[techreport] BenQ's XL2730Z 'FreeSync' monitor reviewed

raghu78

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2012
4,093
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TR has its freesync review up. There is so much difference between what TR is telling and what pcper told us about how freesync handles refresh at below the min rate of the variable refresh rate window.

http://techreport.com/review/28073/...ewed?preview=8b4bb4ec15bbabd937c955a0bff2f2ae

" Some reports have suggested that when the frame-to-frame interval on a FreeSync display grows too long, the display responds by "locking" into a 40Hz refresh rate, essentially quantizing updates at multiples of 25 ms. Doing so would be pretty poor behavior, because quantization at 25 ms steps would mean horribly janky animation. You'd be making the worst of an already bad situation where the attached PC was running up against its own performance limitations. However, such talk is kind of nonsense on the face of it, since we're dealing with a variable-refresh display working in concert with a GPU that's producing frames at an irregular rate. What happens in such cases differs between FreeSync and G-Sync, but neither solution's behavior is terribly problematic.

Let's start with how G-Sync handles it. I talked with Nvidia's Tom Petersen about this question, since he's made some public comments on this matter that I wanted to understand. Such talk is kind of nonsense on the face of it, since we're dealing with a variable-refresh display working in concert with a GPU that's producing frames at an irregular rate.

Petersen explained that sorting out the timing of a variable-refresh scheme can be daunting when the wait for a new frame from the graphics card exceeds the display's maximum wait time. The obvious thing to do is to refresh the display again with a copy of the last frame. Trouble is, the very act of painting the screen takes some time, and it's quite possible the GPU have a new frame ready while the refresh is taking place. If that happens, you have a collision, with two frames contending for the same resource.

Nvidia has built some logic into its G-Sync control module that attempts to avoid such collisions. This logic uses a moving average of the past couple of GPU frame times in order to estimate what the current GPU frame-to-frame interval is likely to be. If the estimated interval is expected to exceed the display's max refresh time, the G-Sync module will preemptively refresh the display part way through the wait, rather than letting the LCD reach the point where it must be refreshed immediately.

This preemptive refresh "recharges" the LCD panel and extends its ability to wait for the next GPU frame. If the next frame arrives in about the same time as the last one, then this "early" refresh should pay off by preventing a collision between a new frame and a gotta-have-it-now refresh.

I asked AMD's David Glen, one of the engineers behind FreeSync, about how AMD's variable-refresh scheme handles this same sort of low-FPS scenario. The basic behavior is similar to G-Sync's. If the wait for a new frame exceeds the display's tolerance, Glen said, "we show the frame again, and show it at the max rate the monitor supports." Once the screen has been painted, which presumably takes less than 6.94 ms on a 144Hz display, the monitor should be ready to accept a new frame at any time.

What FreeSync apparently lacks is G-Sync's added timing logic to avoid collisions. However, FreeSync is capable of operating with vsync disabled outside of the display's refresh range. In the event of a collision with a required refresh, Glen pointed out, FreeSync can optionally swap to a new frame in the middle of that refresh. So FreeSync is not without its own unique means of dealing with collisions. Then again, the penalty for a collision with vsync enabled should be pretty minor. (My sense is that FreeSync should just paint the screen again with the new frame as soon as the current refresh ends.)

Everything I've just explained may seem terribly complicated, but the bottom line is straightforward. FreeSync's logic for handling low-FPS situations isn't anywhere near as bad as some folks have suggested, and it isn't all that different from G-Sync's. Nvidia's method of avoiding collisions seems like it might be superior in some ways, but we're talking about small differences
."
 

wand3r3r

Diamond Member
May 16, 2008
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Thanks for posting that.

PCPer AKA NV's mouthpiece cannot be trusted to give unbiased information regarding AMD (nor NV since they are trying to make them look good). See the FCAT scandal, pretending to develop software to test smoothness, well it turns out they got it from NV to make AMD look bad at the time. Now that NV isn't any better, possibly worse by those metrics, they avoid using it much.

I like to see that they actually attempt to figure out what is going on instead of simply taking NV marketing material and pass it off as a review. Doesn't sound as bad as NV marketing (PC Per) tries to make it out to be.
 

Stuka87

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2010
6,240
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Good review, and good to see them post some details about the differences. I have not seen the two side by side, but from what I have read people are unable to visually see the difference.
 

SoulWager

Member
Jan 23, 2013
155
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Yes, the monitor is supposed to be able to accept a new frame after the 7ms refresh, but that can't happen unless the driver actually sends that next new frame. It's pretty silly that they drew their conclusions without actually testing that.

