. It's the only wait and see. Current dx12/Vulkan games are pigs with lipstick. It's still a pig. It was obvious and the fact a graphical engineer confirms that should make you believe it or at least give it some credit and do some research (Not that NV social marketers care about the truth...)

 

[96Firebird]

(Not that NV social marketers care about the truth...)

Oh, you're just another troll? Meh, not worth my time.

 

[bystander36]

Probably because dx12 favours the GCN architecture and Nvidia is having to play catchup for a change. I expect Nvidia to fully up to speed by the next gen and then the tune will change to - DX12 is a great thing for gamers everywhere.

Do we really know this. One feature, one of many seems to favor AMD atm (asycronis compute), but once the dev's start fully taking advantage of DX12, more and more features will be explored, and they may not all favor AMD.

 

[2is]

There are many reasons.

1) It's a long and complex process
2) Development time
3) Limited to Windows 10
4) Very limited benefits (so far) works well on AMD hardware which has a small minority of the market share, and only really shows a benefit on Pascal GPU's from nVidia

Combine all those factors and it's going to take a lot longer than 1-2 years for the market to be saturated with DX12 titles.

 

[zinfamous]

I still remember the days when DX12 was hyped up on these forums, looks like reality has set in.

not the one you want, though, if you followed the rest of the thread up until this post of yours....

 

[Pottuvoi]

What people are missing ( unless i missed it ont he second page) is that DX12 is missing the key thing to leverage all the features of DX12 and thats a new shader model.

Every other version of DX had a shader model to go along with it, right now we are using a shader model designed for DX11 on DX12 so none of the new GFX features can really be used we just get the multi-threading benefits etc.

So the question is what the hell was/is MS doing in regards to the new shader model. Once we have the new shader model and actual new things can be done then we will start to see more DX12 games and games that do things in DX12 that are just to costly/can't to do in DX11/SM5.

Shader Model 6 is finally coming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcDDvoauaz0
https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=A4B8...1D9E9A!170&parId=A4B88088C01D9E9A!106&o=OneUp (Slides)

Lot of great new features which will help developers to get better quality.
AMD and Nvidia have been releasing extensions as well, to allow better use of resources.

 

[Bacon1]

Shader Model 6 is finally coming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcDDvoauaz0
https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=A4B88088C01D9E9A&id=A4B88088C01D9E9A!170&parId=A4B88088C01D9E9A!106&o=OneUp (Slides)

Lot of great new features which will help developers to get better quality.
AMD and Nvidia have been releasing extensions as well, to allow better use of resources.

FYI:

SM6 came out with the Win 10 Anniversary update.