It wouldn't be particularly hard to test either, just move the mouse around while the monitor is below the VRR window, and it should be obvious if the drivers are waiting too long after a repeat to send a newly finished frame. If it's working as claimed in this article, the cursor will update at 0ms, 25ms, 33ms, 58ms, 67ms, 74ms, etc. as frames are finishing at 0ms, 33ms, 67ms, etc. So when you move the cursor across a black background, a long exposure would see the movment intervals for short/long refreshes, i.e. the cursor would show up in pairs. If it's working as pcper describes, the cursor will show up only once every 25ms, with even spacing.
 

maniacalpha1-1

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2010
3,562
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I'm going to wait on TFT Central's more detailed input lag review before actually ordering, but I think I'm sold on this one.

Of course this dooms me to waiting on 390 or 390X for upgrading my 7970.
 

SoulWager

Member
Jan 23, 2013
155
0
71
Thanks for posting that.

PCPer AKA NV's mouthpiece cannot be trusted to give unbiased information regarding AMD (nor NV since they are trying to make them look good). See the FCAT scandal, pretending to develop software to test smoothness, well it turns out they got it from NV to make AMD look bad at the time. Now that NV isn't any better, possibly worse by those metrics, they avoid using it much.

I like to see that they actually attempt to figure out what is going on instead of simply taking NV marketing material and pass it off as a review. Doesn't sound as bad as NV marketing (PC Per) tries to make it out to be.

PCPer actually tested the behavior, techreport appears to be taking AMD's word for it. It's completely ridiculous to trust AMD's representation here without actually testing it.
 

SoulWager

Member
Jan 23, 2013
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You can see a difference between FreeSync and G-Sync in a contrived scenario involving a fixed frame rate below 40Hz. To record the video above, I ran Nvidia's "Pendulum" demo side by side on the XL2730Z and a G-Sync display, with the demo locked to 30 FPS on both systems. In this case, G-Sync's collision avoidance logic looks to be pretty effective, granting a marginal improvement in animation smoothness over the BenQ FreeSync monitor.

Wait just a minute here. 25ms + 7ms = 32ms. 30fps = 33ms The freesync monitor should be displaying new frames exactly on time here, just like the g-sync monitor. What gives?
 

AnandThenMan

Diamond Member
Nov 11, 2004
3,949
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What is actually ridiculous is trusting PCPer for any unbiased info regarding AMD. They have proven this over and over again and they now have no credibility. Contrast the extremely negative PCPer review with Tech Report, and it is not an isolated thing you can count on PCPer to be as negative as possible for anything Radeon related. It comes through in their videos as well Ryan Shrout in particular is a huge Nvidia apologist that's about the nicest way I can put it.

From the Techreport review:
Spending time with a FreeSync monitor and walking through the gauntlet of supposed issues has crystallized my thoughts about some things. AMD and its partners have succeeded in bringing variable refresh technology to market using an open, collaborative approach. The concerns we've seen raised about niggling problems with FreeSync displays in specific cases, such as low-FPS scenarios and ghosting, are really nibbling around the edges. Yes, at the end of the day, the G-Sync-infused Asus ROG Swift PG278Q is slightly superior to the XL2730Z in certain corner cases. But I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the XL2730Z, especially since it costs less than the Asus. The XL2730Z would be a huge upgrade for most gamers.

In fact, the BenQ XL2730Z is good enough that I think it's time for the rest of the industry to step up and support the VESA standard for variable refresh rates.
Contrast the slightly superior statement to what PCPer had to say. I think people with any sort of objectivity can see PCPer cannot be seen as a neutral source of info.
 
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SoulWager

Member
Jan 23, 2013
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What is actually ridiculous is trusting PCPer for any unbiased info regarding AMD. They have proven this over and over again and they now have no credibility. Contrast the extremely negative PCPer review with Tech Report, and it is not an isolated thing you can count on PCPer to be as negative as possible for anything Radeon related. It comes through in their videos as well Ryan Shrout in particular is a huge Nvidia apologist that's about the nicest way I can put it.

From the review:

Contrast the slightly superior statement to what PCPer had to say. I think people with any sort of objectivity can see PCPer cannot be seen as a neutral source of info.
I am NOT talking about subjective statements, I'm talking about factual representation of behavior below 40fps.
 

wasabiman123

Member
May 28, 2013
132
1
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Is pcper really that biased? It's not like their testing/results were patently false, it's not catastrophic for Shrout to prefer NVIDIA stuff in contemporary times.
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
11,172
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I am NOT talking about subjective statements, I'm talking about factual representation of behavior below 40fps.

........with specificaly a monitor that has a panel that cant get technicaly below 40fps refresh rate, isnt it, the very one reviewed by PCper for the purpose of viral marketing...
 

SoulWager

Member
Jan 23, 2013
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........with specificaly a monitor that has a panel that cant get technicaly below 40fps refresh rate, isnt it, the very one reviewed by PCper for the purpose of viral marketing...
AMD claims missing a frame deadline causes a 7ms lockout, PCPer's testing demonstrates a 25ms lockout. This article basically says PCPer is wrong, but without actually testing the issue, just taking AMD's word on it.

This is an AMD driver problem that AMD is trying to deny exists.
 

Flapdrol1337

Golden Member
May 21, 2014
1,677
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It kind of has to be a 7ms max lockout on a 144hz screen. Freesync doesn't change the time it takes to do a refresh.

gsync not as juddery at low fps because they try to predict when the next frame shows up, do a pre-emptive refresh to make a lockout unlikely.
 
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3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
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Good review, and good to see them post some details about the differences. I have not seen the two side by side, but from what I have read people are unable to visually see the difference.

Unless they are displaying their banking statement. Then the difference is obvious.
 

SoulWager

Member
Jan 23, 2013
155
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71
It kind of has to be a 7ms max lockout on a 144hz screen. Freesync doesn't change the time it takes to do a refresh.

gsync not as juddery at low fps because they try to predict when the next frame shows up, do a pre-emptive refresh to make a lockout unlikely.

The monitor doesn't change the time it takes to do a refresh, but the driver won't send a new frame for another 18ms after the monitor is done with the repeat. It's definitely a bug, and AMD's behavior here is really suspicious.
 

Leadbox

Senior member
Oct 25, 2010
744
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AMD claims missing a frame deadline causes a 7ms lockout, PCPer's testing demonstrates a 25ms lockout. This article basically says PCPer is wrong, but without actually testing the issue, just taking AMD's word on it.

This is an AMD driver problem that AMD is trying to deny exists.
It refreshes once every 25ms when below the minimum VRR . Scan out time remains optimal, so ~7ms. Now if I understood the AMD guy who posts on beyond3d right, if a new frame comes 1/144 of a second after the last bit of the current frame is sent, then they send blanking data triggering the scanout of the newest frame.
 

bystander36

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2013
5,154
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Did any of you that are claiming bias, read the article? They are vary favorable towards AMD's freesync. They said they think Nvidia will eventually be forced to use it, and while they did acknowledge Nvidia's slightly better features, they didn't think you could see the difference except in rare cases if you are looking for it.

Just how was this article unfair towards AMD's new product?
 

ocre

Golden Member
Dec 26, 2008
1,594
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It kind of has to be a 7ms max lockout on a 144hz screen. Freesync doesn't change the time it takes to do a refresh.

gsync not as juddery at low fps because they try to predict when the next frame shows up, do a pre-emptive refresh to make a lockout unlikely.

So here is the problem i see and it is pretty big. if you go from pumping out frames around 42fps the refresh is 42Hz, you follow? Going from 42Hz to 144Hz will be seen as a huge sudden flash, as higher refreshes are perceived as brighter to out eyes. The energy level is increased in a flash. Also, our brains are very much in tune to sudden flashes. You cannot get around that, going from 40hz to 144 hz is not ideal nor would it be pleasant. Think about it. If you are gaming and it is close to the lower end of the range.............
Think about it. Say your lower limit is 44hz and you are gaming on a 144mhz free-sync monitor. Say you are at a demanding scene, the frame rate dips to 45 and below. If freesync does what this article says, then wow. Cause you would be alternating between 44-45hz blast to 144hz, then back to 45hz, back up to 144hz. Cause once the driver jumps to 144hz, your game is still playing in a struggling scene.
The outcome would be an unpleasant mess.

If it is true, then it makes perfect sense why the first freesync monitors had such an odd range in refresh rates. wasnt some like 40-75hz? See, that wouldnt be nearly as bad on you. Just think, 40 to 144 is over 3 times the intensity, immediately. And it will be back and forth as your computer struggles to pump out the frames in this demanding scene. 40-75hz will be an increase in intensity, but nothing like +3x the intensity.

I would also like to say that the PCper test is flawed as well. When you game, or play games, the fps is variable. From one frame to the next, its not the same. Variable refresh monitors follow the graphics card refresh, which is not consistent when gaming. It will jump around, that is just all there is to it.
The PCper test was using an app that set the fps to a steady and consistent number. Games dont work that way unless you have some sort of vsync on. In their defense, you wouldnt be able to get any meaning ful reading with the Oscope had they really been playing a game. The waves wouldnt have been nicely represented on the screen. It would have been a crazy mess, bouncing all over the place as the frame times fluctuated.

PCper did try to come up with some alternate way of looking into the ineer workings. But the very controlled fixed frame rate they used to represent gaming, well.......

it is artificial. Some might even say unrealistic.

I wouldnt say it is completely meaningless or there is nothing we can get out of it. You just have to realize that Gsync module will only divide out once and back to the GPU. It will not be a steady divide like that, perfect because games dont work like that. That perfect dividing out, its simulated. It only will happen if your frame rate is steady and paced perfectly between each other. That is not a gaming environment.

The truth is, the only way to really know what Gsync or Freesync is like for youself is to check it out yourself. Reviewers can give us their experience but we are talking about an experience here. And that is something very subjective to the individual
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
11,172
3,869
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So here is the problem i see and it is pretty big. if you go from pumping out frames around 42fps the refresh is 42Hz, you follow? Going from 42Hz to 144Hz will be seen as a huge sudden flash, as higher refreshes are perceived as brighter to out eyes. The energy level is increased in a flash. Also, our brains are very much in tune to sudden flashes. You cannot get around that, going from 40hz to 144 hz is not ideal nor would it be pleasant.

All this is wrong..

If you have a 25ms frames and that you push a single 7ms frame between two 25ms frame you wont see any difference because the previous 25ms frame is no more here, you ll have 7ms of a frame and then it will be succeded by a 25ms frame.

All your "demonstration" is assuming that a 7ms frame is added to a 25ms frame, indeed i rarely did read such scientificaly senseless bs.

What else.?.
 

bystander36

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2013
5,154
132
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All this is wrong..

If you have a 25ms frames and that you push a single 7ms frame between two 25ms frame you wont see any difference because the previous 25ms frame is no more here, you ll have 7ms of a frame and then it will be succeded by a 25ms frame.

All your "demonstration" is assuming that a 7ms frame is added to a 25ms frame, indeed i rarely did read such scientificaly senseless bs.

What else.?.

He obviously misunderstands what they are doing, and what the actual problem is.

In the example given. Let's say that a frame takes 26ms (worst case scenario), freesync will force a refresh at the 25ms point, adding a minimum of 7ms to the same frames visible time. This results in that 26ms frame, actually being displayed for 32ms, which is not ideal, but not the traumatic experience of going from 25ms to 7ms frames. They are the same frame, so it is just some added duration to an existing frame.
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
11,172
3,869
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He obviously misunderstands what they are doing, and what the actual problem is.

In the example given. Let's say that a frame takes 26ms (worst case scenario), freesync will force a refresh at the 25ms point, adding a minimum of 7ms to the same frames visible time. This results in that 26ms frame, actually being displayed for 32ms, which is not ideal, but not the traumatic experience of going from 25ms to 7ms frames. They are the same frame, so it is just some added duration to an existing frame.

If there s no added frame then the previous frame will be sustained, there s no added duration in matter of light level as "explained" by Ocre, a frame is replaced by another one, whatever the time during wich it is displayed the luminosity will stay constant.

Only case where there can be a luminosity tear is if a frame is not displayed at all and replaced by a black screen, and still, if it s at high speed the eyes remanence will blur it.
 

bystander36

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2013
5,154
132
106
If there s no added frame then the previous frame will be sustained, there s no added duration in matter of light level as "explained" by Ocre, a frame is replaced by another one, whatever the time during wich it is displayed the luminosity will stay constant.

Only case where there can be a luminosity tear is if a frame is not displayed at all and replaced by a black screen, and still, if it s at high speed the eyes remanence will blur it.

AMD allows for a tear, or the method I mentioned.

Without the tear, you might get up to 7ms added to a frame if it falls below 25ms on one that has a minimum of 40hz. Or at least that is what AMD says is supposed to happen.

When a frame takes longer than 25ms to display, the same frame gets a refresh. It has no idea how long it will be before the next frame is ready, so it made no attempt to refresh earlier than at 25ms of displaying. Given that the fastest a refresh can take place is 7ms, if this happens, that frame is committed to be displayed for at least 32ms. Even if a new frame was ready at 26ms. This is still better than what typically happens with V-sync, but still not as ideal as Nvidia attempts to do by averaging out the previous 2 frames to allow for it to preemptively refresh sooner than 25ms.

ocre is most definitely way off. I agreed on that. I was just trying to explain what actually happens, or is supposed to. Someone earlier was mentioning that it might be adding 25ms to the frame, rather than 7ms. This is not supposed to happen, and should be ironed out fairly easily.
 

SoulWager

Member
Jan 23, 2013
155
0
71
It refreshes once every 25ms when below the minimum VRR . Scan out time remains optimal, so ~7ms. Now if I understood the AMD guy who posts on beyond3d right, if a new frame comes 1/144 of a second after the last bit of the current frame is sent, then they send blanking data triggering the scanout of the newest frame.
How about instead of listening to what AMD has to say, you look at the screen of test equipment hooked up to an actual monitor? Mute the video if you think the reviewers are biased, the correlation between framerate and refresh interval speaks for it's self: https://youtu.be/VkrJU5d2RfA?t=1410
 
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